HERE IS WHY TREASURE HUNTERS GET A BAD RAP!

[gollum]

Here is an example of why Archies despise Treasure Hunters:

A man named Doc Perrick was well a known treasure hunter in Southern New Mexico in the sixties and seventies. Most people that knew him said he was not a decent person. He supposedly scammed many old people out of their money to allow him to treasure hunt full time. That was not his most egregious behavior though.

.........I went to Flagstaff a few days after Doc got himself stabbed to death. I wanted to see if I could recover a book of photographs that Doc supposedly kept as a diary of the Indian and Spanish Drawings he found and would destroy. It was common knowledge that when Doc found Indian or Spanish Signs, he would photograph them and dynamite the site to spoil anyone else's chances to find the treasures that Doc felt rightly belonged to him.

Here is some more:



There are people today who care about nothing but what they can dig up. Whether its Civil War Artifacts, Native Artifacts, Treasure Caches, etc, they have no care for anything else but what makes them money. Don't get me wrong. I do what I do SOLELY because there is the great potential for a huge payday. What I have a problem with are people that do this and destroy history in the process.

Another example is when the story started being widely written that at a particular Jesuit Mission, treasure could be found under one of the walls. People came from miles around , and when they were done, nobody had found anything, and the whole place looked like a WWI Battlefield. In the Superstition Mountains in Arizona, it is well known that many old monuments were destroyed by old Dutch Hunters (for the same reasons as Doc Perrick above). If they thought it was a clue to the lost mine, it got torn down. Maybe a picture was snapped before, and a mark made on a map, but that piece of history was lost forever.

Most people know and understand this is wrong. Even dyed in the wool treasure hunters know better than to destroy something with historical significance. I just read this story about Doc Perrick and it struck a nerve, so I am just venting here. HAHAHA

Mike

 

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[lockster99]

That is just messed up. Hopefully "Doc" is in a place where digging will not get him out of.

 

[sdcfia]

Here is an example of why Archies despise Treasure Hunters:

A man named Doc Perrick was well a known treasure hunter in Southern New Mexico in the sixties and seventies. Most people that knew him said he was not a decent person. He supposedly scammed many old people out of their money to allow him to treasure hunt full time. That was not his most egregious behavior though.

There are people today who care about nothing but what they can dig up. Whether its Civil War Artifacts, Native Artifacts, Treasure Caches, etc, they have no care for anything else but what makes them money. Don't get me wrong. I do what I do SOLELY because there is the great potential for a huge payday. What I have a problem with are people that do this and destroy history in the process.

Another example is when the story started being widely written that at a particular Jesuit Mission, treasure could be found under one of the walls. People came from miles around , and when they were done, nobody had found anything, and the whole place looked like a WWI Battlefield. In the Superstition Mountains in Arizona, it is well known that many old monuments were destroyed by old Dutch Hunters (for the same reasons as Doc Perrick above). If they thought it was a clue to the lost mine, it got torn down. Maybe a picture was snapped before, and a mark made on a map, but that piece of history was lost forever.

Most people know and understand this is wrong. Even dyed in the wool treasure hunters know better than to destroy something with historical significance. I just read this story about Doc Perrick and it struck a nerve, so I am just venting here. HAHAHA

Mike

Ha ha - "archies despise treasure hunters" - ha ha. Good one, Mike, good one. I've known probably a dozen or so professional archies in my time. Half of them have "collected" the cream off the top of their projects, the other half wanted to but were afraid for their professional standing. Archies are just as human as the rest of us - hypocrites.

Get real. Perrick might have been nuts, but what he did was likely a direct result of his greed and paranoia, trying to protect "his treasure". This is a basic human response, one that very few people can control. It may be politically correct in today's climate to demonize him, but most who did so in the Caballos were merely pissed that he destroyed clues that may have led them to treasure too. This has nothing to do with "protecting history". If people wanted to protect that alleged Caballo history, then all those carvings, etc. would have been documented, photographed and cataloged.

Every abandoned mission in the southwest has been dug up for something of value by treasure hunters. Those that found the holes left behind weren't pissed at the digger, they were pissed that they were late to the party and wondered what the first guy found. Same goes for every Native American ruin exploited by ranchers, pot hunters and other "private collectors". Same goes for abandoned homesteads, empty buildings, rock piles and outhouses - you name it. Ever find an arrowhead, old railroad spike, old coin or historic shell casing on the ground that you pocketed? You're guilty too, only to a lesser degree. Let's say you get real lucky and find a jar of gold coins on an old fence line and seize it for your own use. You're just as guilty as Perrick - maybe more so if the cache rightfully belonged to the owner's descendants. "Lost history" isn't in the mix.

Perrick is a convenient bogeyman for us, yes, but when push comes to shove, he's not a lot different than any of us.

