Help Identify this button....

[MinelabSwinger]

Found this button at a foundation site dating to the 1790-1810 range. It could be an older site I am just guessing at the age....The coins found here are all from 1774-1837

 

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[Alchemy]

Nice clears pics!

I know nothing about buttons, but I was struck by that fact this looked like obsidian to me, almost like rainbow obsidian.
What does it feel like it's made of and what does the back look like?

Oh and I just saw this is your first post...welcome!

 

[Sky Pilot]

Sorry, I can't help on the I.D., but welcome to TreasureNet!! It won't be long before one of our members, (who are VERY know ledgable!), can help, if they see your post. This is the best forum on the net, in my opinion! Great finds, by the way! Great hunting and good luck! Once again, a BIG WELCOME!! Regards, Richard

 

[CRUSADER]

I assume its a one piece & had a copper-alloy loop soldered on the reverse. It looks typically 1780s but has a Livery style decoration. Very Nice

 

[trish76642]

Looks like obsidian to me too Alchemy...

Are ya sure its a button MineLab? Ya know Indians used to use obsidian in trade..i can see the 2 arrows on it. Never know.

If it is a button, i wonder if it sat flush in some sort of metal backing that held the shank?

 

[BuckleBoy]

I assume its a one piece & had a copper-alloy loop soldered on the reverse. It looks typically 1780s but has a Livery style decoration. Very Nice

I agree with Crusader. Nice crossed arrows design. One piece flat button, silver gilded brass, 1780s.

 

[fortbball9]

I assume its a one piece & had a copper-alloy loop soldered on the reverse. It looks typically 1780s but has a Livery style decoration. Very Nice

I agree with Crusader. Nice crossed arrows design. One piece flat button, silver gilded brass, 1780s.

I also agree,Could we see a pic of the back.

fortbball9

 

[MinelabSwinger]

It was found by a friend of mine. It has a full shank on the back but no back mark. He was wondering if it was a military button. The 1780s sounds right due to the other coins found on this site. I have found 2 1796 Liberty Cap,1798 Draped,1799 Draped (that is right... 1799.....It is in poor shape but the date is VERY visible)1800, 3 1802's and 3 1803's and a 1837 LC. I also found 5 or 6 1787 KG Coppers, 1 NJ Copper, 1 Conn copper, 1 1785 Nova, 1 Half KG, 1 1774 1 Real, 1 1774 1/2 real and several other colonials at this site. Not to mention over 100 buttons. This site is a dream site for me.... I am so lucky to have gotten permission on it. It is almost 700 Acres of corn field and so far we have only hit about 1/3 of an acre on either side of the road. I am still shocked by the condition of the 1798,1800 and 1803 Largies because they are just about mint. I will be posting photos in the Todays find section tomorrow. The 1796's are pretty rough but full dates and the 1799 is sadly pretty rough. That coin has a very bold date though. I wonder if it is still worth anything in that condition. Thanks for the replys and the welcome to the site! I can not wait for day 4 at this site to see what other goodies it brings! HH

 

[CRUSADER]

It was found by a friend of mine. It has a full shank on the back but no back mark. He was wondering if it was a military button. The 1780s sounds right due to the other coins found on this site. I have found 2 1796 Liberty Cap,1798 Draped,1799 Draped (that is right... 1799.....It is in poor shape but the date is VERY visible)1800, 3 1802's and 3 1803's and a 1837 LC. I also found 5 or 6 1787 KG Coppers, 1 NJ Copper, 1 Conn copper, 1 1785 Nova, 1 Half KG, 1 1774 1 Real, 1 1774 1/2 real and several other colonials at this site. Not to mention over 100 buttons. This site is a dream site for me.... I am so lucky to have gotten permission on it. It is almost 700 Acres of corn field and so far we have only hit about 1/3 of an acre on either side of the road. I am still shocked by the condition of the 1798,1800 and 1803 Largies because they are just about mint. I will be posting photos in the Todays find section tomorrow. The 1796's are pretty rough but full dates and the 1799 is sadly pretty rough. That coin has a very bold date though. I wonder if it is still worth anything in that condition. Thanks for the replys and the welcome to the site! I can not wait for day 4 at this site to see what other goodies it brings! HH

Its not a military button & the 'no backmark' fits with the date given. This type of 'Livery' design was used on land owners servant uniforms etc. The Lord of the manor type would have the same livery on his button but it would be a far better quality, often in solid silver. However, middle-class people would often try & use buttons like this to impress others.

