Hooked Bannerstone

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Sunny Side

Sunny Side

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Sep 15, 2019
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Made of conglomerate quartzite. Collected in 1967. Very rare type. IMG_4034_1.jpgImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1574176252.510806.jpgImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1574176263.964131.jpg
 

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That is neat, what would it have bin used for?
 

I’d be a liar if I knew for sure, but the mainstream thinking is they are atlatal weights.
 

newnan man said:
I always thought the atlatal thing was BS.
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Ditto. Can't imagine that stone being used on an atlatal. You'd think with such a refined shape as the OP's specimen there would be a definitive answer.
 

I agree ... way to much work for just a weight I was lucky enough to find an intact banner this year and holding it in hand makes you appreciate just how much precise craftsmanship was required to make one .... I think they were ceremonial or maybe gifted on special occasions , they have been found buried with remains I don’t think an atlatal weight would be important enough to be buried with.
 

Ones like the hooked example here I believe were atlatl weights, but on presentation grade atlatls that were never used like the plainer ones. I've used the analogy before: you have your rusty, beat up 1911 knocking around in the truck for use around the farm, then you have your engraved, gold-inlaid John Wayne limited edition .45 in a velvet lined case that's never had a finger on the trigger. I have a banner that I have no doubt was used as an atlatl weight, and another I doubt was ever used as one. Same things, different applications.

Exceptional piece by the way, SS.
 

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Holes in the banner stones always seemed too small in diameter for a shaft. The shaft wouldn't be much larger than a pencil. I've seen videos of people using them & it still wasn't real convincing.
 

sandchip said:
Ones like the hooked example here I believe were atlatl weights, but on presentation grade atlatls that were never used like the plainer ones. I've used the analogy before: you have your rusty, beat up 1911 knocking around in the truck for use around the farm, then you have your engraved, gold-inlaid John Wayne limited edition .45 in a velvet lined case that's never had a finger on the trigger. I have a banner that I have no doubt was used as an atlatl weight, and another I doubt was ever used as one. Same things, different applications.

Exceptional piece by the way, SS.
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Indian were hunter gathererers constantly on the verge of extinction. They had little of value and were not generally known as collectors.

If you had a stone you spent hundreds of hours working would you put it on a plain atlatl. Hell no! it would have to go on your John Wayne commemorative atatl stave. Why would you dress up a plain one with all your work? Now what if you make another one? See where I'm going with this? Now you have to start packing your atlatl collection across 1000's of miles as you migrate back and forth. It doesn't seem to jive with what I "think I know" of these cultures.
 

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Paleo Indians were hunter gatherers. Later Indians gradually became more settled, eventually transitiioning to a more agrarian, community based existence. I never said anything about an Indian building a collection. By "presentation grade", I was referring to a special piece made as a gift to someone of great importance in a family or tribe, not for personal use as part of a weapon. Also, if I was making an atlatl as a gift, I wouldn't put a finely shaped stone on a "plain atlatl", but would make the handle and hook that reflected the same attention to detail that the stone did. The diameter of the hole would be of little concern if the atlatl was never expected to be used in hunting. I also believe that some of the large, ornate banners were used as just that, banners, a staff with a stone, feathers, and maybe a large spear to be used in special occasions and ceremonies. I don't doubt that there were hard times and prosperous times, a lot like modern times, but if our Indians were constantly on the verge of extinction, I doubt that we would be enjoying the fine banners, discoidals, fluted axes and finely carved pipes the Sunny Side has been kind enough to share with us.
 

Force_of_Iron said:
Indian were hunter gathererers constantly on the verge of extinction. They had little of value and were not generally known as collectors.

If you had a stone you spent hundreds of hours working would you put it on a plain atlatl. Hell no! it would have to go on your John Wayne commemorative atatl stave. Why would you dress up a plain one with all your work? Now what if you make another one? See where I'm going with this? Now you have to start packing your atlatl collection across 1000's of miles as you migrate back and forth. It doesn't seem to jive with what I "think I know" of these cultures.
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We have been raised to think of natives as savages, with little culture other than that shown on television and taught in history books. As I always say, read "1491" by Charles Mann to get an entirely different perspective on native culture and population estimates. Discoveries are showing that Archaic Indians were not just hunter-gatherers, but also had complex societies (see the Windover excavations in Florida and the archaic burials found in the Gulf of Mexico off Venice Beach).
Also, attached are some pictures of a "weaver's basket" found in Peru, preserved in a cave in the mountains, circa 1100 AD, or about 800 years old.
The "bannerstone" type weights on the spindles are very intriguing. I have also found bannerstones in which the hole drilled through the length is 3/8" in diameter-far too small to be used as an atlatl weight IMO, unless the atlatl was made of carbon fiber. Maybe bannerstones had a dual purpose, as both atlatl weights and spindle whorls.
In any case, it is interesting.
weaver tools1.jpg
weaver tools2.jpg
 

Seems more likely that it would be a "jig", or a tool for making tools (weapons/arrows).
Could also see it as a useful household adornment, sash hold, door knocker/stay, hinge, swivel, livestock accessory, sex toy or whatever...
Mind boggling that NA's can pass down stories for thousands of years but have no idea either...
 

Mind boggling that NA's can pass down stories for thousands of years but have no idea either...
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One elderly NA I knew told me that the Europeans, having already taken everything they considered worth taking, belatedly decided they wanted the NA's religion &c. too.

Not willing to let this happen, whenever an anthropologist came around with a tape recorder & a tablet asking questions they turned him over to the village simpleton, who kept him happily occupied for hours recording stuff like, "Once upon a time, there were three bears . . ."

Not saying that accounts for all of it, but it's definitely the back story to not a little of the "no idea" situation.
 

RW said:
Counterbalance idea seems to work with most stones. How would the OP's stone attach? The curve and perfect angles have to be more than decoration. Smooth out the throw? Make it more consistent? A little added pop at the end?
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As the article said, some were used as atlatl (counter)weights, some were not. There were obviously some talented artisans back then who maybe just wanted to show how fancy and perfect a piece they could make with no intent of it having any utilitarian use. Sometimes one type of object can give someone an idea for something else and what started as one thing evolves into another. Man was just as creative and innovative, if not more so, as he is today. Seems that many try to put a certain type of artifact in a box in that it could only be used for one thing and when certain dimensions of a particular piece would seem to preclude its use as that type, then the entire theory is thrown out instead of taking into consideration that different configurations of the same general artifact category may have been used for entirely different applications.
 

What I gleaned from the article was how much they really don't know. I won't discount anything out of hand but I really think were on the wrong road with the atlatl thing.
 

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