Hello

[Peerless67]

BTW the coin pic at the bottom of the 3 I posted, thats the "milled" Philip IV silver 2 reale dated 1628 and bearing the same design as Eddies pic is registered (as required by Aussie law) is one found from the wrecks in Austrailia.


Gary

 

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[Lucky Eddie]

did you clean the coins ?

Short answer yes - I cleaned them, I was 16 years old and didn't know any better!

I cleaned them because I thought it would be easier to identify them.

Back then I tried all manner of things - from memory I tried vinegar, also Sodium bi carbonate at one point.

Someone who cleans gold nuggets - suggested the calcretions (lime or coral or whatever it was) would come off with hydrofluoric acid - which it did - I washed them a lot to neutralize the acid and that's what the bi carb soda was for - to neutralize the hydroflouric acid (I got it from a boat yard - they clean fiberglass hulls with it to polish them up for sale).

I think I used cotton tips and mums silvo polish as well.

Like I said - it was a long time ago & I was young and didn't know better about NOT cleaning coins being the best thing to do.

Now days they say any coin cleaned has lost most of its collectible value.

I really just wanted to now if it's a dutch ship or not - and it looks like it maybe is - which means I can't keep anything off it.

If it was the coastal trader - I wanted a brass bell to hang over the bar - that was my main attraction in wanting to dive on it and find more etc.

Looks like I struck out, coz if it's older by a longways - well I'm screwed coz it all belongs to the crooks at the maritime museum now!.

Cheers

 

[Peerless67]

G'day Eddie, Whilst out shopping today a thought occured to me that all might not be lost (for you anyway)
Whilst reading through some of the links you posted and links off of those links I read an article where an aussie had located a wreck and did a deal with the Dutch for salvage (20%)

Now from reading the Aussie site I see the Aussies and the dutch have a 2/3rds 1/3rd deal.

It is not ilegal for you to dive those wrecks, so how about letting the Dutch know that you believe you have located one of their wrecks and would only give up the location if you recieved the salvaging rights.
you could possibly strike a deal with the dutch authorities for a share of their share (?) which seems to be what happened in the case I mentioned, although I have no grasp of what actually happened.

If you were able to secure such a deal I could give you the contact details of someone who worked on the oddesy recovery documentries for discovery channel. That would be a great way to have any finds witnessed and also would probably go a long way to ensuring your own preservation from any crooked types you have mentioned.

I dont know if that is possible, but food for thought. And I bet you could get the "crew" required for such a recovery right here on Tnet if you were able to secure a deal like that.

BTW, I believe that you have probably discovered a dutch 17th century wreck site.

Good Luck


Gary

 

[Peerless67]

mad4wrecks, did you delete the post you made or have the moderators been at it again ?

I don't believe they produced milled coins in the New World until 1732.

The original quote can be seen in my reply on post 31


Gary

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Hi Gary,

Thank you for that idea - I honestly hadn't thought of that angle of attack.

I'm not sure whats up right at the moment with the Dutch - other than to say somethings happening.

A colleague has recently been over to England and Holland and done some research (I suspect he's been feeding the Dutch Govt with the details I've referred to here - about the theft of so many of the coins and relics - as well as the willful destruction of early Dutch engravings such as thiose you see in the 1956 news paper artiucle I posted above (and those at the zuytdorp wreck site cliff caves).

He is the contact supplied me with much of my data and film of the trips to plunder the zuytdorf wreck.

Anyway - the Dutch have somehow got themselves a lady maritime archaeologist on the staff at the wam museum, and I suspect her role is part of the 2/3rd's 1/3rd deal signed in the Hague in 1972 with the Dutch.

I think they know full well, it's a place full of thieves and want one of their own people working on the inside to protect their interests.

Wisely I think they have insisted their contribution of the 1/3 cost of recovery, is from now on - in the form of boots on the ground manual labor with one of their own people they can trust!.

I hope to meet - this week or next with this Dutch Maritime Archaeologist about the Vergulde Draeke engravings from 1656, that are under imminent threat from a proposed new marina development.

I will sus her out, and see if she can be trusted with such information, and maybe act as a go between, with her people re this other discovery.

Who knows - I'm not giving up yet.

At the end ofthe day - I might just give up and post a google earth with GPS co ords of the wreck site and let it be a free for all.

Dealing with all the crap from our people is enough to turn anyoneoff wreck hunting for life.

They really did screw up with their retrospective legislation, in a nutshell no one trusts them......and that's been at the expense of not one of the 3 remaining dutch east Indiamen being found now in almost 40 years - not even by WAMM who get paid to look and have all the best gear and staff!

