✅ SOLVED Help needed further identifying a possible CW carbine sling buckle

[invent4hir]

Hi everyone,

Does anyone have access to one or more of the following 3 books?
1. Confederate general service accoutrement plates by Lon W. Keim
2. Confederate belt buckles and plates by Steve E. Mullinax
3. American military belt plates by Michael J. O'Donnell & J. Duncan Campbell

If so, can you tell me if the buckle appearing on the left side of the attached photo is in it? If it is, I’d appreciate a reply with which book you found it in, the name of the buckle, whether it is Union or Confederate, the page number, and if possible a photo.

I’ve been told it is of the Civil War era. After comparing it to 100s of photos on-line, the closest match is shown on the right. That buckle appeared on a website entitled Civil War slings. The only info for this particular buckle is “Pictures and information courtesy of Jerry Jackson of Confederate States Military Antiques 1082842741”. I did a search but came up empty handed.

This information found will be part of a presentation I give to members of a church upon whose land I found the buckle.

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

I own the Keim, Mullinax, and O'Donnell-&-Campbell books on American Military Belt Plates. Your 3-tongue buckle does not appear in any of them.

The Mullinax book does show a Confederate carbine sling buckle. Like the yankee-made version, it has two tongues.

In the photo you posted, your 3-tongue buckle appears to be made of thin iron. If so, it is not a Military buckle.

I believe the "Civil War Slings" website is incorrect... the 3-tongue buckle shown there is definitely not a civil war buckle. Its tongue-bar has centering-flanges (also called "stays") which keep the tongue(s) from sliding off-center on the bar. See the photo below. That characterisitic is not seen on buckles until about 1900. Your buckle has "stays" on its tongue-bar.

 

[invent4hir]

TheCannonballGuy,

Thank you so much for looking through all 3 books and education on "stays". That must have been hugely time consuming and is most appreciated. I think the buckle is brass. While cleaning it, a small bit of the patina came off and it shows a brass color. Also, checking it with a magnet shows the buckle to be non-magnetic. Given that "stays" didn't appear until about 1900, I'll give some more thought to the buckle's origin before giving the presentation. v/r invent4hir

 

[Davers]

Great info & Id .
Talk about the "errornet".

I would have swore the buckles pictured were of Civil War Vintage with the Iron (looking) one being Confederate .

"Stays" is my word for the Week.

Still a neat find OP , esp, if Brass.

 

[invent4hir]

Two things are causing me to re-think this…

First, I found an excellent article entitled “The Confederate Issue Cavalry Carbine Sling”. Reading the article, it seems to me that there a lot of factors that created a lot of versions of Confederate carbine sling buckles and related equipment. Among these are whether the buckle was manufactured before or after the Confederacy had ordnance regulations, whether said regulations were followed, variances in manufacturing capacity, material shortages, and access to imports. The Confederate eastern, western and Trans-Mississippi departments reacted differently to the challenge of supplying carbine slings to their troops. It makes me wonder if any reference book can show all the versions of Confederate carbine sling buckles.

Second, additional research today shows another CW buckle with “stays”. This large brass Confederate sash buckle can be seen at Gettysburg Civil War Relics | Civil War Gift Insignia | Gettysburg Artifacts, Bullets, Cannon Balls. In addition to “stays”, it has similar dimensions as the one I found (3 ¾” tall x 2” wide). Two other buckles with “stays” were also found. But like me, the detectorists that unearthed those buckles question the ID because of the “stays”. These can be seen at CampSite Artifacts *· and https://www.findmall.com/read.php?30,1005743, respectively.

At this point I’m leaving the door open to the possibility that the 3 buckles mentioned above, as well as the one I found, are undocumented versions of Confederate buckles. I also encourage feedback from one and all.

