HELP ID civil war (?) round balls with measurements

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

With my new equipment i am able to measure the round balls i have been digging in an area. i have 5 of them, each varies a little in weight and diameter. One in pic is cut, did not measure.

Now that we know the ACTUAL measurements below, PLEASE HELP ID

MEASUREMENT (listed in ranges as i measured 3 round balls)

8.3-8.65 grams (.292 oz to .311 oz) (113.5 to 136.4 grains)

11.55 - 11.77 millimeters (.450 - .463 inches)

.45 caliber (give or take)

 

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[BosnMate]

To large for a .45 caliber rifle, so that leaves the model 1860 .44 caliber Colt cap and ball pistol. It's a six shooter, and they used oversized lead balls, and actually cut a lead ring off the ball when it was loaded. The tight fit was suppose to seal the charge so it wouldn't flash over and set off the rest of the loaded chambers. I can attest to the fact that doesn't always work, and it is wise to put heavy grease over each ball to keep that from happening. Your balls would be drops, they haven't been fired. I had a .44 caliber colt myself, and I used .451 balls when loading it.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

To large for a .45 caliber rifle, so that leaves the model 1860 .44 caliber Colt cap and ball pistol. It's a six shooter, and they used oversized lead balls, and actually cut a lead ring off the ball when it was loaded. The tight fit was suppose to seal the charge so it wouldn't flash over and set off the rest of the loaded chambers. I can attest to the fact that doesn't always work, and it is wise to put heavy grease over each ball to keep that from happening. Your balls would be drops, they haven't been fired. I had a .44 caliber colt myself, and I used .451 balls when loading it.

why are they too large for a .45 caliber rifle? curious.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

To large for a .45 caliber rifle, so that leaves the model 1860 .44 caliber Colt cap and ball pistol. It's a six shooter, and they used oversized lead balls, and actually cut a lead ring off the ball when it was loaded. The tight fit was suppose to seal the charge so it wouldn't flash over and set off the rest of the loaded chambers. I can attest to the fact that doesn't always work, and it is wise to put heavy grease over each ball to keep that from happening. Your balls would be drops, they haven't been fired. I had a .44 caliber colt myself, and I used .451 balls when loading it.

i am reading about the weapon you suggested, i think this may be it. very cool. how likely do you think this is what the round balls i found are? read about it here,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Army_Model_1860

 

[BosnMate]

why are they too large for a .45 caliber rifle? curious.

Because The barrel on a .45 caliber rifle is .45 hundredths, and the ball, being loaded from the muzzle would not fit down the bore. In order to load a muzzle loader the ball has to be under bore size by several thousandths of an inch. I didn't have a .45, but the balls I cast for my ,50 caliber measured .495. To load the rifle you pour a measured charge of black powder down the bore, then place some patch material over the muzzle, then the ball, short start the ball, and cut the patch material off at the muzzle, then ram the ball down onto the powder. The patch material needs to be cotton, and lubed, and a tight weave. The old timers lube their patch material with bear grease, or coon grease, or even spit. On my .50, like I said, I used a .459 ball, the patch material was .017 thick pillow ticking, and if I was shooting targets in competition, I lubed with soap and water, however if I was hunting and the gun was going to be loaded all day, then I'd use grease for a lube. The 17 thousandth patch material crushes down when the gun is loaded, making a tight fit that is still able to be rammed down the barrel. Here is a link that shows how to load a rifle. He is using a .490 ball and a pre cut patch, and his pillow ticking is 18 thousandth, I miked the stuff I use and it was .017, I like to cut the patch at the muzzle, but this video will give you a very good idea how the gun is loaded.

