History Channel - Oak Island mini series January 5, 2014

[Dave Rishar]

It is intriguing.....

That it is.

The article, while optimistic, admits that while it's compelling evidence, this case is hardly closed. We don't know for sure that this DNA came from the New World, but it's certainly possible.

I strongly disagree with Gullov from the article, and in fact am confused by his comments. He has a problem with the theory of native women coming back with explorers because it wasn't mentioned in the Sagas, yet in the next two paragraphs it's mentioned that the Sagas are not 100% accurate (they're not) and that on at least one occasion, it was written that natives were captured and taken to Greenland. It seems entirely plausible to me that one or more "war brides" were hauled off to Greenland, and one or more of the resulting children eventually made it back to Iceland, or one of their offspring did.

Of course, if we accept that this unusual DNA is definitely from the New World, all that it really proves is that Icelanders had contact with people from across the Atlantic - and we already knew that. More evidence of it is always interesting, but the issue was not in doubt. The real mystery now is just how far they explored. Hopefully more things will turn up in the future.

 

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[Robot]

I have not located a photo of the 18th century Cornish Poll-Pick only this excerpt on the finding of it in the Flood Tunnel. Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - William Phips and Oak Island
The Flood Tunnel has the same dimensions as those constructed by the Cornish Tin Miners in England.
Cornish Miners from England were World renowned for their ability to dig tunnels in the most difficult of situations. They were used by the Royal Navy on military expeditions, (like the Invasion of Havana) to dig under fortifications.
It would have been no problem for them to accomplish the claimed tunneling at Oak Island.
Link has enjoyable video on Cornish Miners.
Cornish Mining World Heritage Site

Other links:
History of the Coconut: Coconut - Seeds of Trade

Coconut and Wood carbon dating: Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - Carbon dating reports

You may have to copy and paste these links into your Browser

 

[rowanns]

Thanks for the information Robot! I'll be looking at this for sure. Your first link hits "close to home" so to speak, because it mentions those folks who settled nearby Lunenburg and the hardships they encountered - my very ancestors. So thank you from me personally for the link.

Regards,
Rowan

 

[MuckyBottles]

Its just a myth perpetrated by entertainment. Need more than heresay to prove that the "Templars" came to North America....The Vikings on the other hand, see L'Anse aux Meadows

 

[rush]

red stone whistle

Sorry best I could do was 20+yrs ago Thanks again.. Question Do ya think they will ever find the DNA Royal Blood line ?

 

[Dave Rishar]

I have not located a photo of the 18th century Cornish Poll-Pick only this excerpt on the finding of it in the Flood Tunnel. Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - William Phips and Oak Island The Flood Tunnel has the same dimensions as those constructed by the Cornish Tin Miners in England. Cornish Miners from England were World renowned for their ability to dig tunnels in the most difficult of situations. They were used by the Royal Navy on military expeditions, (like the Invasion of Havana) to dig under fortifications. It would have been no problem for them to accomplish the claimed tunneling at Oak Island. Link has enjoyable video on Cornish Miners. Cornish Mining World Heritage Site Other links: History of the Coconut: Coconut - Seeds of Trade Coconut and Wood carbon dating: Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - Carbon dating reports You may have to copy and paste these links into your Browser

The links worked fine. Thank you.

There are a few problems with this.

First of all, there is no solid evidence of the flood tunnel(s). None. The stories are there, everyone knows about them, but whenever someone has gone looking for them in modern times with some sort of a recording device, they're never found. It will take more than stories to convince me. The pick, like all of the other solid evidence, is nowhere to be found and no picture is available...in other words, it's another story.

Secondly, we have some dating issues with the samples. The coconut fibers are 700 years old. One wood sample is 300 years old, while the other is 1400 years old. You cannot plausibly use all three of these as evidence for a single theory. One must choose one and stick with it. (This was the same problem that I had with the carved rocks, coincidentally.) If 700-year-old coconut fibers are in a 300-year-old flood tunnel (that again, has not actually been found), it's going to take one hell of a hypothesis to marry that all together. Picking any one of the three must necessarily invalidate the other two, which in turn makes any of the current theories (yours included) much harder to prove.