 

[civil_war22]

Don’t believe everything you see from them on campsite artifacts

 

[CRUSADER]

Two things are causing me to re-think this…

First, I found an excellent article entitled “The Confederate Issue Cavalry Carbine Sling”. Reading the article, it seems to me that there a lot of factors that created a lot of versions of Confederate carbine sling buckles and related equipment. Among these are whether the buckle was manufactured before or after the Confederacy had ordnance regulations, whether said regulations were followed, variances in manufacturing capacity, material shortages, and access to imports. The Confederate eastern, western and Trans-Mississippi departments reacted differently to the challenge of supplying carbine slings to their troops. It makes me wonder if any reference book can show all the versions of Confederate carbine sling buckles.

Second, additional research today shows another CW buckle with “stays”. This large brass Confederate sash buckle can be seen at Gettysburg Civil War Relics | Civil War Gift Insignia | Gettysburg Artifacts, Bullets, Cannon Balls. In addition to “stays”, it has similar dimensions as the one I found (3 ¾” tall x 2” wide). Two other buckles with “stays” were also found. But like me, the detectorists that unearthed those buckles question the ID because of the “stays”. These can be seen at CampSite Artifacts *· and https://www.findmall.com/read.php?30,1005743, respectively.

At this point I’m leaving the door open to the possibility that the 3 buckles mentioned above, as well as the one I found, are undocumented versions of Confederate buckles. I also encourage feedback from one and all.

I agree with CBG. The fixed pins or stays didn't get manufactured until after the CW, so it really doesn't matter what you read from this point on unless they had time-machines.

 

[creskol]

Out of my 1940 Whitby Brand catalog:

 

[civil_war22]

Like CBG, Crusader, and Creskol have said those buckles weren’t designed or used till well after the war. The campsite artifacts guys are dreamers on a lot of there stuff they have and sell it based off little given proof. That’s what they do. They find these pieces and if they can’t immediately ID them then they find something close and sell it for something considered a rarity. They’re not in it for the historical significance or verified proof their in it for the money.

 

[creskol]

....... The campsite artifacts guys are dreamers on a lot of there stuff they have and sell it based off little given proof. That’s what they do. They find these pieces and if they can’t immediately ID them then they find something close and sell it for something considered a rarity. They’re not in it for the historical significance or verified proof their in it for the money.

I have found that to be true with even the most reputable "dealers." That isn't unique to Campsite!

 

[civil_war22]

Hate to down them seeing how I know some of the guys they buy local relics from but I just don’t like the fact they make up their own storyline to sell their goods. I’m the type of guy that if I find something that is pertinent to our local history then it should stay local. Selling it to Abu in India isn’t something I see as right. There are some things I sell that I find but they are mostly coins or jewelry and don’t have any historical significance to the areas I hunt

 

[invent4hir]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. Just one more request. Please provide me with one or more of your sources that state buckles like mine weren’t designed or used till well after the war. I need to educate the firearms expert at Cowan's Auctions (they do the PBS series Antiques Roadshow), who originally IDed the buckle as a Civil War carbine sling buckle, that the "stays" were a characteristic not seen on buckles until later. Apparently he missed that detail when IDing it.

 

[civil_war22]

I think they’ve said and shown all there needs to be shown. If you didn’t like their opinion or expertise in this matter then why ask? You may see this guy as a reputable guy because he is a firearms expert but these guys have been doing this 30+ years and most of them here know a buckle or two when they see one. Not doubting your buckle here but just like the heart shaped brass “ blanket buckle” was supposedly civil war related and swore by many and sold as that to several unknowing people. Not all is what it seems.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

is it possible that those ''stays'' were not manufactured but worn into the buckle
from extended use

 

[CRUSADER]

is it possible that those ''stays'' were not manufactured but worn into the buckle
from extended use

Nope, the pins are the weak point as they are rolled at the end & connected like a ring. This splits open before it puts enough pressure to wear the metal it mets.

