Highbanking in California, some questions

[Asmbandits]

I was discussing with a lawyer friend of mine on how highbanking was not illegal in California as some would believe and the ways that I knew it was acceptable to run a highbanker here such as reciculating water from a settling pond away from a river lake or stream.

I thought there was also an acceptable method if you were able to do the same as described above but on a seasonal drainage. I recall something along the lines of that if the waterway does not flow for a certain amount of time during the year and is dry most of the time it would be acceptable as well?

My friend insists this would fall under a river, lake or stream, my argument would be what classifies as such? I know of a drainage ditch that only flows during very wet rainy periods that does not support aquatic life due to this and I do not consider it to be a river lake or stream because of this, but I do not know what it would be technically considered..

This particular location there is some standing water here and there after rains that can be recirculated and confined to a small settling pond within the non flowing ditch. This seems like a perfect scenario for highbanking but my friend seems to think otherwise..

Anyone have and guiding input on this topic?

When I look up the definition of river and stream, both have the word flowing or continues flow. But this not the case in this ravine as there is now flow.

 

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[Asmbandits]

Yes, the law is written so broadly I'm sure half of the state is in violation every other day somehow.. Sad thing is its not a joke it's probably true..

I don't want to run and hide from things so ridiculous. I want to stand up and do things the right way as much as humanly possible so I try to even when the law says otherwise.. I have many options at hand for what I purposed but I thought I could do it 100% without looking over my shoulder at all and its starting to look like that's not the case unfortunately. Looks like a trip out of state is in order for this project, I have friends in Nevada with ground to do this, I'm sure I will figure something out.

 

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[Tahoegold]

Yep, understood....

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I found this article slightly interesting..applicable to aspects of high banking.

https://m.phys.org/news/2019-12-experts-mekong-river.html

 

[firebird]

Wait, so a closed system like this is ok to use in California as long as the water doesn't dump into the ground? Why not just keep using these instead?

 

[N-Lionberger]

Recirulating systems can only be run so long before the water gets too muddy.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Wait, so a closed system like this is ok to use in California as long as the water doesn't dump into the ground? Why not just keep using these instead?

View attachment 1777381View attachment 1777382

If you believe these regulations apply to highbanking then they would probably also apply to a recirculating system.

From the Water Board:

Water recycling is encouraged and any person who proposes to produce or use recycled water must file a report and obtain water reclamation requirements or a master reclamation permit. The CWC requires that Department of Health Services (DHS) establish criteria for each type of use of recycled water and the DHS regulations for this purpose are contained in Title 22, CCR. DHS regulations concerning recharge of groundwater with recycled water are pending.

Here's the thing - as long as you only read the parts that are confusing and scary to you - you will be confused and scared. You, a water cop or any lawyer can always find some part of the law or regulations that might apply to you. As you can see above even the thought of recycling your water supply can be countered with "where's your master reclamation permit" by those who prefer drama to common sense.

Speaking of common sense - if you process a 5 gallon bucket of material through a recirculating system you will have to remove more than 5 gallons of muck and rock to keep the recirculating system functional.

Short of running prewashed and sorted sand and rock there is not easy way to keep even a small recirculating system functioning for a day with less than several hundred gallons of clean water on hand. Of course that several hundred gallons of clean water will become several times as many gallons of muck to dispose of. This simple fact combined with a lack of water is the reason so much good gold is still lying around untouched in the southwest desert.

Educate yourself and prosper!

or not

Heavy Pans

 

[Tahoegold]

Here's the thing - as long as you only read the parts that are confusing and scary to you - you will be confused and scared. You, a water cop or any lawyer can always find some part of the law or regulations that might apply to you.