A possible, but improbable, explanation for the coconut fibers is available, but I don't think that it would have applied by the time of this test. If a report from 1994 states that they're confident of the results, I'm confident that they're reasonably accurate. This is interesting for me, as I was not aware of a test being performed around this time. It doesn't change my opinion of the situation but it's another piece of evidence.

 

[Robot]

History of the Coconut Tree Migration



Discarding all the items found within the Money Pit, it is still hard to discount a key piece of evidence as proof to who may have built it. That evidence lies with the use of the Coconut Fiber found within the Main Shaft and Flood Tunnels
My theory for “The (Untold) Story of the Oak Island Money Pit” does not support the carbon dating of the Coconut Fiber to be between 1260ad and 1400ad, with 1330ad being between those dates
This time frame has led to many earlier dated theories of Vikings, Knight Templars, and Druids with all of them using the Coconut Fiber for their construction during this time period.

Investigating into the history of the Coconut Tree shows that although it originated in Malaysia during the latter 1200ad.
The coconut seeds did not cross over to Africa, Europe, South and Central America until mid-1550ad allowing the Coconut Tree, Coconuts and the processed Coconut Fiber available for use until the latter 1600’s.

Coconut - Seeds of Trade

The immense quantity of coconut fiber found was of processed coconut fiber.
It would be hard to explain that a large quantity of whole coconuts drifted to Oak Island from the Indian Ocean or Atlantic Ocean and broke down naturally.
Unless the Vikings portaged their ships to the Pacific Ocean, the use of coconut fiber was not accessible to them.

I along with others believe the carbon dating of these fibers done by the University of Saskatchewan in the 70's was bias and flawed.

Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - Carbon dating reports

I would like a more recent test to be done to clear up this controversial matter.

It is interesting that the “Free Masons” choice and use of Coconut Fiber was by no means an accident, as the coir fiber is relatively waterproof, and is one of the few natural fibers resistant to damage by saltwater. By bonding Coconut Fiber with clay and ash (from the burning of their ships), they produced a strong sealant which would last a very long time.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Discarding all the items found within the Money Pit, it is still hard to discount a key piece of evidence as proof to who may have built it. That evidence lies with the use of the Coconut Fiber found within the Main Shaft and Flood Tunnels My theory for “The (Untold) Story of the Oak Island Money Pit” does not support the carbon dating of the Coconut Fiber to be between 1260ad and 1400ad, with 1330ad being between those dates This time frame has led to many earlier dated theories of Vikings, Knight Templars, and Druids with all of them using the Coconut Fiber for their construction during this time period.

It sounds as if your theory doesn't fit the evidence. Which can be changed most easily?

I'm still not convinced about the flood tunnels. When someone manages to capture a picture or video of one "in the wild", I'll revise that position. As of now, they're stories.

Investigating into the history of the Coconut Tree shows that although it originated in Malaysia during the latter 1200ad.

You seem to have some incorrect information on coconuts.



You're probably wondering what this is, just as I did. It's a fossilized coconut that's approximately 17,000,000 years old. It was found in Panama. Rather than clutter up this thread with more pictures, I'll invite you to perform a Google image search. Using "coconut fossil" will produce plenty of hits. The important thing to take away from this is that these are not modern trees, although modern cultivation has changed some of them a bit from how they originally were.

Are they from Malaysia? Possibly. Some evidence suggests that. Some evidence also suggests India, Australia, and South America. The jury is still out on this one. The continents have shifted a bit since these trees first hit the scene, so if we were to conclusively pin down their geographical beginnings today, we'd still have to account for where that particular place was millions of years ago when plotting out their distribution.

I along with others believe the carbon dating of these fibers done by the University of Saskatchewan in the 70's was bias and flawed. Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - Carbon dating reports I would like a more recent test to be done to clear up this controversial matter.

There was a more recent one done in the nineties. It's listed on the very site that you linked to. (That is actually how I found it, believe it or not. I've asked repeatedly on this thread and others for believers to give me some evidence beyond a story that fibers had been found and dated recently, and none could. You did what they would not, and I appreciate that.) The company performing the testing was Beta Analytic. As they specifically mentioned the calibrations necessary for maritime samples, I believe that they knew how to process such samples and would not have been too far off with their dates. I've read that the Lagina brothers have conducted their own tests as well and came up with similar numbers, but don't quote me on that as I'm not positive of it yet. The reports that I'm referencing can be found here: Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - Coconut fibre

This is somewhat ironic, as the age of the coconut fibers was one of the first things that I attacked when I became involved in this thread. I've seen enough since then to convince me that at least some of them exist, and that some of those are old.