Jacobo Yrisarri - Salinas Pueblo Missions National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

 

[UncleMatt]

Preach it Brother Mike!

 

[UncleMatt]

sdcfia, I would never even think of destroying artifacts, even if it might lead others to a treasure I am seeking. And if I dug a hole looking for something, and found nothing, I would fill it back in...

 

[gollum]

Ha ha - "archies despise treasure hunters" - ha ha. Good one, Mike, good one. I've known probably a dozen or so professional archies in my time. Half of them have "collected" the cream off the top of their projects, the other half wanted to but were afraid for their professional standing. Archies are just as human as the rest of us - hypocrites.

Get real. Perrick might have been nuts, but what he did was likely a direct result of his greed and paranoia, trying to protect "his treasure". This is a basic human response, one that very few people can control. It may be politically correct in today's climate to demonize him, but most who did so in the Caballos were merely pissed that he destroyed clues that may have led them to treasure too. This has nothing to do with "protecting history". If people wanted to protect that alleged Caballo history, then all those carvings, etc. would have been documented, photographed and cataloged.

Every abandoned mission in the southwest has been dug up for something of value by treasure hunters. Those that found the holes left behind weren't pissed at the digger, they were pissed that they were late to the party and wondered what the first guy found. Same goes for every Native American ruin exploited by ranchers, pot hunters and other "private collectors". Same goes for abandoned homesteads, empty buildings, rock piles and outhouses - you name it. Ever find an arrowhead, old railroad spike, old coin or historic shell casing on the ground that you pocketed? You're guilty too, only to a lesser degree. Let's say you get real lucky and find a jar of gold coins on an old fence line and seize it for your own use. You're just as guilty as Perrick - maybe more so if the cache rightfully belonged to the owner's descendants. "Lost history" isn't in the mix.

Perrick is a convenient bogeyman for us, yes, but when push comes to shove, he's not a lot different than any of us.

Jacobo Yrisarri - Salinas Pueblo Missions National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

SDCFIA,

You could not be more wrong. There is a HUGE difference between someone that takes items for their own collections (which I do have a problem with), and someone that destroys historical artifacts. At least the Archies have taken the care to document their site. They make drawings and take photographs of any items they find in their excavations. At least there is an historical record of the item, where it came from, and how it was situated and found in the ground. Douches like Perrick had absolutely zero regard for any historical significance. You were right about one thing; Perrick did what he did out of greed and paranoia. God only knows what has been lost to history because of what he did. Just like the "Bloody Hands" wall by Victorio Peak. Dynamited and gone forever.

When I found those monuments I posted pictures of, I didn't touch them. When I realized what I had found, (like Perrick) I didn't want anybody to beat me to whatever those monuments led to, so I just spent as much time as was physically possible on site. Every monument I posted is still there. Even though he was a treasure hunter, Kenworthy never destroyed any of the many monuments he found. I say that because I have refound most of the ones he found in the Anza Borrego Desert.

Archies that want to prosecute some poor slob that finds an arrowhead in a streambed while they keep prize pieces for their own collections have a special place on my douchebag list. People that destroy monuments should be prosecuted. At least if we know that an Archie has a special collection, we can always rat them out so as to professionally embarrass them. The items in their collections are still around, and can be taken back into a museum. Perrick made certain that whatever he found was gone forever (except maybe in his little notebook). Screw Perrick and everybody like him.

You are also ABSOLUTELY wrong when you write that the people that came along and saw the missions dug up are just mad because they didn't get there first. When it happened in the 1800s, I can understand, because they didn't have any equipment that could see underground without digging. Since the 1960s, equipment available to the general public can look underground several feet in different ways. Between GPR, Magnetometers, and Two-Box Metal Detectors, a person can see up to about thirty feet below the surface. If you are certain that you are on top of a multimillion dollar treasure, and it is underneath some place with historical significance, why not rent a GPR and operator for $1200 per day? Not only would that help you to find the exact spot to dig, it would cause as little disruption to the historically significant above ground location. It would also show the powers that be, that you give a crap about more than just what you think is buried.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

Part of the problem is the mindset some treasure hunters have that if you seek something, you have the right to deprive others of it. Nothing could be more self-centered, mental, or immature.

Point being, don't think its just about you and your search, or that you have special rights to something just because you seek something. You wouldn't want people obstructing your treasure hunt, so return the favor.

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
When I found those monuments I posted pictures of, I didn't touch them. When I realized what I had found, (like Perrick) I didn't want anybody to beat me to whatever those monuments led to, so I just spent as much time as was physically possible on site. Every monument I posted is still there.
<cut>
Mike

When you locate markers such as the ones you posted photos of, or you become aware of similar discoveries or artifacts found by others, do you immediately contact California state, NFS, NPS, university, historical foundations, etc., to report the finds and their locations? If so, bully for you. If not, why not? You can't have it both ways. Or is it a "matter of degree"?