Really speaking, they are armchair academics - they spend all their time going back over the wrecks they have in their data base and writing new scientific papers to get their degrees and doctorates etc. No one in the public trusts them so - between them and the public - theres been zero reported.

I know Gavin Menzies crew believe they've found a Chinese Jumk off the NW coast of WA (I've seen their google image) Yet - he's not sharing with the WAMM!

WAMM seem to be the pariahs of the Maritime Archaeology world.

Everyone who's anyone in maritime archaeology - is keeping secrets from them it would seem.

Cheers

 

[Alexandre]

Well, as far as I know, the WAMM is one of the best underwater archaeological teams in the world. What Jeremy Green and his people have produced so far is awesome

As far as not sharing anything with anyone, then how come they are cooperating with Portugal, regarding the discovery of the Correio da Ázia, off Ningaloo reef? Between the 2 countries, we have managed to find a lot about early 19th century long range Portuguese sailing routes, ships and sailors.

Anyhow, looking again at you finds with a critical eye... you stated that you had found a "curved piece of 'hull rib' with a copper rivet thru it, bout as thick as you thumb".

As far as I know, copper fastenings in a wreck will give you a preliminary dating starting from the late 18th century onwards. Anything else, earlier than the 1780's would have wooden trunnels or irons fasteners. So, again, I pretty much doubt that you have found yourself a Dutch VOC ship... do remember that, sometimes, wrecks pile up, or happen to appear at the same "ship traps" - remember the two roman wrecks of the Grand Congloué, that sat one on top of the other, both separated by a century..

 

[Gilt Dragon Research]

Hello all,

I have just founded the Gilt Dragon Research Group (www.giltdragon.com.au)

Please contact me via the website if you have anything you would like to contribute. The fate of the survivors is a mystery and if I can, I would like to collate as many undocumented finds as possible to see if there is any recognisable pattern.

Regards

Steve

 

[BeachcomberContractor]

I am an experienced Western Australian wreck diver, including (prior to the museums act) the 1656 VOC 'Vergulde Draeck' (Gilt Dragon). I am interested in the historic implications of shipwrecks. Perhaps I could assist? I work on a not for profit basis. See http://beachcomber-contractor.weebly.com Email: [email protected]

 

[duyfken]

Zuytdorp coins

Hi,
I am a historical researcher. I am very much interested in the location of the wreck. I have nothing to do with the WAMM as I am currently investigating their the possible theft of 2 tonnes of silver and the deliberate destruction of artefacts and rock inscriptions. I am also completing a documentary which will be completed next year. (I hope). If we can meet or get in contact, I would be grateful. I am not interested in profiting from coins - only in their discovery and story associated with the discovery.

I will abide by your conditions.

Could you please contact me urgently.

Regards,

duyfken

Don - what I didn't say, is where the coins & pipes are kept. This I can't say publicly. Even tho found before our maritime legislation was enacted - ours was made "retrospective" meaning these belong to the state & I would have to hand them over for zero compensation.

For that reason, I've not made the location of the wreck known, or kept these relics (except for the photo you see) in this country.

Suffice to say they are kept overseas in a deposit box - in a nation with which our country doesn't have any extradition treaty.

I'm not planning to travel to that nation any time soon just to take more pictures to post here.

If / when that opportunity presents itself - I will endeavor to get close up photo's for you.

I've no idea how to actually do that, - as stated my water proof digital camera I spent a LOT of time just getting the photo's I have - many didn't work out because they were too close and all fuzzy as a result.

All I really wanted to know was if they looked to have come from a Dutch East India man, i.e were guilder / half guilder or spanish.

I don't speak dutch or spanish - so I was in some doubt as to just what we have here in the way of the vessel.

I did NOT for example see any cannon - which I believe is typical of such wrecks, BUT again It was just ONE dive where I found a few small relics basically on platform reef inside, where I believe the main hull lies, in deeper water on the outer edge of the reef.

I'm too old to dive these days (well 50 is not too old but my healths not good enough for me to dive these days).

It was a lot different when I was just 16 some 34 years ago, when I found this wreck.

These days I have the boat etc to be able to get there - but I don't dive any more.

I've a couple lads - who both dive - but have ZERO interest in wrecks / treasure etc. (Go figure).

I figure I won't live for ever, it would be a shame if the wreck location dies with me.

All the same - there's no way I'll hand the info to our maritime museum people for them to plunder it for personal gain - like they have so many already.

Getting stuff outta our country ain't easy for the average guy!

I've been hoping the lads would one day get interested in recovering the contents of the vessel, hopefully before any one else stumbles on it.