 

[CRUSADER]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. Just one more request. Please provide me with one or more of your sources that state buckles like mine weren’t designed or used till well after the war. I need to educate the firearms expert at Cowan's Auctions (they do the PBS series Antiques Roadshow), who originally IDed the buckle as a Civil War carbine sling buckle, that the "stays" were a characteristic not seen on buckles until later. Apparently he missed that detail when IDing it.

Really?
You already have a 1940 Whitby Cat. with these types of buckles. (THERE IS YOUR REFERENCE)
There is not going to be a reference book that covers modern 20th C Buckles & earlier ones in the way that you want it. Why would it? In the UK its all about Roman, Saxon & Medieval. Some post-medieval books go up-to the 18th C, but few covers the 20th C.
In the US your interests mostly span the 18th-19th C (RW & CW) so why would they write about modern 20th C types which are irrelevant when discussing these periods?
Think about it!

 

[CRUSADER]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. Just one more request. Please provide me with one or more of your sources that state buckles like mine weren’t designed or used till well after the war. I need to educate the firearms expert at Cowan's Auctions (they do the PBS series Antiques Roadshow), who originally IDed the buckle as a Civil War carbine sling buckle, that the "stays" were a characteristic not seen on buckles until later. Apparently he missed that detail when IDing it.

https://www.ukdfd.co.uk/v46/artefac...es/double-loop-asymmetrical-buckle-41921.html
In the UK references for 19th-20th C artefacts are rare because the PAS doesn't record them & the only other database is the UKDFD (Above link). They have very few 20th C examples as most Brits are not interested in modern finds, so above is not a match for your buckle but it does show the 'collars' on the pin bar.
These 'collars' did start in the late 19th C, circa 1880s, but for the most part were mostly manufactured in the 20th C. So, that is why as a rule of thumb you can ID most as 20th C.
If you want a reference book that shows these 'collars' on page 47 where they are IDed as 20th C examples then share this with your 'expert' ;
'BUCKLES'
Alan & Gillian Meredith
ISBN 978-0-7478-0691-2

Not sure why I spent so much time on this, but if this is not enough for your expert, then there is no hope.

 

[civil_war22]

https://www.ukdfd.co.uk/v46/artefac...es/double-loop-asymmetrical-buckle-41921.html
In the UK references for 19th-20th C artefacts are rare because the PAS doesn't record them & the only other database is the UKDFD (Above link). They have very few 20th C examples as most Brits are not interested in modern finds, so above is not a match for your buckle but it does show the 'collars' on the pin bar.
These 'collars' did start in the late 19th C, circa 1880s, but for the most part were mostly manufactured in the 20th C. So, that is why as a rule of thumb you can ID most as 20th C.
If you want a reference book that shows these 'collars' on page 47 where they are IDed as 20th C examples then share this with your 'expert' ;
'BUCKLES'
Alan & Gillian Meredith
ISBN 978-0-7478-0691-2

Not sure why I spent so much time on this, but if this is not enough for your expert, then there is no hope.

Couldn’t have said it better. Why you’d go to a auction house over a buckle that quite possibly wouldn’t bring a whole lot at auction is beyond me less you actually knew the guy in which case why come here and ask if you weren’t going to believe us anyways

 

[HuntinDog]

I think you guys are taking invent4hir wrong...
I think this buckle was dug at a church and he is trying to ID it's date.

The "expert" he took it to said it was CW and he thinks YOU are right and would like to have something to back it up when he
tell his "expert" that they are wrong.

Or maybe I'm the one reading this all wrong...

Anyway... my 2 cents on the matter

Cheers

 

[CRUSADER]

I think you guys are taking invent4hir wrong...
I think this buckle was dug at a church and he is trying to ID it's date.

The "expert" he took it to said it was CW and he thinks YOU are right and would like to have something to back it up when he
tell his "expert" that they are wrong.

Or maybe I'm the one reading this all wrong...

Anyway... my 2 cents on the matter

Cheers

I've yet to met an expert who likes to be embarrassed.