 

[thrillathahunt]

Why cannot this one be solid silver?

 

[BuckleBoy]

Why cannot this one be solid silver?

Because the fact that the gilding is worn off and bare brass is showing in spots is plainly visible in the photos.



Best Wishes,



Buckle

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Very nice find!

 

[allen]

great looking button !!

 

[johnnyi]

I was browsing through some of the old "what is it" posts and happened upon this extremely interesting and unsolved find.

It may very well be livery, yet although livery buttons are found in great numbers in the U.K, and no one thinks twice about them there, they very rarely are found here in the U.S.. As well (crusader correct me if I'm wrong) most know liveries with arrows incorporated into the design involve a grouping, a quiver, etc. rather than crossed pair as this one is. It makes you want to look at this one a little closer.

There's more to this button than crossed arrows. There also seems to be beads incorporated into the design. The American Indian symbol for friendship is two crossed arrows. Beads are also regarded as a primary symbol and substance for trade between Indians and Europeans (and early Americans i.e. Lewis and Clark). We don't know exactly where it was found, but judging from the Conn. copper, it could be N.Y. State. Considering the long history of trade during and probably after the French and Indians wars It could possibly be a trade item.

 

[Iron Patch]

There must be different lines of Livery buttons because that is no where near the type of construction I associate with being a Livery button.

 

[IronSpike]

I remember this 'sweet button thread' and a great find MinelabSwinger

Livery button was my first thought also, but couldn't find anything. Date range most likely in line with other finds at location.

 

[johnnyi]

"There must be different lines of Livery buttons because that is no where near the type of construction I associate with being a Livery button. "

Iron Patch, I think there are so many things to consider about this button which makes it for me anyway, one of the most intersting finds to appear here.

Consider livery, which would be the easiest category to place this in (but upon reflection, maybe the least likely)

If you delve through heraldic symbols and elements you occasionally find arrows, though they are rarely crossed in a pair (Norway is one exception). They consist of groupings of three or more, parallel arrows, single arrows, quivers of arrows, etc.. What crossed arrows that do exist are more the style of bolts, with tapered feathers and non-barbed points. In fact almost all arrows used in arms are that style of feather and point.

Yet this button bears the style of arrow which we associate with "Indian" arrows; barbed points, rough feathers, the universal symbol of "friendship" of two crossed arrows; and finally if that was not enough, the addition of what appear to be a string of beads, an ultimate symbol of trade between the "white man" and the American Indian. These hardly seem to be the "arms" or crest of a rich land owner.

We haven't seen the shank so we can't determine a date. What if it is as late as 1780's or possibly 90's though? We are only talking about twenty years since the end of the French and Indian Wars. We are talking about a very short period of time when relationships and ties still had to be strengthened, treaties still strengthened, as there were still many potential threats to worry about by more than one interested European party or government. *1

We know so little about many early buttons, which is obvious when we see only one or two examples of many military buttons of the period, yet which had to have been produced in fairly large numbers. Gifts to chiefs, etc., would probably have been produced in far fewer numbers. Regarding their style, it would seem logical that as time progressed their elements would have evolved also into something into something a little more civilized than the crude brass buttons ("bright trinkets") which were original gifts to a population still unfamiliar with European ways.

I personally think this is one of the most interesting and potentially important finds to ever appear here, and it deserves to be positively identified as livery, and if that's not possible, to be considered as a possibly museum worthy find deserving further research..

*1 "During the American Revolution, many Tuscarora and the Oneida sided with the Americans, while the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga and Cayuga remained loyal to Great Britain. This marked the first major split among the Six Nations. Joseph Louis Cook offered his services to the United States and received a Congressional commission as a Lieutenant Colonel- the highest rank held by any Native American during the war.[28] However, after a series of successful operations against frontier settlements, led by the Mohawk war chief Joseph Brant, other war chiefs, and British allies; the United States reacted with vengeance. In 1779, George Washington ordered the Sullivan Campaign led by Col. Daniel Brodhead and General John Sullivan against the Iroquois nations to "not merely overrun, but destroy," the British-Indian alliance."

 

[Iron Patch]

"There must be different lines of Livery buttons because that is no where near the type of construction I associate with being a Livery button. "

Iron Patch, I think there are so many things to consider about this button which makes it for me anyway, one of the most intersting finds to appear here.

