HERE IS WHY TREASURE HUNTERS GET A BAD RAP!

OK, Mike, since you opened this particular can of worms, let's look a little deeper into what gives treasure hunters a bad rap - this time from the perspective of other treasure hunters, like us.

How about these activities for starters: the manufacturing of false clues. Such as the "discovery" of hoaxed "historical documents" meant to support certain "treasure legends". Or the creation of false carvings, monuments, intaglios, artifacts and other manmade objects, also meant to fool the unwary. These are serious breaches of personal ethics on several levels, not the least of which is the fact that these believable lies encourage the gullible into continuing to invest time, money and perhaps their own personal safety on searches for phantoms that they may have ignored otherwise without the hoaxed "facts". Of course, we are all responsible for our own actions, and if we choose to dive into murky water without checking for rocks, well ... we earn what we get. It's one thing for an avid treasure hunter to evaluate a "treasure legend" based on available evidence, and decide whether or not to pursue it further, based on his judgement and experience. It's quite another to be given jimmied "proof" to skew his judgement. Of course, this sort of thing happens all the time in non-treasure venues - political shenanigans, advertising, personal relationships, etc., but let's focus on treasure hunting.

A less serious breach is the publication of the many "treasure legends" that are based on little more than hearsay, imagination and wishful thinking. Books, magazine articles, newspaper stories, bar talk, internet sites such as this one and so on - the fun stories that we like to read and wonder about. When one of these grabs our attention, we look deeper. Sometimes we even go to the story's location and poke around. If the source of the story is from a private party - unpublicized journal, family tradition, etc. - we pay much more attention. But, for nearly all the stories, even if the published versions may have some sort of truth underpinning them, most of us realize that the details have been so obscured, corrupted and twisted, that solution of the puzzle is probably impossible and the investment of a large effort would most likely be a fool's errand. Fun to hike in the hills and fantasize, but not enough to quit our jobs. Mostly harmless fun here - a hobby and a chance to join a social group of sorts.

It's like your Perrick story. Yes, we can hoot and holler about Doc's dastardly deeds and assure ourselves that we are better than that. Yada yada. That's a valid gut check and something to think about. Your particular outrage in Doc's case may well only be "virtual outrage" on behalf of the archies, however, because when you look a little deeper into the story, you find that there is nothing there except possibly a good campfire tale. Let's try to set the record straight about Doc.

Perrick was a prospector and scammer active in the Caballos during the 1970s, more or less. In many ways, he was likely in the same league with many prospectors and scammers active in the Caballos before him, after him and still today - it's a tradition there. The stories about him are still repeated around T or C. In fact, the article you posted is from a book published in 2003 by one William H. White - Tales of the Caballos. If you haven't read the book, it's an interesting collection of rumors of lost gold mines, Aztec hideaways, underground military bases, Jesuit missions and the like. Not only are the stories totally unsupported by other than rumor, there are several egregious factual errors throughout, beginning in the forward where he misnames the mountain range. In fairness to White, the book is a fun read, but not to be taken seriously. The author is also visible on YouTube telling more outrageous whoppers with a straight face. I'm sure he would be fun to know. By the way, the "Old Spanish Mine" photo is of a site on Currant Creek in Utah - I guess White didn't have a picture of one in the Caballos. Funny thing - with all the activity all over the Caballos before and during Perrick's day, I guess nobody bothered to photograph the Spanish, Aztec, alien, whatever, carvings attributed to Doc either. Do you think maybe Doc fabricated these "missing carvings" to swindle his marks?

The only other mention of Perrick is in Joe Cummins' Lure of the Caballos, a very good reference and a free download. Cummins cites a number of Doc items, but all are third-hand hearsay that add color and character the book. Again, no validation of Doc's apparent lies about the carvings.

What's the point? Perrick was likely a cantankerous character and not reliable, maybe even a criminal. But let's not boil him in oil for something that there is no proof of happening. Or, if you prefer, continue to build his legend. Bottom line: check your "facts".
 

But the fact that someone publishes false hoods about treasure hunting to make money is in no way the same kind of thing as destroying evidence in the field because you feel you have the sole right to seek a treasure. Apples to oranges....
 