 

[Robot]

View attachment R.V. Harris.pdf

Thanks Dave;
I was surprised to see the photo you attached as I thought it to be a picture of the 18th century Cornish Poll-Pick!

Your picture helps to prove that the coconut has been documented to float throughout the oceans of the World, although it does not prove how truckloads of the processed fiber could have arrived at Oak Island.

Your arguments did make me take another look and view as to how 2 or maybe 3 carbon testings could arrive with the 14th century as the probable date for this fiber.

I along with the scientist who documented the history of the Coconut still believe that there was not a flourishing coconut industry outside of Malaysia prior to the 1700's ad.

My theories can be changed based on evidence provided.

Where I believe other's and I eroded was in presuming that in the 18th century there was an industry in the Caribbean and Central America producing coconut fiber and these fibers came from this part of the World.
It makes more sense that Spanish ships from the East Indies carting supplies and trade to Havana would off load and store this packing material prior to taking gold shipments back to Spain.
Mr. Harris's letter (attached) states his believe that these fibers originated in the East Indies.

The Keppels would have had boat loads of this material readily available for their plans at Oak Island.

This allows for the carbon dating of the Coconut Fibers to be 14th Century, while all other stated found items (Wood Pieces and Wood Platforms, Block and Tackle, Cornish Poll-Pick, Axe, Scissors, Shoe, Parchment Paper, Ruler, Anchor Flute, Nails, Metal Fragments, Chain and Boatswain Whistle) compatible with the 18th century, and conform with the Freemasons as builders of The Money Pit at Oak Island.

It still also disqualifies Vikings, Knight Templars and Druids as possible builders, as they did not have access to this quantity of fibers in their time period.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Thanks Dave; I was surprised to see the photo you attached as I thought it to be a picture of the 18th century Cornish Poll-Pick!

I did not pay much attention to the pick, and admittedly do not know much about them. I was focused on the coconuts.

Your picture helps to prove that the coconut has been documented to float throughout the oceans of the World, although it does not prove how truckloads of the processed fiber could have arrived at Oak Island.

While we are both citing the same website, I think that there is some difference in what we're citing. I cited a carbon dating report that was over a decade old from a laboratory that's still in business. If there's an entire beach full of literally several feet of stones and coconut fiber, it's time for someone to spend an afternoon with an excavator to put this myth to rest. I have seen a handful of fibers recovered on film (admittedly on a reality TV program), but I'm not seeing the large amounts that are supposedly there. The report states that this is lining the whole beach, but if they did not excavate the whole beach then how could they know this? And if they did excavate the whole beach, where are the rest of those fibers?

Your arguments did make me take another look and view as to how 2 or maybe 3 carbon testings could arrive with the 14th century as the probable date for this fiber. I along with the scientist who documented the history of the Coconut still believe that there was not a flourishing coconut industry outside of Malaysia prior to the 1700's ad.

The? I was under the impression that there was more than one. Who is this person?

My theories can be changed based on evidence provided.

As can mine. As have mine, in this case. I used to be very skeptical about old coconut fibers at the site. As it turns out, they were there. I'm still not sold on the quantity and I'm not prepared to speculate on the source(s), but it's something that I have to accept now.

Where I believe other's and I eroded was in presuming that in the 18th century there was an industry in the Caribbean and Central America producing coconut fiber and these fibers came from this part of the World. It makes more sense that Spanish ships from the East Indies carting supplies and trade to Havana would off load and store this packing material prior to taking gold shipments back to Spain. Mr. Harris's letter (attached) states his believe that these fibers originated in the East Indies. The Keppels would have had boat loads of this material readily available for their plans at Oak Island. This allows for the carbon dating of the Coconut Fibers to be 14th Century...

I'm not sure about an operation utilizing dunnage that was several centuries old. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, but I'd say that it's unlikely. The timeline for coconut propogation established in your last post would have made a West Indian origin impossible.