At the moment they seem to be interested in only girls and fast cars.... maybe they will grow up one day! Kids of today want everything "given" to them without any work - they believe that everything should be instant gratification - and you should be able to get it sitting on their but playing nintendo in their bedroom.

I grew up in a MUCH different era with much different values systems.

Cheers!

 

[duyfken]

Hoping some one more experienced than me, might have some idea what type, age, provenance, vessel I might have found here?

Found off the Coast of Western Australia.

Many thanks in advance!

Hi Eddie,

I can tell you anything that you would like to know especially if you can tell me roughly where the coins were found as I can then tell you what wreck it cam from. I would also need a few details about the coins which are in amazing condition. I am more interested in what happened to the survivors. If these were found on land, it would provide some valuable clues.

Happy to help in any way I can.

Regards,

Duyfken

 

[Lucky Eddie]

There seems to be a recent flurry of interest again in Dutch wrecks off the West Australian Coast - and more importantly land based survivors "inscriptions"... specifically those of of the Vergulde Draeke at Burns Beach environs (Lat 32 degrees south).

There's been an examination of the rock inscription carried out by the worlds most pre - eminent petroglyph scientist Dr Robert Bednarik!
Convener, CEO and Editor, International Federation of Rock Art Organisations,
and Editor and Secretary, Australian Rock Art Research Association

This is the worlds most pre-eminent rock art scientist about the 1956 inscription which the WAMM have subsequently described as an elaborate fake...(and which occupies an area proposed at the time for development of a large marina complex).

Mullaloo Beach Inscription.
The slab reported and photographed in 1956 is about 2 meters from it's previous location, and has been truncated thru the inscription by impact blows, having been struck in at least 2 places, 40 - 50 cm;s apart. The slab, at least 50cm thick in places, shows distinctive layering parallel to its upper surface, marked by color and grain characteristics. One impact point can be determined exactly from some distinctive fissures and the deeply concave fracture surface centered on it. The other is not so clearly indicated, having resulted in a second fracture facet, broadly concave, but a 10cm long part of the bruised edge central to the concavity below offers the most likely site.
In addition to this fairly conclusive evidence, there are several letters missing of the original inscription. Over over much of the area in their vicinity, the surface is slightly lighter and smoother as if it had been rubbed or hammered. Clearly bruising has effaced these letters. The sandstone layer is surprisingly well consolidated, and the average grain size of 1-2mm has determined a relief of 1-2mm (from the top of the remaining grains to the cement erosion front between the grains). The grains consist primarily of well rounded, sometimes frosted quartz grains and occasional small gastropod or coral remains. At the edge of the smoothened areas, form with the fracture facet occurs a conchoidal fracture scar of about 5cm length, and within it there are at least four distinctly fractured quartz grains, all in close vicinity. At conchoidal fracture scar of about 5 cm length and within it, there are at least four distinctly fractured quartz grains, all in close vicinity. At magnification of 80x, their edges remain quite sharp, being of wane widths of only 1 or 2 microns.
A search for fractured grains in the gropopves of the 3 remaining letters (V,E,D, of VERGILDET DRAEK 16??) locates 2 in the D, which are measured, and several more, at least 4 in the V. Non are at this stage located in the E although a more thorough search is warranted. All fractures exhibit distinctive mico-wanes, which in all cases are visible under the magnifying glass (10x). zmeasurements are made on the two grains in the letter D. Particularly the first grain, in the straight part of the groove, is eminently suitable for micro-erosion analysis. It has been truncated across it's top, paralell to the surface, so that the sub spherical grain bears a dish shaped, slightly concave and roughly circular scar. Its edge which ranges in angle from c. 90 degrees, to 110 degrees, forms a continuous wane , from which the following reliable size estimates are secured: 10,11,11,10,12,10,12,12,12,12,14,12,12,10,12 microns.
The second grain in letter D , from its bottom (right way up) is of a long edge on a grain in a sidewall of the groove that has been truncated at right angle to the surface. The edge is harder to see (the truncating vertical surface is inaccessible to to microscopic examination), but the following estimates were made of the wane: 12,11,10,10,10,12, microns.

What renders the two results particularly compelling is that the several quartz fracture edges in the letter V all exhibit similar development in their micro-wanes , all apparently in the 10 - 15 micron range. Even in the obviously moist and erosive, relatively high-pH environment of this site, such extensive wane formation cannot possibly be attributed to a time period of 60 years or so. Moreover the wane development in grains fractured, presumably in 1956 or soon thereafter, is only a fraction of that seen in the inscription. It is in th eorder of 1/10th to 1/6th of the age of the immediately adjacent inscription. It must therefore be concluded that the inscription could not possibly be of the 20th century and an age of the 19th century was also highly unlikely. The most obvious and parsimonious conclusion is that its purported age is indeed it's true age!.

