histroy of the cave /tunnel

[Cubfan64]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Cubfan,

"OMG CJ!!!! Get out there and dig!!!"

How do you think I maintain the life style that I do

Joe

Aha - the secret is out now CJ!!! You found the LDM years ago and spend your retirement days reading posts here and chuckling as you drink your Pina Colada in Aruba

I should have known!!!

 

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[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Now Cubfan, don't go jumping to conclusions. No one said anything about the LDM.

My lifestyle includes running two businesses which, by luck, includes the use of a computer. I keep tabs on two forums during the workday, and reply when I can.

Other than that, I do enjoy a nice life.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Now Cubfan, don't go jumping to conclusions. No one said anything about the LDM.

My lifestyle includes running two businesses which, by luck, includes the use of a computer. I keep tabs on two forums during the workday, and reply when I can.

Other than that, I do enjoy a nice life.

Take care,

Joe

Sounds like something a person who found a treasure would say to throw everyone off the trail (LOL - just kidding)

Running two businesses can't be all that easy, but I've heard it said many times that if you truly enjoy what you're doing for a living, it doesn't feel so much like work.

Almost done with Sims Ely's book - gonna read it a second time and take notes, then be prepared for many questions!

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Cubfan,

Both businesses involve helping the elderly, so it is, normally, highly rewarding. The smiles we create are hard to beat.

Once you have read Ely, you may find it hard to reconcile some of the tales that came along later. As important as the "facts" in the book are, getting a feel for the character of the men telling the story (Ely and Bark), IMHO, is even more important.

Take care,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

if you do not utilize computers in todays type of research you soon are left in the dark ages ..lol..

we do many things .language translation ,topo research , historyic research , time line definements , define evidence , history checks . graphical studies,we map and log every picture with lon & lat and link them to the topo area they were taken , we map the full range of that picture by lon & lat to cover the full veiw of that picture on the given topo mapping ...


we record all elev changes and the piont from were the photo was taken ....we have maped waltz trail to within 25ft ...

we basically map everything in the legend and any acounts of it and everything else related or not to the area we are researching ...

right now we are researching . the kino acount in part only . the "volcanic blowout" description..why because we believe we have found that site .. and it dose not match the description the way we beleive it would ....to date we have spent about 400 hours veiwing the mt range and we have not found another site that matches the description as well as the one we are working on at the time ...but as i stated the description kino gave is not dirrect and is misleeding ...

now we are trying to define why kino's acount of this event dose not relate to the LDM, we under stand the basic confussion and history of the event and how it was recorded and the history of the site in question . if the event took place as kino stated .the disrciption has been misleeding for a reason ... kino wanted it that way ...

we just want to define how the acount was changed and why and by who before the topic is made public ...


your research findings are only as good as your background data ...

thus the computers run and we try to keep up ! lol ...

we found it is much like cake batter . a lot of things have become part of the LDM legend but defineing what those things are takes time and hard work ...

each ingredient has its own messure of evidence with in the legend , to much of one thing or not enough and the over all legend dose not trun out the way it should ...


if you want perfection you must go back and see how it was made and define the messurements of each ingredient and know how and when to add them to the mix or you just never get the right out come ...

so in many cases we are remessureing the evidence and defineing its place and values to its self as well as to the over all legend or its own place in histroy or the location it took place at ...

 

[action14]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Hey Blind

Wow you hit the nail on the head....

Scary how right you are. Stone doorway....pivots on a pole in its center. Giants in the tomb in the entrance....you know what I'm talking about.

The cave saved the ancient tribes from a great calamity. That's why it's plated with gold. Gold is sacred to all the O'odham nation and belongs in the mountain.

They were born from the mountain.

The Akimel O'odham and Tohono O'odham are the quintessential inhabitants of the Sonoran Desert of Arizona and Sonora. They speak closely related dialects of the Tepiman branch of the Uto-Aztecan language family.


The ancient trail is amazing. I held back tears when I first hiked it. I believe you have been there.

Thx for this topic.
Jon

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Hey Blind

Wow you hit the nail on the head....

Scary how right you are. Stone doorway....pivots on a pole in its center. Giants in the tomb in the entrance....you know what I'm talking about.

The cave saved the ancient tribes from a great calamity. That's why it's plated with gold. Gold is sacred to all the O'odham nation and belongs in the mountain.

They were born from the mountain.

The Akimel O'odham and Tohono O'odham are the quintessential inhabitants of the Sonoran Desert of Arizona and Sonora. They speak closely related dialects of the Tepiman branch of the Uto-Aztecan language family.


The ancient trail is amazing. I held back tears when I first hiked it. I believe you have been there.

Thx for this topic.
Jon

yes i have ...

" its seeing threw time and knowing what one sees that makes the truth become the insight ..."

 

[ancientones]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

blindbowman
see if you can pull this webpage up
ancientones
www.thesombreromine.com

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

The Ute Natives carry legends of a cave that is said to be the place where God stood when he created life. They claim that their forefathers "The Ancient Ones" once mined for gold in the Uinta Mountains and that at one time the ice drove them South. The cave is know to the Utes as Carrie Shin Ob and was found out by Spanish explorers in 1562. The richest gold mine in all of the entire Nation is said to begin from somewhere from within the cave. Any and all were killed if found anywhere near the site both Spaniard and Brave. A famous shaman was said to have been buried within it's chambers sometime towards the end of the 16th century. The cave location was kept between 12 Ute Chiefs until Brigham Young poisoned the entire tribe with years of booze made from garbage and then the death of Chief Wakara. This is a small confining cave system with an entry that resembles the shape of a vagina. The natural stone formations and shadow system functioning in that area, take on many different shapes of animals and man and thus the concepts of origin; "There Dwells God"

 

[St. Jerome]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

so what exactly is in this cave? Geronimo's chicomoztoc? pi uto aztecan legend of emergance.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

St. Jerome,

No one knows for sure, but it's been rumored to have glass jars full of nitro just inside the entrance.
Probably the burial place of Moctezuma II.

