How can you tell if something is of Spanish or Mexican origin?

[deducer]

For many years we have heard stories, legends, and tales about Spanish and/or Mexican presence in the Superstitions, either in the form of oral tradition, alleged artifacts, and the presence or evidence of activities and/or sites throughout the Superstitions.

Now my question is this: how do you know what's really of Spanish origin and what's actually Mexican?

What's the difference between, say, a Spanish arrastra or a Mexican one? A Spanish hacienda or a Mexican one?

Interested in knowing what everyone thinks.

 

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[sdcfia]

For many years we have heard stories, legends, and tales about Spanish and/or Mexican presence in the Superstitions, either in the form of oral tradition, alleged artifacts, and the presence or evidence of activities and/or sites throughout the Superstitions.

Now my question is this: how do you know what's really of Spanish origin and what's actually Mexican?

What's the difference between, say, a Spanish arrastra or a Mexican one? A Spanish hacienda or a Mexican one?

Interested in knowing what everyone thinks.

Just like the human beings from south of the border didn't change much when "Spanish" became "Mexican", neither did the architecture. Both were heavily influenced by Native methods and materials - early Anglos too, for that matter. The churches are different, as most can be dated in church records, journals, etc. But when you look at scattered mud house ruins, Quien Sabe?

Same goes for arrastras. Same materials, same designs for centuries. Any metal hardware on site may be of help if you can find some. Examining the dragstones could be useful too if you could identify them - were there drilled holes? The Anglos followed suit - they just copied what proceeded them, using rocks and timbers. In Pinos Altos NM mining district, arrastras were used all the way into the 1930s when machine-based milling wasn't readily available. Lots of folks find these and call them "Spanish".

 

[PotBelly Jim]

An interesting subject...I've always wondered about the numerous "arrastra's" found in the desert in and around the Supes. Some, perhaps many, I just don't find all that convincing. These are many times, just stone circles, and they don't look very solid. They could be anything...the remains of an old sweat lodge or other religious thing, or even a stone circle that was used for building a wickieup.

I don't remember where I got this, I apologize but I think it was in an old treasure related newsletter. It was a model of a "Spanish" arrastra at AHS:

The only evidence I've ever found, that I thought might be a smoking gun for an arrastra, was in the 4 peaks near the Salt River...I was out there doing some sample panning on a friend's claim, and we found some pretty large chunks of amalgamated gold in a wash. We did find some possible arrastra sites nearby, but it's also possible it came from a relatively modern "clean-up". Perhaps someone kicked a pan full of mercury and amalgamated gold over...or they were using it to clean up a sluice and it got away from them.

One thing I'd be looking for, as Steve pointed out...where are the drag rocks or rock? If any given site really was an arrastra, it stands to reason that it would have a drag rock/s nearby.

 

[sdcfia]

An interesting subject...I've always wondered about the numerous "arrastra's" found in the desert in and around the Supes. Some, perhaps many, I just don't find all that convincing. These are many times, just stone circles, and they don't look very solid. They could be anything...the remains of an old sweat lodge or other religious thing, or even a stone circle that was used for building a wickieup.

I don't remember where I got this, I apologize but I think it was in an old treasure related newsletter. It was a model of a "Spanish" arrastra at AHS:
View attachment 2138001

The only evidence I've ever found, that I thought might be a smoking gun for an arrastra, was in the 4 peaks near the Salt River...I was out there doing some sample panning on a friend's claim, and we found some pretty large chunks of amalgamated gold in a wash. We did find some possible arrastra sites nearby, but it's also possible it came from a relatively modern "clean-up". Perhaps someone kicked a pan full of mercury and amalgamated gold over...or they were using it to clean up a sluice and it got away from them.

One thing I'd be looking for, as Steve pointed out...where are the drag rocks or rock? If any given site really was an arrastra, it stands to reason that it would have a drag rock/s nearby.