Nearby in in the central part of another, somewhat larger flat slab about 5 meters away (but only 3 meters from where the first inscription was discovered in 1956), is a further marking which might be a 'P' or an incomplete 'R'. It too has grains with fractures, and because it is of the same size, groove morphology and groove dimensions, it was probably made at the same time. Although the inscriptions are badly weathered, it is obvious that they were made with steel tools, and it is apparent that the maker was well versed in making such letters in stone, or alternately took considerable care in the work.

The notion of a fake is contradicted by the location (far south of the wreck site c,80km's?) and the lack of sound motivation. A future investigation needs to focus particularly on the nature of the blackish material that evenly covers both the inscriptions grooves and the UN-damaged surrounding surfaces, and which is totally lacking on the damaged areas and the impact fractures that occurred in or after 1956. The accretionary material is most probably of organic nature, rather thin and discontinuous, but clearly separates the pre 1956, from the post 1956 surface aspects.

WAMM want to declare them all fake, but at the same time want sovereignty over them under the Maritime Shipwrecks Legislation (on land no less)?

Why?

Hello Mr Bednarik. Again our thanks for bringing the inscription to our attention.

cc Mr Saunders, Ms Wilmot, AProf Green, Dr VanDuivenvoorde. Ms Cox for filing.

As advised in my last email below, the inscription (or what remains of it) is of importance to us.
I understand that Mr Saunders has requested that you deal with Dr Wendy Van Duivenvoorde, the head of our Dutch program and a terrestrial (Classical) and maritime archaeologist. Wendy In that it carries a Dutch inscription, she will be managing the report for the Museum. She has also commenced an international search for similar shipwreck inscriptions and we are also copying to file all other known instances of non-Indigenous maritime inscriptions on our coast for comparative analysis with this new find. Any advice you may have on those we may have missed would be appreciated.

As is standard practice with all reports of wrecks and relics believed to be historic, a member of staff, in this case, Dr Van Duivenvoorde, will need visit the site, record all details and take any oral and other histories available from the finder/reporter. She will then report back to the Museum and its advisory structures recommending the best way forward in the protection, preservation, management and future examination of the inscription. Her report will be considered and decisions will be made on the way forward, including the need for further independent scientific analysis. Your background and experience in these matters is well known and in hoping you will make yourself available on the initial inspection, we look forward to it and also to receiving your assessments and recommendations. Please be reassured that subsequent to the initial inspection and the receipt of your own analyses the Museum will look to accessing all available advice, experience and expertise in this matter.

Should you be unable to take Dr VanDuivenvoorde to the site, can you advise who is best placed to do so. We also need your advice on who would be best placed to fill out a form of finding a wreck or relic believed to be historic, thereby fulfilling the finder/reporter’s obligations under the Commonwealth and State shipwrecks legislation.

Again our thanks for bringing the site to our attention.

With best wishes


​

Dr M.McCarthy
Curator of Maritime Archaeology
A/Head
Department of Maritime Archaeology
WA Museum
Fremantle
Western Australia
6160

&

Dear Dr McCarthy,

Thank you for your letter. I have indicated to Mr Saunders that this is not an issue of
maritime archaeology; what is needed is expertise in dating rock surface features, such as
petroglyphs. Retired WA Museum archaeologist Dr Charlie Dortch, for instance, would be a
good choice, but my key question is this: does the Museum have a geologist with extensive
experience in estimating the age of petroglyphs? If not, there is not much value in a collaboration.

On the other hand you are right in suggesting that rock inscriptions may be of genuine
interest to the early maritime history of WA, and for that reason may be relevant to your
Department. Which raises an interesting possibility.

There are many rock inscriptions (and one on metal) in WA that are purported to be very
early, let's say up to 1850, or even later in the more remote parts of the State. Some of
these are fakes, and I have examined examples. Some of them are authentic beyond any doubt,
and again, I have examined them. Then there are the ones whose authenticity is problematic.
It seems to me that the only way to resolve this issue is to conduct a proper survey of all of them,
reducing the three groups to just two: those that are authentic, and those that are not.
This is the only way to effectively deal with the issues of conservation:
obviously different standards would apply to these two groups. But they first need to be established.

Rock inscriptions are neither rock art, nor are they issues of maritime archaeology, but
they are of considerable relevance to both disciplines. In rock art, we need them badly for
calibrating analytical methods; in your field, they provide relevant information about
survivors. So I propose a collaborative project between the Museum and the Australian Rock Art Research Association,
under my direction. Its purpose: to review all early rock inscriptions in WA, and to secure authentication of those that are in fact authentic.
This solves our problem of securing calibration data, and it provides you with the secure data base you need.