 

[sdcfia]

Part of the problem is the mindset some treasure hunters have that if you seek something, you have the right to deprive others of it. Nothing could be more self-centered, mental, or immature. I recently had an experience with someone who thought that because we were working together on a project that they could just take over and make it all about their priorities and goals, and steal my copyrighted material for their own use. Then they had the gall to accuse me of doing so, when I had done no such thing! Subsequently, I will never have anything to do with that person again.

Point being, don't think its just about you and your search, or that you have special rights to something just because you seek it. You wouldn't want people obstructing your treasure hunt, so return the favor.

We're all aware of the human nature of others - we can observe it and judge it. What we're not aware of is how we will personally react to testing situations, no matter how hard we pat ourselves on the back beforehand.

 

[Slingshot]

Yeah, in my neck of the woods it's Native American pictoglyphs which are chisled out of the limestone caves, bluffs, and boulders and sold to collectors. This is a very economically depressed region and the people here will do about anything for a $ as long as it doesn't involve punching a timeclock. They see it as easy money, but if people who pay the big $ for these weren't doing that the glyphs would still be in place, many of which were on state and federal land. So, between the local pot diggers and the rich collectors the pictoglyphs of the Cumberland Plateau are rapidly disappearing, along with the ancient unwritten history of the area, but the state has prosecuted several people for picking up surface points along the Tennessee River, under TVA control, which are completely out of any archaeological context. Also TVA property is now off limits to any detecting, including the kiddie parks and beaches. So, I'm dealing with 3 groups of idiots, the pot diggers, rich artifact collectors, and the state officials, all of whom I am totally disgusted with.

 

[gollum]

When you locate markers such as the ones you posted photos of, or you become aware of similar discoveries or artifacts found by others, do you immediately contact California state, NFS, NPS, university, historical foundations, etc., to report the finds and their locations? If so, bully for you. If not, why not? You can't have it both ways. Or is it a "matter of degree"?

Once again, you show a severe misunderstanding of the subject at hand. There is an ENORMOUS degree of difference between finding a monument and not reporting it, and finding a monument and destroying it. In my case, the monument will always be there for anyone to see.

Do I report some things? Absolutely. I had one I used to keep as a "get out of jail free card" in case I was ever caught doing something I should not be doing. I went for a long time without saying a word about it.



Its a seven foot long dinosaur skull in the Borrego Badlands. I told a Park Ranger friend about it a couple of years ago. That canyon has been put off limits to vehicular traffic for now.

I treasure hunt in a very ethical way. I use electronic equipment whenever possible. I have a couple of two box detectors and a flux gate magnetometer for very deep, and several large coils for a Minelab Pulse Induction Gold Machine that can get to about three feet on a large target. I have friends that I can call to use ground penetrating radar for extreme depth (30-40 feet depending on ground conditions).

You need to learn the difference between destruction and deception. HAHAHA If Perrick would have taken pictures of his finds, then marked them on a map, but not said anything, I would never have had a problem. Even if his monuments led to a treasure that someone else found. I have been very fortunate to have met several people whose great grandchildren will never have to work because of treasures they found. I don't begrudge anybody anything they might have found. Every time I hear that someone has found something, I just think about that as a confirmation that there are still treasures out there, if you just keep looking.

Mike

 

[Dennisjf12]

Something I would like to add, if your using your metal detector, and digging a hole, put down an old towel, and put all your lose dirt on the towel, when your done digging, take your towel and dump all the dirt back in the hole, and put the clump of grass back in the hole and use your foot to pack it all down, when you leave, it should look almost like its never been dug up, if you can't leave your hole looking like this, I don't want you digging in my yard, I have seen videos on Youtube.com, a person's yard looked a minefield, holes all over the place, have some respect leave the yard or ground like you found it, even if your in the woods, last thing I want to do is step in someones hole that a foot deep. I Think most people feel the same way I do. thank you.

 

[Slingshot]

I've noticed that when a site is reported to the authorities here, it soon disappears. I remember the old WWII saying "Loose lips sink ships" and go on with my research.

 

[sdcfia]

Once again, you show a severe misunderstanding of the subject at hand. There is an ENORMOUS degree of difference between finding a monument and not reporting it, and finding a monument and destroying it. In my case, the monument will always be there for anyone to see.

Do I report some things? Absolutely. I had one I used to keep as a "get out of jail free card" in case I was ever caught doing something I should not be doing. I went for a long time without saying a word about it.

Its a seven foot long dinosaur skull in the Borrego Badlands. I told a Park Ranger friend about it a couple of years ago. That canyon has been put off limits to vehicular traffic for now.

I treasure hunt in a very ethical way. I use electronic equipment whenever possible. I have a couple of two box detectors and a flux gate magnetometer for very deep, and several large coils for a Minelab Pulse Induction Gold Machine that can get to about three feet on a large target. I have friends that I can call to use ground penetrating radar for extreme depth (30-40 feet depending on ground conditions).