Personally, I think many of the laws that have been set in place to help protect sites/finds of historical significance have also served to aid in their demise. It's become something of a "straddling the barbed wire fence situation", damned if you do and damned if you don't. There should be reward for significant discovery and not fear of complete loss or prosecution when reported. The system is corrupted and broken and it's in need of a major overhaul.
 

I agree, some changes are in order. Like the idea Spain has a right to treasure it gained from inslaving other cultures and taking their metals.
 

UncleMatt said:
I agree, some changes are in order. Like the idea Spain has a right to treasure it gained from inslaving other cultures and taking their metals.
Click to expand...

That's a good point Matt. By the same token, do we have any right to recovery of treasure that might be traced to its rightful original owners? For example, let's say you're checking old fenceposts on an abandoned 1930s farm with your metal detector and discover a Mason jar with 25 Double Eagles in it - worth about $30,000 in today's money. What do you do with the coins?
 

bigscoop said:
Personally, I think many of the laws that have been set in place to help protect sites/finds of historical significance have also served to aid in their demise. It's become something of a "straddling the barbed wire fence situation", damned if you do and damned if you don't. There should be reward for significant discovery and not fear of complete loss or prosecution when reported. The system is corrupted and broken and it's in need of a major overhaul.
Click to expand...

That's why a number of "out of place" petroglyph locations remain secret today. In particular, a bunch of "Phoenician-appearing" carvings in the hills surrounding New Mexico's lower Rio Grande Valley. Some of them lie within the newly-created Desert Park surrounding Las Cruces. I wonder if their locations will remain secret by those in the know. I'd guess yes.
 

UncleMatt said:
But the fact that someone publishes false hoods about treasure hunting to make money is in no way the same kind of thing as destroying evidence in the field because you feel you have the sole right to seek a treasure. Apples to oranges....
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about some treasure magazine article about, say, Jesuit caches in Arizona. If you want to believe the story, or just enjoy adventure yarns - fine. Treasure magazines are not taken all that seriously by most folks.

But what about someone forging "Spanish documents" that support the tale? Or some guy chiseling "treasure petroglyphs" in the hills that point to the alleged stash? No big deal for the most part, but who suffers from the existence of the fake carving? Treasure hunters and historians, I guess. Likewise, who suffers from the removal of a real carving? Treasure hunters and historians, I guess. How do we tell the difference between a fake carving and a real one, since there is really no way to reliably date them other than culturally (which obviously doesn't work with treasure clues)? A good example is the so-called Peralta Stone Maps. An entire revisionist history of central Arizona has grown up surrounding those things. If it's finally decided they're hoaxed, I guess we just burn the new history books. Oh well, Arizona - continue with what you were doing before Tumlinson showed up.
 

But the root of the conversation is not in the finding of a jar of gold coins, but the signs that may or may not lead you to such a find, and what is or is not done to them. What you do after you find a treasure is another matter entirely.

I agree that faking petroglyphs or carvings is a form of fraud, but here is a story that may add a different perspective. I once lived 12 miles out of Montrose, CO when I was a kid. One day I was bored, and my step-mom gave me some clay to play with. So I made a figurine like the ones I saw in encyclopedias and magazines from Egypt or Greece. A nice seated human form with a bull's head and horns. I also made markings an the base that I just made up, but that looked cool on it. After I had fired it in a kiln in town, I buried it out in my back yard with the idea someday someone would find it and be fooled by it, the idea of which made me laugh. Just a silly, kid-like thing to do.

Now then, did I commit fraud? Was I guilty of doing something wrong?

If Native-American kids were bored, I imagine they scrawled things on rocks. Same goes for the adults. Same things goes on today. I also think they made objects of clay, just like I did. Not everything you find has an evil intent, and may not have any intent at all, it may just be misunderstood by us at a basic level. And we tend to "fill in the blanks" with our own thoughts and agendas in those situations. If my figurine is ever found, it may be the cause of someone thinking they found something of significance, when it was really just a joke pulled by a ten year old boy. For all we know, the Peralta Stone Maps may be a good example of this. It may be a meaningless work of art by a bored mind. But that doesn't mean its a hoax, it means we don't understand, and our biases lead us astray.
 