Let me illustrate why this is important. In 1962 the WA Museum botched an impact study of the rock art at Dampier Archipelago,
after it declared there were only 200 petroglyphs.
There are in fact over a million. This mistake has caused incredible problems, the loss of
dozens of billions of dollars of development in WA (17 multinational companies withdrew).
These issues are still dragging on and any resolution, in whatever form, will be very costly
indeed: it will again cost billions.

We have the opportunity to perform better in respect of the State's historical rock
inscriptions, by doing precisely what should have been done with its rock art: a proper
inventory before the Pilbara development began. It's as simple as that. It makes good sense
to me.

Kind regards,
Robert G. Bednarik

RE: Ocean Reef inscription‏
From: Robert Bednarik ([email protected])
Sent: Thursday, 1 October 2009 3:46:59 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]
Dear Fred,

Thank you for your response. My approach was in response to the suggestion by Giz Watson that you are "very interested" in the matter, and in the hope that the WA Museum might assist the project by providing an archaeologist with relevant experience. I do not believe that this is an issue of maritime archaeology; what is needed is expertise in dating rock surface features, such as petroglyphs - not in the nature of maritime timbers. Does the Perth Museum have anyone with such expertise?

I had in mind someone like Charlie Dortch, who I understand retired in recent years, or better still, a geologist with extensive experience in estimating the age of petroglyphs.
The inscription has already been examined microscopically and quantitative data concerning its age have been secured. The archaeological aspects concern purely the excavation of the remaining fragments of the rock slab, so as to record their precise positions and relationships. This is of secondary importance. Conversely, in response to Dr McCarthy's observations, there are several rock inscriptions in WA much earlier than 1858, whose authenticity is beyond doubt (historically proven and published by your Museum), and which I have also examined. Presumably he is unaware of them also. The Ocean Reef inscription was discovered well over half a century ago and reported then. No criticism is implied, I appreciate that rock inscriptions are outside the expertise of the institution he
represents.

If the Museum lacks experience in dating rock surface modifications by scientific means we would need to search elsewhere to find a specialist capable of repeating and testing the work already done on this historical object.

Many thanks for your help, and kind regards,
Robert

&

Dear Dr. Bednarik,
Thank you for your messages regarding the rock carving affected by the Oceaan Reef development. On behalf of the WA Museum and further Dr McCarthy's e-mail, I would like to facilitate an archaeological examination of the site and assess the presence of chipped-off letters and related material. Can you please advise on the location of the inscription and your availability? After an initial assessment, we can establish a strategy on how to proceed. I will be working away from the office tomorrow and Friday, but am contactable by e-mail.

Best regards,

Wendy

><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Dr Wendy van Duivenvoorde
Department of Maritime Archaeology
Shipwreck Galleries
Western Australian Museum
47 Cliff Street
Fremantle, WA 6160
AUSTRALIA
Western Australian Museum | Western Australian Museum

Phone: +61 (0)8 9431 8435
Fax: +61 (0)8 9431 8489

Adjunct Lecturer, Archaeology
School of Social and Cultural Studies, M405
University of Western Australia
35 Stirling Highway
Crawley, WA 6009
AUSTRALIA
School of Social Sciences : School of Social Sciences : The University of Western Australia

Dear Robert,

Thank you for your email regarding the rock inscription in Ocean Reef. I have forwarded your email on to Dr Michael McCarthy, A/Head of Department, Maritime Archeology, here at the Museum. He will be looking at the matter further, and I understand he already has some knowledge of the story of the rock inscriptions. If the inscription could be proven to be made by survivors of a historic ship wrecked off the Western Australian coast, it is possible it could be protected under the Maritime Archaeology Act 1973 (WA), however, I think that is unlikely to occur in this case.

As I stated above, members of the Maritime Museum are considering the matter and may contact you should they require further assistance. Regards,

Fred Saunders.

Mr Robert G. Bednarik
Convener, CEO and Editor, International Federation of Rock Art Organisations,
and Editor and Secretary, Australian Rock Art Research Association
cc Mr Saunders, A Prof Green, Dr Van Duivenvoorde and Ms Wilmot.


Thank you for advising the Museum of the existence of the Ocean Reef
inscription via Mr Saunders the Museum’s Policy Officer.
I can advise from my own perspective and experience, that while having other inscriptions
purporting to have emanated from shipwrecked survivors are on record e.g. The
Zuytdorp 1711, the 1600 (M.I.S.) inscription at Victoria Harbour near
Esperance, the 1795 Roebuck Bay inscription and while we having on record a
number of reports of inscriptions that proved to be non-existent or actual
hoaxes (e.g. one reputedly inscribed 1630 or 1680 in the Maud Landing
Region), we had no record at all of the Vergulde Draeck 1656 Inscription.
Indeed it came as quite a surprise to me, for I would have expected all the
well-known wrecks searchers from times past e.g. Alan Robinson, Jack Sue,
Hugh Edwards and the Hendersons to have known of this or at least to have been
aware of its existence given it appeared in the local press, albeit a decade
or so before the wrecks were finally re-discovered.