...while all other stated found items (Wood Pieces and Wood Platforms, Block and Tackle, Cornish Poll-Pick, Axe, Scissors, Shoe, Parchment Paper, Ruler, Anchor Flute, Nails, Metal Fragments, Chain and Boatswain Whistle) compatible with the 18th century, and conform with the Freemasons as builders of The Money Pit at Oak Island.

The majority of these artifacts (if they did indeed exist) are poorly documented and cannot be taken as evidence at face value.

It still also disqualifies Vikings, Knight Templars and Druids as possible builders, as they did not have access to this quantity of fibers in their time period.

I won't argue that the Vikings, Templars, or Druids were not involved. As for fibers, that's another story entirely. "One Thousand and One Nights" predates 1200 AD and mentions Sinbad gathering and selling coconuts. Was coir known in the middle east during this time? Maybe and maybe not, but coconuts certainly were; as a bonus, they would have travelled well as trade goods and would have been immediately useful to the people transporting them in a variety of ways. It's likely that these stories date back to 1000 AD or earlier. Would coconuts have been available in the Holy Land at that time? That's not an area that I've researched and I don't have an opinion, but they could have been, and if they were, Europeans would have had access to them.

Now it gets weird...if coconuts had made it to the Holy Land by then, might they have even made it to Constantinople? It made its money by serving as a trading hub. By 1000 AD, the rulers of the Byzantine Empire had been protected by the Varangian Guard for over a century. The Varangians, of course, were mostly Scandinavians during this period of time. Can you imagine Norsemen and Icelanders drinking coconut water a thousand years ago? It boggles the mind. Did it happen? I don't know that it did, but it could have, and I find that concept to be astonishing. This is admittedly a bit of speculation on my part, but it's completely plausible.

Falling back to a substistance farmer sort of mindset, I would say that if my environment supported coconuts, I would be growing the hell out of them. It is an amazingly useful fruit, produced by a fairly useful tree. No wonder it got around like it did!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HMM Still say that the sacking of Panama loot is the most probable Fufills most requirements far more closely, if not completely. NO

Incidentally the major part of the loot has never been recovered.--- down below

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Dave Rishar]

HMM Still say that the sacking of Panama loot is the most probable Fufills most requirements far more closely, if not completely. NO

This whole legend did begin with a search for pirate treasure.

 

[rowanns]

Or could be from Albermarle's looting of Havana in 1762....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

true row, coffee"

 

[Robot]

This claimed Boatswain Whistle found at Oak Island made of ivory or bone does not appear to me to be of the same design as used in the 18th century British Navy.
I wonder if 18th century Freemasons used whistles as part of their ceremonies?
Anyone know?

 

[Dave Rishar]

I wonder if 18th century Freemasons used whistles as part of their ceremonies? Anyone know?

The one that I asked said that he wasn't aware of this, at least with regard to the Scottish Rite and Blue Lodges.

 

[rowanns]

true row, coffee"

I win a coffee?!! Thank you! Does it come "flavoured"?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Row, you asked does it come flavored ?

Of course, it is made with Oro's sock. Internationally known for it's unique flavor.

Don Jose.

 

[Robot]

Boatswain Whistle? or Flat Whistle?



It appears to me that the Whistle found on Oak Island and identified as a Boatswain Whistle is more of a Flat Whistle, these were also called Carriage Whistles or latter as Cabby Whistles.
The purpose of these were to hail a carriage and being flat they would fit comfortably inside the pocket of a gentleman.
They were singular in tone unlike a Boatswain which required a numerous tone selection.
This company shows this Oak Island Whistle on there web site and identifies it as an earlier version of a Boatswain.

http://giddings.goldwiser.com/2014/01/13/say-boatswain-say-bosun/

Oak Island Treasure - the world's greatest treasure hunt - Boatswain's whistle

I have requested from some Whistle experts to confirm the style of this Whistle.

The tradition of carving items in bone or ivory while at sea was very popular with navy sailors and could have been just that or still to my believe that it may have been used by the Freemasons as a form of ritual.

Thanks Dave for your investigation!
Anyone else heard of such a thing or not?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The one that I asked said that he wasn't aware of this, at least with regard to the Scottish Rite and Blue Lodges.

NOT in York Rite, either. Scottish Rite didn't even exist in 18th Century. COULD be just a sailor's whistle... dunno.