Educate yourself and prosper! [emoji106]

or not

Hi Clay Diggins,
It just keeps getting more difficult to even see how to do highbanking.
I've read some of your posts. Seems like you are well versed in mining law.
I don't understand what you mean when you said as long as I read the parts that are confusing or scary, I'll be confused or scared. And that I should educate myself or not.
I just don't see how that clarifies the situation. I'm not scared nor am I confused. Also, the education I have, well, thats unknown...
What is it you are suggesting? Just don't read the laws, proceed without concern? It's probably that there's more to what you know and experienced about this than we have experienced. That's the main issue. To us it is unknown. We are trying to educate ourselves about this.
I liked that there is info about water reclamation. That's another permit necessary. That's another fact to add to the discussion. And, helpful to make a decision. You know Clay, a lot of us are struggling to get a handle on these crazy Cali mining laws. I'm sure, you can see some of us have a hard time making sense of it all. And, as always, you're input is appreciated!

 

[N-Lionberger]

You need permission to catch some rain to water your garden. Go run your highbanker.

 

[Tahoegold]

You need permission to catch some rain to water your garden. Go run your highbanker.

Just to point out the original situation, he's doing a video. He has been asking because he wants zero concern for doing this. Or, he'll easily go to NV to film... He's going to NV.

 

[Clay Diggins]

It just keeps getting more difficult to even see how to do highbanking.
I've read some of your posts. Seems like you are well versed in mining law.
I don't understand what you mean when you said as long as I read the parts that are confusing or scary, I'll be confused or scared. And that I should educate myself or not.
I just don't see how that clarifies the situation. I'm not scared nor am I confused. Also, the education I have, well, thats unknown...
What is it you are suggesting? Just don't read the laws, proceed without concern? It's probably that there's more to what you know and experienced about this than we have experienced. That's the main issue. To us it is unknown. We are trying to educate ourselves about this.
I liked that there is info about water reclamation. That's another permit necessary. That's another fact to add to the discussion. And, helpful to make a decision. You know Clay, a lot of us are struggling to get a handle on these crazy Cali mining laws. I'm sure, you can see some of us have a hard time making sense of it all. And, as always, you're input is appreciated!

I made two points in my post.

1. If you are looking for a reason why you can't do something a casual reading of a small part of a law (or regulation) can easily seem like the thing you want to do is prohibited even though that's not the intent of the law.

2. If you actually read and understand a law in it's entirety you will become educated enough to understand the intent and effect of the law. Anything less and you are just whistling in the dark.

I'll add another point here:

3. Regulations are not laws. Do not confuse the two. Regulations are created by government agencies to help guide their employees to do their job of enforcing a law. Regulations do not explain the extent of laws - laws explain the extent of regulations.

Most of this discussion has relied on parts of regulations, or more commonly agency explanations of a regulation. That is a trap that will keep you from ever understanding the law the regulations are based on. Ignore the regulations until you understand the law and then the regulations meaning will be clear.

This is not mining law - this is water law. In the dry west water law is very complex. In California it's particularly complex and getting more so every time another feel good law is passed so politicians can get elected. These feel good water laws have led to a constant reduction in water quality in California for more than a century. Just the opposite effect most voters were led to expect.

I can't fix California water law. Only California voters can do that. Until California voters educate themselves about water law they will continue to believe various unfounded rumors about water law. Until California voters educate themselves about water law they will continue to rely on pamphlets and regulations to control their use of water. It's a vicious cycle of more ignorance and greater agency overreach leading to poorer water quality and a diminished right of the citizens to the use of their water. Unfortunately the solution offered to all this is most often another poorly thought out water law resulting in lower water quality and less respect for the peoples right to beneficial use of their water.

Educate Yourself and Prosper!

Or don't educate yourself and fail to prosper - the choice is yours.

Heavy Pans

 

[Tahoegold]

Now that's interesting. You point out something we've been missing. Law vs regulations. So, if it were me wanting to plan a publicly viewed video with zero concern. After all this, and still nothing that says it's 100% ok, and it's off to NV...
How are we to know if the regulation is violating the law in it's statements? Aren't regulations written and checked for accuracy in enforcing the law? Are they somehow faulty in their wording? Even if they are, can a court uphold the actions of an agency that is following a regulation?
Wait a minute, is this what they want. Do they want to write laws and regulations so vaguely that no one but them can decipher? I am wondering now, can I trust the wording of regulations? What a mess
... No wonder you and others are saying just go do it. Who knows what will happen. You'll probabily get an education once the local authority shows up, explains how he interprets the law. So confusing...