You'll often find just a ring of rock remaining because the smooth flat floor stones and maybe the drag stones and cross bar were removed and reused at another site - the circular standing side wall stones could be easily replaced at the new site. Of course, the dirt under the floor stones was gathered and panned for fine gold. In the 1860s, Arizona Scout James Tevis had 45 arrastras operating on Bear Creek in Pinos Altos.

In more recent times, if polished flat floor stones were found, they ended up in peoples' back yards, as they make for a nice patio - better than flagstone.

Here's a partially rebuilt arrastra near Pinos Altos. A couple floor stones in place.

 

[sdcfia]

Found some more photos I took of arrastra ruins.

First site. Wrecked structure upper left, drag stone center, smooth floor stone lower center.

Two smooth floor stones.

Second site. Side wall remaining front, drag stone center, smooth floor stone on edge behind.

Closeup of floor stone

 

[deducer]

I agree that the terms "Spanish" and "Mexican" have become too interchangeable. Not that they are easily distinguished in the first place, anyway. For example, most Mexicans are considered Mestizos, a mixture of Spanish and indigenous descent. You don't have what is generally considered "Mexican" without Spanish influence.

Since a majority of what is considered Mexican, contain significant Spanish influence, I think it would be hard to tell one from the other, except from a chronological perspective.

If you could date something prior to the early 1800's (when the war for Mexican independence broke out) you could probably consider it Spanish, or heavily influenced by the Spanish.

 

[sdcfia]

I agree that the terms "Spanish" and "Mexican" have become too interchangeable. Not that they are easily distinguished in the first place, anyway. For example, most Mexicans are considered Mestizos, a mixture of Spanish and indigenous descent. You don't have what is generally considered "Mexican" without Spanish influence.

Since a majority of what is considered Mexican, contain significant Spanish influence, I think it would be hard to tell one from the other, except from a chronological perspective.

If you could date something prior to the early 1800's (when the war for Mexican independence broke out) you could probably consider it Spanish, or heavily influenced by the Spanish.

Here's some information about the Spanish fort (literally) at Santa Rita del Cobre copper mine before the mine became open pit. It was originally triangular with torreons (towers) on the corners. Most of it was torn down when the Anglos took over the mine.

In Pinos Altos, a guy built a smaller scale partial replica of the fort back in the 1970s.

 

[deducer]

Here's some information about the Spanish fort (literally) at Santa Rita del Cobre copper mine before the mine became open pit. It was originally triangular with torreons (towers) on the corners. Most of it was torn down when the Anglos took over the mine.
View attachment 2138142

View attachment 2138144


View attachment 2138143

View attachment 2138145

View attachment 2138146

In Pinos Altos, a guy built a smaller scale partial replica of the fort back in the 1970s.
View attachment 2138147

To add to this: forts, garrisons, and presidios would definitely be of Spanish origin. But mines, haciendas, or ranches this far north at the time? My educated guess is, not so much...

Because if so, then they existed or operated without protection from the Spanish authorities or military, which did not like to overextend itself in the Pimeria Alta, when it had so much to deal with in Central Mexico.

There were only three presidios constructed in Arizona: Tubac, Tucson, and Terrrente (present day Sierra Vista).

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

This most valueable Book ever written for all things Spanish and Treasure [metals, build style, navigation, etc, etc].
By: GEORGIUS AGRICOLA
” DE RE METALLICA"
TRANSLATED FROM THE FIRST LATIN EDITION OF 1556
Those that read it can thank me later. This has been very valueable to my research.

PDF attached: 1) https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38015/38015-h/38015-h.htm
2) https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/rare-books/1/
3) https://www.academia.edu/3534141/De_Re_Metallica_Georgius_Agricola_1556

Read Wiki also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_re_metallica

 

[Tesorodeoro]

An interesting subject...I've always wondered about the numerous "arrastra's" found in the desert in and around the Supes. Some, perhaps many, I just don't find all that convincing. These are many times, just stone circles, and they don't look very solid. They could be anything...the remains of an old sweat lodge or other religious thing, or even a stone circle that was used for building a wickieup.