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UncleMatt said:
But the root of the conversation is not in the finding of a jar of gold coins, but the signs that may or may not lead you to such a find, and what is or is not done to them. What you do after you find a treasure is another matter entirely.

I agree that faking petroglyphs or carvings is a form of fraud, but here is a story that may add a different perspective. I once lived 12 miles out of Montrose, CO when I was a kid. One day I was bored, and my step-mom gave me some clay to play with. So I made a figurine like the ones I saw in encyclopedias and magazines from Egypt or Greece. A nice seated human form with a bull's head and horns. I also made markings an the base that I just made up, but that looked cool on it. After I had fired it in a kiln in town, I buried it out in my back yard with the idea someday someone would find it and be fooled by it, the idea of which made me laugh. Just a silly, kid-like thing to do.

Now then, did I commit fraud? Was I guilty of doing something wrong?

If Native-American kids were bored, I imagine they scrawled things on rocks. Same goes for the adults. Same things goes on today. I also think they made objects of clay, just like I did. Not everything you find has an evil intent, and may not have any intent at all, it may just be misunderstood by us at a basic level. And we tend to "fill in the blanks" with our own thoughts and agendas in those situations. If my figurine is ever found, it may be the cause of someone thinking they found something of significance, when it was really just a joke pulled by a ten year old boy. For all we know, the Peralta Stone Maps may be a good example of this. It may be a meaningless work of art by a bored mind. But that doesn't mean its a hoax, it means we don't understand, and our biases lead us astray.
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"Now then, did I commit fraud? Was I guilty of doing something wrong?"
Not on purpose , but what a head scratcher for whoever recovers it.:laughing7:

In a parallel vein, when knapping flint there has been a suggestion of tossing a modern cent in with the waste as it is buried to avoid sharp stuff on the surface.
Without doing so could lead to bias as well.( Puget Sound knappers definition of debitige."Debitage: Wasted flakes created during knapping. Disposal should be either in a regular landfill or buried with a article that indicates age such as a modern coin or aluminum can.)

Puget Sound Knappers
 

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Once when I was asked to go to a suspected treasure site - supposedly revolutionaries loot - I went, but reluctantly. It was in a dried up adobe soil swamp area. I quickly determined that there was no metal above the water level and tried to call it off. They refused and continued sloshing around i the wet adobe;

Being bored, I commenced to make impressions of a mint condition 8 Reale - I know, I should preserve it - but I was carrying it for luck, there were more at home - anyway the damp adobe was almost like modeling clay. so I made several impressions. About that time they gave up and we went home.

About a month later one of the men called me up and proceeded to give me hell, He said that a huge treasure of pre-revolutionary time had been found where we were. I was stumped for a bit, until he mentioned that the impression of the coins was still evident.

Hmmmm 2 + 2= 4. My playing around had been found and misinterpreted, I never did explain to him what really happened, didn't want to destroy his faith in treasures

They still talk of the deposit of loose coins having been found with a derrotero (map).by unknowns.

Was I wrong to have kept quiet ??
 

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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Once when I was asked to go to a suspected treasure site - supposedly revolutionaries loot - I went, but reluctantly. It was in a dried up adobe soil swamp area. I quickly determined that there was no metal above the water level and tried to call it off. They refused and continued sloshing around i the wet adobe;

Being bored, I commenced to make impressions of a mint condition 8 Reale - I know, I should preserve it - but I was carrying it for luck, there were more at home - anyway the damp adobe was almost like modeling clay. so I made several impressions. About that time they gave up and we went home.

About a month later one of the men called me up and proceeded to give me hell, He said that a huge treasure of pre-revolutionary time had been found where we were. I was stumped for a bit, until he mentioned that the impression of the coins was still evident.

Hmmmm 2 + 2= 4. My playing around had been found and misinterpreted, I never did explain to him what really happened, didn't want to destroy his faith in treasures

They still talk of the deposit of loose coins having been found with a derrotero (map).by unknowns.

Was I wrong to have kept quiet ??
Click to expand...

Reale tramp stamp :eek:
 

Here is one of the coins that I used, incidentally, they were from another treasure.


8 REALES Alamos minted. 1885.jpg
 

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Your confession is well received, and you are hereby given absolution of your "sin". :laughing7:
 

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