Consider livery, which would be the easiest category to place this in (but upon reflection, maybe the least likely)

If you delve through heraldic symbols and elements you occasionally find arrows, though they are rarely crossed in a pair (Norway is one exception). They consist of groupings of three or more, parallel arrows, single arrows, quivers of arrows, etc.. What crossed arrows that do exist are more the style of bolts, with tapered feathers and non-barbed points. In fact almost all arrows used in arms are that style of feather and point.

Yet this button bears the style of arrow which we associate with "Indian" arrows; barbed points, rough feathers, the universal symbol of "friendship" of two crossed arrows; and finally if that was not enough, the addition of what appear to be a string of beads, an ultimate symbol of trade between the "white man" and the American Indian. These hardly seem to be the "arms" or crest of a rich land owner.

We haven't seen the shank so we can't determine a date. What if it is as late as 1780's or possibly 90's though? We are only talking about twenty years since the end of the French and Indian Wars. We are talking about a very short period of time when relationships and ties still had to be strengthened, treaties still strengthened, as there were still many potential threats to worry about by more than one interested European party or government.

We know so little about many early buttons, which is obvious when we see only one or two examples of many military buttons of the period, yet which had to have been produced in fairly large numbers. Gifts to chiefs, etc., would probably have been produced in far fewer numbers. Regarding their style, it would seem logical that as time progressed their elements would have evolved also into something into something a little more civilized than the crude brass buttons ("bright trinkets") which were original gifts to a population still unfamiliar with European ways.

I personally think this is one of the most interesting and potentially important finds to ever appear here, and it deserves to be positively identified as livery, and if that's not possible, to be considered as a possibly museum worthy find deserving further research..

All I'm saying is if it's the Livery category you're putting it in that has hundreds of different patterns of buttons, the ones we see posted often, don't because it's not the same. Just take a look at several and you'll see the front is made different, and the back even more so once the poster adds a pic of it. The one above pre-dates most, if not all Livery buttons ..1790s vs 1820/30s and later. (I'll have to check a little to back up those dates, but Livery buttons no not appear to be as early as 1700s the way they're made)

On something like this button I would expect to see an engraved flower, thistle, etc.. The arrow design in my opinion is just another misc. design put on there for whatever reason. If it was Indian I'd guess it would be more like a silver trade piece than a silver plated Colonial button.

I along with the rest of you don't know for sure what it is but that's what makes sense to me.


PS... I like the old designed buttons!

 

[CRUSADER]

"There must be different lines of Livery buttons because that is no where near the type of construction I associate with being a Livery button. "

Iron Patch, I think there are so many things to consider about this button which makes it for me anyway, one of the most intersting finds to appear here.

Consider livery, which would be the easiest category to place this in (but upon reflection, maybe the least likely)

If you delve through heraldic symbols and elements you occasionally find arrows, though they are rarely crossed in a pair (Norway is one exception). They consist of groupings of three or more, parallel arrows, single arrows, quivers of arrows, etc.. What crossed arrows that do exist are more the style of bolts, with tapered feathers and non-barbed points. In fact almost all arrows used in arms are that style of feather and point.

Yet this button bears the style of arrow which we associate with "Indian" arrows; barbed points, rough feathers, the universal symbol of "friendship" of two crossed arrows; and finally if that was not enough, the addition of what appear to be a string of beads, an ultimate symbol of trade between the "white man" and the American Indian. These hardly seem to be the "arms" or crest of a rich land owner.

We haven't seen the shank so we can't determine a date. What if it is as late as 1780's or possibly 90's though? We are only talking about twenty years since the end of the French and Indian Wars. We are talking about a very short period of time when relationships and ties still had to be strengthened, treaties still strengthened, as there were still many potential threats to worry about by more than one interested European party or government.

We know so little about many early buttons, which is obvious when we see only one or two examples of many military buttons of the period, yet which had to have been produced in fairly large numbers. Gifts to chiefs, etc., would probably have been produced in far fewer numbers. Regarding their style, it would seem logical that as time progressed their elements would have evolved also into something into something a little more civilized than the crude brass buttons ("bright trinkets") which were original gifts to a population still unfamiliar with European ways.

I personally think this is one of the most interesting and potentially important finds to ever appear here, and it deserves to be positively identified as livery, and if that's not possible, to be considered as a possibly museum worthy find deserving further research..