I don't remember where I got this, I apologize but I think it was in an old treasure related newsletter. It was a model of a "Spanish" arrastra at AHS:
View attachment 2138001

The only evidence I've ever found, that I thought might be a smoking gun for an arrastra, was in the 4 peaks near the Salt River...I was out there doing some sample panning on a friend's claim, and we found some pretty large chunks of amalgamated gold in a wash. We did find some possible arrastra sites nearby, but it's also possible it came from a relatively modern "clean-up". Perhaps someone kicked a pan full of mercury and amalgamated gold over...or they were using it to clean up a sluice and it got away from them.

One thing I'd be looking for, as Steve pointed out...where are the drag rocks or rock? If any given site really was an arrastra, it stands to reason that it would have a drag rock/s nearby.

Stones from an arrasta are unmistakable if you understand how it functioned. The stones bear witness to many hours of service.

 

[deducer]

This most valueable Book ever written for all things Spanish and Treasure [metals, build style, navigation, etc, etc].
By: GEORGIUS AGRICOLA
” DE RE METALLICA"
TRANSLATED FROM THE FIRST LATIN EDITION OF 1556
Those that read it can thank me later. This has been very valueable to my research.

PDF attached: 1) https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38015/38015-h/38015-h.htm
2) https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/rare-books/1/
3) https://www.academia.edu/3534141/De_Re_Metallica_Georgius_Agricola_1556

I have this book.

A couple of things to note: It was published in 1556, and was published in Latin. It was the epitome of German mining and engineering at the time and remained the textbook standard for mining in Europe for well over a century afterwards.

But by the time period we are concerned with, the late 18th century, the book had long since fell out of favor as mining technology had evolved substantially by then.

It came back into circulation when it was translated into English in 1912.

It is certainly valuable for understanding 17th century mining technology, but I doubt it would help us distinguish Spanish from Mexican influence.

 

[tamrock]

De Re Metallica. Translated by our 31st President. The man from Iowa. All kinds of folks and not necessarily Mexican or Spanish attempting to mine erected and used arrastras clear into the 20th century. I wouldn't be surprised if some are used somewhere today by some bootstrap miners in some off the chart mining operations.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Stones from an arrasta are unmistakable if you understand how it functioned. The stones bear witness to many hours of service.

Yes, I agree completely. The problem seems to be that any circle of rocks found in or near the Supes tends to be called "arrastras" by some. Most of them don't look like arrastras to me.

I'd bet the farm that any real arrastras in that area have long ago been dismantled, so the finder could process any loose material. If it was rich, that would set off a search for the source of what was being processed in the arrastra. Several such sites that I had found years ago, and had survived well into the 1980's are now long gone.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Yes, I agree completely. The problem seems to be that any circle of rocks found in or near the Supes tends to be called "arrastras" by some. Most of them don't look like arrastras to me.

I'd bet the farm that any real arrastras in that area have long ago been dismantled, so the finder could process any loose material. If it was rich, that would set off a search for the source of what was being processed in the arrastra. Several such sites that I had found years ago, and had survived well into the 1980's are now long gone.

Unfortunately folks think they will come away with ounces of gold from in between the bottom stones. So they deconstruct the structure and leave it a mess. Personally I’ve never heard of anyone striking it rich destroying history.

 

[Clay Diggins]

De Re Metallica. Translated by our 31st President. The man from Iowa. All kinds of folks and not necessarily Mexican or Spanish attempting to mine erected and used arrastras clear into the 20th century. I wouldn't be surprised if some are used somewhere today by some bootstrap miners in some off the chart mining operations.