You need to learn the difference between destruction and deception. HAHAHA If Perrick would have taken pictures of his finds, then marked them on a map, but not said anything, I would never have had a problem. Even if his monuments led to a treasure that someone else found. I have been very fortunate to have met several people whose great grandchildren will never have to work because of treasures they found. I don't begrudge anybody anything they might have found. Every time I hear that someone has found something, I just think about that as a confirmation that there are still treasures out there, if you just keep looking.

Mike

So your bargaining chip was in your pocket in case you got caught ... caught doing what?

Did you report your monument trail the week you found it? For "history's sake"? Why not?

Those grandkids' legacy - do our "historians" know all the details? Thought not. Why not?

I have no misunderstandings here, and I'm not judging anything you or your friends have or haven't done. I don't care in the least. Destruction ... deception: it's all the same as far as "our history" is concerned. The reason I've been chiding you is that I know the difference between rain and someone pissing on my leg. You're no different than the rest of us - you'll massage the rules if there's a lot of money at stake. You just won't admit it.

 

[lockster99]

Wow....massage.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I likes me a good massage

 

[mdog]

I spent three years trying to get the state archeologists to check out a site for study and preservation and they were not interested at all. I got in touch with them the first day that I could prove what the site was. Since then, many important features of the site have been destroyed. In the past year I've discovered some things that I recently considered sharing with the archeologists... that isn't going to happen. They don't care.

 

[gollum]

SDCFIA,

In reference to my Get out of jail free card, I regularly travel up dry riverbeds that may be blocked or hike up to monuments to verify if they are man made or natural. I never said I was any kind of angel or philanthropist. I don't do destruction.

ONCE AGAIN, you could be further from understanding. SOMEHOW, you are only separating not reporting a monument to destroying one by degrees. Not only is that a crap comparison, the two are not even in the same universe. One leaves it alone and the other destroys it.

If I find something and keep it to myself; that's one thing. Whether I report the find to anybody or not makes no difference to the monument because it will always be there for anybody that sees it to enjoy or wonder about. I understand that because I DON'T destroy it, I am taking a risk that someone might come along right after me, and figure things out before I do. Then I lose what was there. So be it. I would not destroy an historical monument for a head start on others.

Maybe in your universe equating (by degrees) not reporting a found monument to destroying a found monument is okay. All I can say is that says more about you than the comparison itself.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,

In reference to my Get out of jail free card, I regularly travel up dry riverbeds that may be blocked or hike up to monuments to verify if they are man made or natural. I never said I was any kind of angel or philanthropist. I don't do destruction.

ONCE AGAIN, you could be further from understanding. SOMEHOW, you are only separating not reporting a monument to destroying one by degrees. Not only is that a crap comparison, the two are not even in the same universe. One leaves it alone and the other destroys it.

If I find something and keep it to myself; that's one thing. Whether I report the find to anybody or not makes no difference to the monument because it will always be there for anybody that sees it to enjoy or wonder about. I understand that because I DON'T destroy it, I am taking a risk that someone might come along right after me, and figure things out before I do. Then I lose what was there. So be it. I would not destroy an historical monument for a head start on others.

Maybe in your universe equating (by degrees) not reporting a found monument to destroying a found monument is okay. All I can say is that says more about you than the comparison itself.

Mike

I see that when all the blustering blows over, we're not that far apart, as usual. Like all of us who burn Vibram and go off-trail, I've found lots of unknown-to-anyone-else stuff in remote places - some of it quite intriguing. So what? Theoretically, some pointy-head should appreciate hearing about this stuff, for "history's sake". Read mdog's previous post - academias aren't interested in anything outside their own little boxes. So we bushwhackers catalog information for our own use. Why not? Do you have guilt feelings about withholding "historical data" from the professionals? Not me. And, what if the discoveries might possibly be "treasure-related"? Fo-gedda-bow-dit. I've trampled on more than one technical law without compunction in order to facilitate my gold lust when the rubber met the road. I trust most of us would have done the same. I can live with it.

Thanks to a very astute acquaintance, I've recently been given some absolutely mind-shattering information that would shock historians if revealed. Ironically, this is information that any researcher could discover and verify on his own if he had a curious enough mind. In no way would I reveal these things to other than my trusted colleagues. Why? Because we all make our own rules in life - ones that we can live with and accept the consequences for. No use trying to candy-coat that fact. My sin in this case might be one of omission. This thread started with Perrick's sins of commission in the Caballos. If any of us found carvings we believed would lead us to a cave of gold, are we really sure we would have left those carvings intact?

 

[Loke]

are we really sure we would have left those carvings intact?

yup! - but I wouldn't tell anyone about it! (with one - make that two - exceptions :-)