 

[BosnMate]

i am reading about the weapon you suggested, i think this may be it. very cool. how likely do you think this is what the round balls i found are? read about it here,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Army_Model_1860

Frankly I can't think of anything else they could be, or what else they would have been used for. 1860 model colts are still being manufactured today, but the patina on what you found makes me think they are pretty old. That doesn't mean civil war, because someone in 1900 could have been shooting for fun. You just don't know, but if you are finding other civil war artifacts in conjunction with the bullets you are finding, then that's a pretty good indication of the age. Lets face it, it's not an exact science, and accurate measurements in thousands of an inch are critical to proper identification of a found bullet.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

Frankly I can't think of anything else they could be, or what else they would have been used for. 1860 model colts are still being manufactured today, but the patina on what you found makes me think they are pretty old. That doesn't mean civil war, because someone in 1900 could have been shooting for fun. You just don't know, but if you are finding other civil war artifacts in conjunction with the bullets you are finding, then that's a pretty good indication of the age. Lets face it, it's not an exact science, and accurate measurements in thousands of an inch are critical to proper identification of a found bullet.

thanks for your detailed replies. much appreciated. yes, i agree one needs to triangulate finds in order to establish connections to an event like the civil war. being honest, i have detected that area quite extensively and have found no other civil war relics/artifacts or any other things to date any time period older than say 1940 (wheat penny). in terms of old, I only find pistol balls spread across about a 200 yard area. making me wonder about whether they were civil war. you would think i would find a button, coin, anything to date to that period. so far, notta.

i cant see someone hunting with the 1860 colt, can you? maybe target shooting, but these are spread out considerably. but, i am happy to track them down to the colt.

do you think my measurements are specific enough? i tried to get them precise.

 

[capsmith]

I don't think they were shot in a pistol . They should have a flat all the way around where the lead was shaved off pushing the ball into the cylinder . They could be drop.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

I don't think they were shot in a pistol . They should have a flat all the way around where the lead was shaved off pushing the ball into the cylinder . They could be drop.

no, i did not mean to imply these were shot with a pistol, these are drops. was simply noting that these are prob from the 1860 colt. meaning, they are the round balls to that gun.

 

[l.cutler]

Not necessarily for an 1860, there were other Colt models and other brand revolvers that used the same caliber ball. There were also odd caliber rifles, many of the old rifle barrels were hand made and rifled and could have been any caliber. A rifle in .46 to .47 caliber could have taken a ball in that size. While we would all love to know the exact provenance of our finds, you will probably never know with any certainty.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

Not necessarily for an 1860, there were other Colt models and other brand revolvers that used the same caliber ball. There were also odd caliber rifles, many of the old rifle barrels were hand made and rifled and could have been any caliber. A rifle in .46 to .47 caliber could have taken a ball in that size. While we would all love to know the exact provenance of our finds, you will probably never know with any certainty.

thanks for the info! good to know.

I wish there were (maybe there is) a site that lists civil and revolutionary war weapons by caliber. This would allow relic hunters to narrow their finds to a # of weapons rather quickly, assuming the bullets/balls found were from either war.

Yes, I agree that we never know for certain. however, if you also find relics from the war or time period consistently near the bullets found, this is a fairly valid way to put a time period and/or war to a bullet. Not perfect, but prob the best we have to go on.

 

[BosnMate]

The model 1858 Remington Army model didn't start large scale production until 1861. It was a supplementary issue by the Army until 1864 when the Colt factory burned.
So yes, there were other .44 caliber firearms, and they are still being made today. So the actual date of the use of lead round balls in .44 caliber firearms started around 1860 and continues up to and including today, October 2016. So those lead balls could have been dropped anytime in the last 156 years. But the patina makes one think they were dropped a long time ago. l.cutler also pointed out "A rifle in .46 to .47 caliber could have taken a ball in that size. While we would all love to know the exact provenance of our finds, you will probably never know with any certainty." Without other artifacts to date the site, what he says is absolutely true. But that would date back before the Civil War, into the 1700's. Eli Whitney (1765-1825) invented the cotton gin, and the concept of interchangeable parts. Up until guns were manufactured with interchangeable parts, each and every gun was made one at a time, and even though the British Brown Bess all looked alike, the parts would not interchange. American gun makers were building firearms, and they hand made every screw, every bolt, the barrel was made by wrapping hot iron around a mandrel and then forge welding it. The barrel was rifled by hand. Every part was hand made. So a Kentucky long rifle might be what we call a .45 caliber, (remember we are talking in 1/1000 of an inch) but that was not how the bore was measured back in that day, they didn't have a mic to measure the barrel or ball. The man that made the gun would also make a bullet mold for that particular barrel, and the caliber or bore size was measured by the number of balls to the pound of lead. In the vernacular of the day, those mountain men would say a 54 caliber Hawken would "throw a half ounce of galena." So pinning your finds down go more than you have is pretty much mission impossible.