What do you think?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

If I'm not mistaken, BB has stated that the source for the "black death" (plague that ravaged Europe in the 1300's) is located inside.

 

[Furness]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Yes and probably has a little hut over it with a wooden seat with a hole in and a roll of soft ---er--- writing paper on a hook,
its probably where all the serious logicians thinking is done ,
the serious stuff like lord Sinclair going to the holy land and digging up Mary and Joseph's bodies then taking them to America and reburying them in the Superstitions,

marvelous what posts are written and then deleted before breakfast on your side of the pond by this famous logician !!!!,

John

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

John,

Unlike folks on your side of the pond, we Americans don't take all day to get a days work done.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Furness wrote

Yes and probably has a little hut over it with a wooden seat with a hole in and a roll of soft ---er--- writing paper on a hook,
its probably where all the serious logicians thinking is done ,
the serious stuff like lord Sinclair going to the holy land and digging up Mary and Joseph's bodies then taking them to America and reburying them in the Superstitions,

marvelous what posts are written and then deleted before breakfast on your side of the pond by this famous logician !!!!,

ROFL !!! John you nearly caused a double-nostril fountain blast with that one, I had just taken a sip as I started reading it. You have a great sense of humor.

That little habit of posting, then deleting the posts, is irritating and rude. Some of us have asked people to please leave their posts up at least for a few days, for not all of us can be online watching the forum as if it were a chat room, so do not ever see what was posted. But the post-delete habit never stopped.

As this was a thread where another LDM point was discussed, and I ran across something relevant recently while looking for something totally unrelated, I will post it.



This letter was written in 1962, and suggests that the Wells Fargo records referred to by Terry were first turned up while the Petrasches were actively searching. Also turned up some further confirmation of Joe Deering, may post that sometime.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

is that why they named you john?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

El Jose de La cholla posted --> Unlike folks on your side of the pond, we Americans don't take all day to get a days work done
****************
Speak for yourself, I was born lazy and have successfully dedicated my life to not changing !

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Roy,

As you know, I talked to the Wells Fargo Historian, Robert J Chandler, up in San Francisco. Three things about those "records".......They would not list an individual person as the shipper, there are no shipping records for Arizona and most of the records that Wells Fargo had were destroyed in the fire after the great earthquake that hit the city in 1906.

On top of that, Terry claimed the gold ore was shipped to the U.S. Mint in Sacramento. There has never been a U.S. Mint there, and U.S. Mints do not accept ore. Who are the "two young men" Terry mentions?

Being at our store, I am writing this from memory so I may be all wrong. Memory not being so good anymore.

It would have been nice to see the entire page.

Take care, Very Soon.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

As you know, I talked to the Wells Fargo Historian up in San Francisco. Three things about those "records".......They would not list an individual person as the shipper, there are no shipping records for Arizona and most of the records that Wells Fargo had were destroyed in the fire after the great earthquake that hit the city in 1906.

On top of that, Terry claimed the gold ore was shipped to the U.S. Mint in Sacramento. There has never been a U.S. Mint there, and U.S. Mints do not accept ore. Who are the "two young men" Terry mentions?

Being at our store, I am writing this from memory so I may be all wrong. Memory not being so good anymore.

It would have been nice to see the entire page.

Thomas Terry was a newspaperman, and his work which I cited was a compilation of all the reports he had turned up. I don't think he went to any great lengths to deeply investigate any one of them, for there are simply too many and the Atlas series would be several centuries in compiling.
The two young men are the Petrasch brothers, I thought that was clear from the letter; hence the sentence structure:

"Herman Petrasch searched for years to try to patch together what Jacob tried to explain to these two young men how to get to it."

Two young men as in Reiney and Herman; Herman claimed that he had known the Dutchman while he was alive, which is not supported by the evidence, but that didn't stop him from claiming it.

I also forgot to say that it was a letter from John Lindley Higham to Mrs McGee; and it is not a big problem to post the full page, though I will have to re-size it for it to post successfully so there will likely be some loss of detail. If you like, I can transcribe the text as well, if you cannot read the letter page. <Hope this works, if not just drop me a PM and I will email the scans>



I also talked to the historian (via email) and found that they had NO records of any kind from the period. The 'records' mentioned could be receipts that Waltz had in his possessions, we can not know at this point. Terry published his Atlas series in 1985 (I believe) and the Higham letter predates this by two decades, I think we can safely exclude Terry as the originator. As to my own memory it is clearly faulty and probably confabulation, as I have also researched a stage robbery in which shipments of gold ore were involved; combined with having seen Terry's mention I was adding two plus orange to get ten. But while the Wells Fargo story may have errors, I don't think it should be dismissed as pure fabrication. As I have been going through some old notes from years past, if I should turn up anything further on it I will be happy to share it here.

See you soon,
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Roy,

[The two young men are the Petrasch brothers, I thought that was clear from the letter; hence the sentence structure:

"Herman Petrasch searched for years to try to patch together what Jacob tried to explain to these two young men how to get to it."

Two young men as in Reiney and Herman; Herman claimed that he had known the Dutchman while he was alive, which is not supported by the evidence, but that didn't stop him from claiming it.]

All of that was clear enough, but as you state, Herman's claim "is not supported by the evidence."

I suppose it doesn't really make any difference.

Take care,

Joe