All I'm saying is if it's the Livery category you're putting it in that has hundreds of different patterns of buttons, the ones we see posted often, don't because it's not the same. Just take a look at several and you'll see the front is made different, and the back even more so once the poster adds a pic of it. The one above pre-dates most, if not all Livery buttons ..1790s vs 1820/30s and later. (I'll have to check a little to back up those dates, but Livery buttons no not appear to be as early as 1700s the way they're made)

On something like this button I would expect to see an engraved flower, thistle, etc.. The arrow design in my opinion is just another misc. design put on there for whatever reason. If it was Indian I'd guess it would be more like a silver trade piece than a silver plated Colonial button.

I along with the rest of you don't know for sure what it is but that's what makes sense to me.


PS... I like the old designed buttons!

I totally agree, thats why I said "looks typically 1780s but has a Livery style".

It doesn't follow the normal Livery construction. I do have plain reverse liverys but they don't pre-date 1790s (I believe, I too would love to know when the earliest date is).
This looks more like the buttons you posted & I have many of which fall more into the 'Dandy' range. I explained what a Livery Button was, but I'm not 100% convinced it is, only in a style of before they even did them Interesting button really

 

[Iron Patch]

"There must be different lines of Livery buttons because that is no where near the type of construction I associate with being a Livery button. "

Iron Patch, I think there are so many things to consider about this button which makes it for me anyway, one of the most intersting finds to appear here.

Consider livery, which would be the easiest category to place this in (but upon reflection, maybe the least likely)

If you delve through heraldic symbols and elements you occasionally find arrows, though they are rarely crossed in a pair (Norway is one exception). They consist of groupings of three or more, parallel arrows, single arrows, quivers of arrows, etc.. What crossed arrows that do exist are more the style of bolts, with tapered feathers and non-barbed points. In fact almost all arrows used in arms are that style of feather and point.

Yet this button bears the style of arrow which we associate with "Indian" arrows; barbed points, rough feathers, the universal symbol of "friendship" of two crossed arrows; and finally if that was not enough, the addition of what appear to be a string of beads, an ultimate symbol of trade between the "white man" and the American Indian. These hardly seem to be the "arms" or crest of a rich land owner.

We haven't seen the shank so we can't determine a date. What if it is as late as 1780's or possibly 90's though? We are only talking about twenty years since the end of the French and Indian Wars. We are talking about a very short period of time when relationships and ties still had to be strengthened, treaties still strengthened, as there were still many potential threats to worry about by more than one interested European party or government.

We know so little about many early buttons, which is obvious when we see only one or two examples of many military buttons of the period, yet which had to have been produced in fairly large numbers. Gifts to chiefs, etc., would probably have been produced in far fewer numbers. Regarding their style, it would seem logical that as time progressed their elements would have evolved also into something into something a little more civilized than the crude brass buttons ("bright trinkets") which were original gifts to a population still unfamiliar with European ways.

I personally think this is one of the most interesting and potentially important finds to ever appear here, and it deserves to be positively identified as livery, and if that's not possible, to be considered as a possibly museum worthy find deserving further research..

All I'm saying is if it's the Livery category you're putting it in that has hundreds of different patterns of buttons, the ones we see posted often, don't because it's not the same. Just take a look at several and you'll see the front is made different, and the back even more so once the poster adds a pic of it. The one above pre-dates most, if not all Livery buttons ..1790s vs 1820/30s and later. (I'll have to check a little to back up those dates, but Livery buttons no not appear to be as early as 1700s the way they're made)

On something like this button I would expect to see an engraved flower, thistle, etc.. The arrow design in my opinion is just another misc. design put on there for whatever reason. If it was Indian I'd guess it would be more like a silver trade piece than a silver plated Colonial button.

I along with the rest of you don't know for sure what it is but that's what makes sense to me.


PS... I like the old designed buttons!

I totally agree, thats why I said "looks typically 1780s but has a Livery style".

It doesn't follow the normal Livery construction. I do have plain reverse liverys but they don't pre-date 1790s (I believe, I too would love to know when the earliest date is).
This looks more like the buttons you posted & I have many of which fall more into the 'Dandy' range. I explained what a Livery Button was, but I'm not 100% convinced it is, only in a style of before they even did them Interesting button really

What I'm wondering is if there was family buttons that predate what we consider the Livery ones? My friend found a very nice engraved button and was suggested it might even have a connection to Royalty. I think that might be a bit of a stretch but really don't know.