Given the propensity for people to produce such things (of all those we have
on record to date only indigenous Depictions and the the Denham Herald 1858
Inscription in Shark Bay has proved unequivocally bona fide), the Museum
will of necessity be cautious in managing the Vergulde Draeck Inscription.

This is an area of great interest to us nevertheless and whether a hoax or not,
the inscription (or what remains of it) is of importance and it should be
assessed as part of the local history both ancient and (relatively ) modern.
To that end Dr Wendy Van Duivenvoorde, the head of our Dutch program and a
terrestrial (Classical) and maritime archaeologist will be in contact soon
and will arrange an inspection and report and the appropriate liaison with
relevant stakeholders.


Thank you again and best wishes.

Dr M.McCarthy
Curator of Maritime Archaeology
Acting Head.

Department of Maritime Archaeology
WA Museum
Fremantle
Western Australia
6160

Dear (Redacted) Call me Lucky Eddie!

Here is my response to WAMM. Danny would be so proud of me!

This time I sent copies not only to McCarthy's staff as he does, but also to two Greens and to Barnett.

Robert


Dear Dr McCarthy,

If there have been delays in this discussion they are attributable to avoidance of the key question: does your agency have the expertise to estimate the antiquity of rock substrate modifications? Had you admitted that it doesn't, I would not have hoped to find in your agency the ability of testing already available scientific data, and our discussion would have been shorter.

Permit me to list the facts: the Ocean Reef inscription was publicly reported over half a century ago, yet your agency has no knowledge of it. Similarly, it has no knowledge of most other early rock inscriptions in WA, be they fake or authentic, and shows no inclination of taking a sustained interest. Moreover, it appears to have no expertise in dealing with such phenomena in a scientific manner. Nevertheless, you claim that it has responsibility of such material. If it lacks both knowledge and expertise, why is it given this responsibility? Several rock inscriptions in WA have been deliberately destroyed, at least in some cases by 'official agencies'. Moreover, WA legislation for protecting immovable cultural heritage is pitiful: 99.7% of all applications made for the destruction of such monuments have been approved since 1972, and applications for protection have only been approved by the federal government, and strenuously opposed by the WA Labor government.

These are unpalatable facts, Dr McCarthy, and as the CEO of the International Federation of Rock Art Organisations, dealing with rock art protection worldwide, in every continent, and working directly with UNESCO, I can assure you that WA is historically the world's foremost state vandal of immovable cultural heritage. Believe me, this is not a lightly made or frivolous claim. Your government has sanctioned the destruction of 95,000 petroglyphs at Dampier alone; this is unheard of in the rest of the world, and dwarfs the Taliban's achievements. The Ocean Reef inscription was defaced and smashed in the 1950s.

I therefore find that your agency is unable to assist the existing project dealing with all known rock inscriptions. You lack the ability of authenticating such features, without which you cannot realistically decide what is and is not relevant to the maritime history of WA. In your own view, the authenticity of the inscription is not established, hence it is not a maritime relic - yet you are unable to authenticate it. You have nothing to offer our project.

My apologies for wasting your time.
Good bye.
Robert G. Bednarik

To Fred Saunders: although I am done with WAMM, I am still interested in the Perth Museum's position, and the same original question applies: do you have expertise in dating anthropic rock surface modifications?

You can see that even in the scientific world the WA Martime museum staff are not held at all in any high esteem!

Why do they wish to cover up the authenticity of the inscription/s proving evcidence of past Dutch settlement in Western Australia pre dating cooks landing in skidknee in 1770?

Lets not even get into why they won't acknowedge the poriort discovery by the Portuguese in the 1500's reported in books by peter trickett and the Chinese before them Gavin Menzies.

WAMM just arent looking - well if they are they are keeping it all secret until they can plunger everyuthing for themselves.

Could that be another wreck outline I see?

Maritime archaeology is a complete mess in Western Australia...

No one in their right mind has any confidence in the corrupt cabal running the joint.

There's more - but how much do people really want to know?

And whats the point?