[FONT=&quot]40 caliber: (.395) 092g—-approx 76 balls/pound[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]45 caliber: (.445) 133g—-approx 52 balls/pound[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]50 caliber: (.498) 180g—-approx 38 balls/pound[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]54 caliber: (.535) 220g—-approx 32 balls/pound


[/FONT]

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

The model 1858 Remington Army model didn't start large scale production until 1861. It was a supplementary issue by the Army until 1864 when the Colt factory burned.
So yes, there were other .44 caliber firearms, and they are still being made today. So the actual date of the use of lead round balls in .44 caliber firearms started around 1860 and continues up to and including today, October 2016. So those lead balls could have been dropped anytime in the last 156 years. But the patina makes one think they were dropped a long time ago. l.cutler also pointed out "A rifle in .46 to .47 caliber could have taken a ball in that size. While we would all love to know the exact provenance of our finds, you will probably never know with any certainty." Without other artifacts to date the site, what he says is absolutely true. But that would date back before the Civil War, into the 1700's. Eli Whitney (1765-1825) invented the cotton gin, and the concept of interchangeable parts. Up until guns were manufactured with interchangeable parts, each and every gun was made one at a time, and even though the British Brown Bess all looked alike, the parts would not interchange. American gun makers were building firearms, and they hand made every screw, every bolt, the barrel was made by wrapping hot iron around a mandrel and then forge welding it. The barrel was rifled by hand. Every part was hand made. So a Kentucky long rifle might be what we call a .45 caliber, (remember we are talking in 1/1000 of an inch) but that was not how the bore was measured back in that day, they didn't have a mic to measure the barrel or ball. The man that made the gun would also make a bullet mold for that particular barrel, and the caliber or bore size was measured by the number of balls to the pound of lead. In the vernacular of the day, those mountain men would say a 54 caliber Hawken would "throw a half ounce of galena." So pinning your finds down go more than you have is pretty much mission impossible.

40 caliber: (.395) 092g—-approx 76 balls/pound
45 caliber: (.445) 133g—-approx 52 balls/pound
50 caliber: (.498) 180g—-approx 38 balls/pound
54 caliber: (.535) 220g—-approx 32 balls/pound

thanks for the detailed, well thought out reply. agreed, we need other relics to date the site. strange, i have hit that area very hard, and have found 6 round balls, but nothing old at all, not a button, coin, anything. nothing to date the balls to the civil war EXCEPT that this area had civil war skirmishes AND the 1st civil war land battle was fought right here, battle of big bethel. the battle was only a few miles up the road, BUT the union soldiers marched from ft monroe to the battle site and could have came through here or on their way back also. these are definitely drops. but, again, i have found nothing thus far to substantiate that they are civil war. agreed, we will never know for sure.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

Not necessarily for an 1860, there were other Colt models and other brand revolvers that used the same caliber ball. There were also odd caliber rifles, many of the old rifle barrels were hand made and rifled and could have been any caliber. A rifle in .46 to .47 caliber could have taken a ball in that size. While we would all love to know the exact provenance of our finds, you will probably never know with any certainty.

agreed! one of the things about this hobby, many things you dig shall remain a mystery. BUT, the fun and skillful part of the hobby is making measurements and narrowing down what the finds ARE NOT, leaving what they COULD BE. sometimes that is all you are left with, as in this case. great hobby, always room to learn new things. thanks for the reply and helpful feedback!

 

[ivan salis]

many American rev war type pistols used by US troops were not totally standardized --often when a gunsmith made a gun he made a set of molds to cast round balls to fit the pistol ...