 

[Goldwasher]

Now that's interesting. You point out something we've been missing. Law vs regulations. So, if it were me wanting to plan a publicly viewed video with zero concern. After all this, and still nothing that says it's 100% ok, and it's off to NV...
How are we to know if the regulation is violating the law in it's statements? Aren't regulations written and checked for accuracy in enforcing the law? Are they somehow faulty in their wording? Even if they are, can a court uphold the actions of an agency that is following a regulation?
Wait a minute, is this what they want. Do they want to write laws and regulations so vaguely that no one but them can decipher? I am wondering now, can I trust the wording of regulations? What a mess
... No wonder you and others are saying just go do it. Who knows what will happen. You'll probabily get an education once the local authority shows up, explains how he interprets the law. So confusing...

Show people how to treat you and they will. Don't let the state be any different.

Can you find a list of people the state water board has cited for hi banking with out permits?

You do realize that you can talk a cop into ticketing you. Mainly if you give them more info than they ask for.

Running a motor in Ca. is not Illegal. There is a law in place that says you as a miner. more speciffically a claim owner. have the right..almost obligation . To develop and market that resource. Not doing what is legal and worrying about or getting a citation from the swb will not make you the next B. Rinehardt BTW. There was never a highbanking "program" to get a permit ..to not have the permit to get a ticket for...then try to fight a federal jurisdiction case in Ca. the wrong way.

Regardless of the purposefully broad wording in SB 637. That law just gave the water board the wheel. And took away permitting from DFW. And even some of their enforcement teeth. No Fish and game code relating to discharge and diversion on mining claims or exploration on unclaimed public land has changed from before..during or after the dredge ban and its ongoing legal status.

The new definition does not and no LAW exists that explicitly disallows motorized mining. Or pumping water. Didn't before doesn't now..yet all the language cited existed back in the good old days when people "freely" hibanked. You know before everyone started getting tickets..oh, wait, That never happened.

The only people saying that are people talking themselves out of doing it...and the people that wanted the narrative to make people talk themselves out of mining.

You understand that there are actual laws against sleeping and pooping on sidewalks...yet hear we are.

Just make a video call it "highbanking video No #2" or something less cool than that.

In the video just don't mention where you are...ooh ooh better yet say your in the Nevada sierras mountains hills.

That will throw the FBI off really really Good..i mean bad..err uhm.

Sorry I'm scared and confused.

 

[Clay Diggins]

You need permission to catch some rain to water your garden. Go run your highbanker.

That's not true in California. You can capture and store rainwater for irrigation. Rainwater Recapture Act of 2012

Other states may have restrictions.

Heavy Pans

 

[Tahoegold]

This discussion is kinda going in 2 directions. I understand why, and it's great to know a wider view of the situation. Of course, there needed to be some input on what to do normally, like when just going out prospecting. Some of the info here was news to me for sure. And I know the orig. question was regarding doing video work and wanting zero concerns.
In the case of videos, they stay on line for infinitum. The creator would be in the public view day and night. Certainly a different situation than going out for a day in a remote prospecting adventure.
So, if it were me, I would not want to do the video in CA in this instance. The input helps to understand the way things really are in the normal prospecting situation. Great thread!

 

[Silveraith]

Don't let them scare you out of your rights. The Fed is good with highbanking but some areas in California don't like it. Stand up to them & know your rights. Don't back down if you know you are in the right. A bully is a bully until confronted by a man. Be a man.

 

[calsierra-Dan]

just do it , i like to wash dirt, i do it on private land with no tailings " not discharge " getting into any so called water way !