People talk about taking it to the Crimne and Corruption Commission - but anyone who's walked that particular rice-paper trail before knows that they were only ever instituted to cover up stuff for government until after elections so it never sees the light of day in the press,, the second you contact them you are covered by their act which you will be told in a registered letter the next day, that says if you ever tell anyone including your wife, police, media, judges etc, what you have reported, you will do a 10 year stretch in jail under CCC legislation...

So your effectively gagged while they sweep all the evidence under the rug so deep no one will ever find it again... that's what they do!

The LAST thing you ever do is go to the CCC - I thought everyone already knew that.......

The Dutch know.... they have bailed on their 1972 Hague share agreement... coz they know the WA and Australian Commonwealth govt are all wreck thieves and crooks.

Heck the Gold from the Zyptdorp wreck was smelted at the Perth Mint by the Mickelberg boys and stolen from them by the corrupt WA Plods under Don "the silver fox" Hancock and singing (later swinging) Lou Lewadowski... the Mickelberg boys sent down for 20 years or so coz they double crossed their treasure hunting partners in crime, the then Commissioner of Police at the time and editor of the Western Australian Newspaper...

How were they ever going to get a fair trial?

Hence the publication of the book "The Mickelberg Stitch".

Detective Sergeant Don Hancock contacted me in 1983 about finding buried bodies.
We went out to East Perth cemetry and did some tests---he said there are 10k bodies here and only 400 headstones---find me some bodies.

Obviously we found one within minutes and I said looking at the data this looks interesting---Don shouted hold on I'm coming over and stared towards me--suddenly the ground gave way and he shouted ***&&%^--we looked around and he was upto his knees in a grave--where the coffin had rotted.

He said OK you can find boxes, but there are paupers and muslims here (no coffins) can you find those---we started surveying and eventually found quite a few coffinless burials and a mass grave containing victims from the Perth workhouse who died in a flu epidemic after WW1.

The next stage was to go out to a secret location and we signed papers of none disclosure.

We located what appeared to be 2 bodies and we left.

Don phoned a few months later and asked if we could find gold--of course we can I said.

We are hired to go on a dawn raid and drove from Wanneroo (Edgewater) to Police HQ and met the team, Don and his oppo Leweski or something and two other cars full of PC's.

They shoot away in their 5 litre commodores and we follow in our 2 litre Land Rover Safari, which for some reason my ops manager (hence the we) had

1. Filled the 100 gallon fuel tank plus reserve fuel on roof rack
2. Filled the50 gallon water tank--as though we were going bush.

The police had a 0 to 60 time of seconds and we had a 0 to 60 time of what!!!!!!--probably next Wednesday,
Consequently at every set of lights from Adelaide Tce to North Cottesloe beach the cops waited for us to arrive (we could have met them further north if they had used their common sense)
Anyhow we arrived at a Mickleburg house and are told to wait while they serve the search warrant (it's now 7am) suddenly the house front door opens and a very attractive lady in a silk dressing gown runs out pursued by a rather robust PC woman who chases the lady up and down the street and finally grabs her robe which slides off effortlessly to reveal a very nice naked view.

This is a top secret mission don't forget, but as that hulllaballoo dies down vehicles start arriving, Channel 7, Channel 9 Channel 2, and many reporters----I thought what's going on here.?

We wait and then are told they can't use us in the house so would we survey the kiddies sand pit in the garden which they had seen through aerial surveys was new.

We surveyed the sand pit and found nothing---it was getting hot and TV cameras followed us everywhere.

Towards lunchtime Don came and asked if we could see through concrete in the undercroft garage--I said yes and we went to the garage.

I got a tape out and was starting to mark the wall for the survey grid---Don said we don't need that and pointing to a spot on the wall below the house said survey here.

I ran the antenna across the spot and said we have an anomaly here that looks very conductive---a voice shouted duck! and as a I ducked a sledge hammer smashed into the wall.
I got out of the way and they eventually broke through the wall---Don asked how far in from the wall is the target and I said approx 1m---so a PC climbed into the hole and started digging and then shouted got it!.

The cameras all zoomed in over my shoulder as the PC started passing gold ingots through the hole.

They started loading the boot of a Commodore and eventually it lifted the front end off the road (Publicity stunt)

We settled down for lunch in the garden and I was chatting to the stunningly georgeous I think Channel 7 News reader (I thought hello we have the main news anchors here from all channels instead of the normal field reporters)

I casually picked at a piece of what I thought was copper wire in the garden wall brickwork pointing and this ball grew steadily and was actually gold---the cameras were there again as the ball grew.

I was told that the brothers had melted gold bullion and coated a rock which they sold to Alan Bond as a paperweight.this subterfuge had been uncovered when a Geophysicist was visiting Bondie (as we called him--we did a few jobs for him) and said that nugget is phoney---the nugget had cost Bondie $400K.