Not to put Herbert down but actually it was translated by his wife Lou Henry. She was a known Latin scholar and a trained geologist. She was the first degreed female geologist in the United States. She and Herbert both graduated from Stanford with degrees in geology. Herbert went on to become a mine engineer but no one would hire a female geologist to work in the field so she stayed at Stanford and created their world class mineral collection..

Mineral Collection

Stanford School of Earth Sciences: Mineral Collection

pangea.stanford.edu

I think we have someone processing with an arrastra right on this forum.

Prospector

Heavy Duty Hard WORK you be talkin about GT! Be kind to yourself...............63bkpkr

www.treasurenet.com

It works well and it's simple so there will always be someone somewhere using an arrastra.

 

[tamrock]

Not to put Herbert down but actually it was translated by his wife Lou Henry. She was a known Latin scholar and a trained geologist. She was the first degreed female geologist in the United States. She and Herbert both graduated from Stanford with degrees in geology. Herbert went on to become a mine engineer but no one would hire a female geologist to work in the field so she stayed at Stanford and created their world class mineral collection..

Mineral Collection

Stanford School of Earth Sciences: Mineral Collection

pangea.stanford.edu

I think we have someone processing with an arrastra right on this forum.

Prospector

Heavy Duty Hard WORK you be talkin about GT! Be kind to yourself...............63bkpkr

www.treasurenet.com

It works well and it's simple so there will always be someone somewhere using an arrastra.

Well I learned something new today. I just assumed Herbert being a mine engineer did the work. When I was young we'd visit, Hoovers birth home West Branch, IA at times going to my Graddads place in Burlington, IA.

 

[sdcfia]

WarnIng: large aggressive wild animals are roaming the country around Dragoon, AZ.

 

[tamrock]

Not to put Herbert down but actually it was translated by his wife Lou Henry. She was a known Latin scholar and a trained geologist. She was the first degreed female geologist in the United States. She and Herbert both graduated from Stanford with degrees in geology. Herbert went on to become a mine engineer but no one would hire a female geologist to work in the field so she stayed at Stanford and created their world class mineral collection..

Mineral Collection

Stanford School of Earth Sciences: Mineral Collection

pangea.stanford.edu

I think we have someone processing with an arrastra right on this forum.

Prospector

Heavy Duty Hard WORK you be talkin about GT! Be kind to yourself...............63bkpkr

www.treasurenet.com

It works well and it's simple so there will always be someone somewhere using an arrastra.

I found this video of an operation using an arrasta that looks recent. Nothing in the way of any PPE or Personal Protection Equip. is required at this site. This place looks like it has the potential for all kinds of safety hazards, from on the job injuries, contacting an STD to getting a bullet in the in your brain.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

I found this video of an operation using an arrasta that looks recent. Nothing in the way of any PPE or Personal Protection Equip. is required at this site. This place looks like it has the potential for all kinds of safety hazards, from on the job injuries, contacting an STD to getting a bullet in the in your brain.

Agree with the latter hazards for sure. The man busting rocks with the single jack probably learned long ago to coordinate shutting his mouth and closing his eyes with every swing. If he hit his toes, then he’s just stupid.

$3000 in dental work later, I learned to shut my mouth when swinging a pick.

Thanks for sharing. I’d like to have known what his above the table “take” was and how much above that he gets after they leave.

 

[gollum]

Arrastras can still be found and raided! LOL A friend of mine several years ago was part of a group that went to a set of old mines on the North Side of Apache Lake. They found the mines, but the mines weren't the main focus. They were told that the Apache chased the miners out of the area in a hurry. They found an intact arrastra:

They pulled up the floor stones. Dug out about two feet of dirt underneath the floor stones and panned it. They got about $17,000 in gold fines (@ $604 per ounce). Best part about the whole expedition was that they rented a boat from the Apache Lake Marina (mines are North of the Lake). After all their good luck, when they got back to the edge of the lake, they found someone had stolen their rental boat. LOL Greg D. knows the story.

Mike