Anyhow we wound up on site and were asked to go back to Police HQ for debrief---this turned into a marathon beer call in the Clubhouse which we left in poor condition at 9pm and had blue light police motor cycle escort home as we were both very drunk and they didn't want us to get arrested for DDriving by a in their words honest copper.(It seemed to be a big happy clique centered around Don Hancock)

We had a few further jobs on Don's recommendations, but started getting sinister and threatening phone calls on a regular basis and then prowlers around the house while I was away.
Then I was suddenly sacked from my job offshore and every job I applied for was turned down--which forced us to sell up and leave the country.

I wanted to make a police series about these jobs,and many others but Aussie TV don't respond.

I would love to see copies of the Channel 7, 9 and 2 tapes of the Mickleburg raid.(Do you know anybody)

The brothers were painted as rogues to me by the police.

One was an experienced deep sea oil fields diver who apparently drowned while snorkeling for abelone.
Another was a commercial pilot who died in a crash at Jandekot airfield when taking off in a fully fueled plane (which turned out to be a con with needles fixed on full) with a team of geophysicists to do some magnetometer surveys---one of those killed (Graham Sands) was friend of mine---we had a fine time at a geophysics conference in Brisbane a few months before his death.

My nephew in Perth got married about 6 years ago to a female police officer and they came to visit on their world tour-----she told me Don Hancock was dead (murdered by a car bomb in his vehicle and that Lewan*****ski had shot himself---this scared me)

I contacted Ray M and he was quite nasty as if I framed him, but didn't want to anything that might interfere with his multi million dollar compo claim.

I am still not so sure that it was a total frame up, but I got scared by all the threats---even his mother phoned me and swore etc---who gave her my unlisted number

Cheers for now

John
apologies for typos or spelling errors, but I thought a friend I have never met deserved a response before I crack on with the mundane report writing.

The Silver melted down at Perth Mint also, and a senior Museum coordinator bought a house at Blackwall reach from then politician Doug Shave - for some then $40K... a sum he shouldn't have been able to amass on a lowly public servants salary at the time.

Rouges and thieves the lot of them, - why get involved, it's obviously a massive coverup...that starts at the very top.

From experience corrupt lawyers go on to be corrupt judges who keep their ill gotten gains with corrupt bankers and get corrupt accountants to do their corrupt tax returns, and have corrupt cops and corrupt politicians in their back pockets!

Its called the 5th estate... and it's a crime ring that operates with impunity in WA, jailing the innocent:-

Cost of innocence

It goes full circle and the reason it's called a crime ring? Coz every part of a circle is bent!.

ALL that 2 liter bottle of melt gold found at Channel 9 car park by reporter Allison fan after an anonymous tip off?

African Gold....

African gold collected by the Zyptdorf on its way past Africa 300 years before - where they traded silver Dutch guilders for African gold and ivory tusks!

How did African gold, then get stolen from the Perth Mint?

Coz the Mickelberg boys flew their plane up there to the Zuyptdorf cliffs and dived the site and didn't tell their partners in the treasure hunt, the then commissioner of Police and editor of the West Australian newspapers, that they had plundered all the gold booty first and left the silver behind for later subsequent recovery!

They smelted the golds and "legitimized it's ownership" by manufaturing the fake "Golden Hand nugget they sold to Alan Bond! hey claimed to have "found it" while "prospecting around Kalgoorlie with one a them new fangled metal detectors.... it was all in the papers at the time.

As you can see from the email I quoted above that gold was looted from them by the plods bent leader Don the Silver Fox Hancock (who was subsequently blownb up in a car bomb on his way home from the races... and one of the Mickelberg boys who got banged up for the Mint Swindle - just happened to be a sapper in the Australian Army in Vietnam trained in "explosives demolition".

Like I said a LOT of people have died in this state over this shyte....

It's gone on for what now 1956 to now 58 years or so....

It's honestly probably best left alone guys... the treasures mostly all long gone & corrupt people have gone to huge lengths to get around the maritime shipwrecks legislation smelting gold and silver etc.

If your really interested save copies of all this, coz sure as eggs, it will get deleted for some obscure reason before long.

Cheers!

 

[Lucky Eddie]

For those interested, a little more about the stolen mint gold... African gold at that!

Source: From this link;-

PoliceFramed_Micklebergs

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]On 2 December 1984, I was transferred to the Central Police Station in uniform branch and during routine patrols, I noticed that the Great West Gold exchange had moved its business premises to William Street, near the intersection of Brisbane Street, Northbridge. I again renewed my acquaintance with Mr Bryer in early 1995 and visited him occasionally during my patrols. During one such visit, I informed Mr Bryer that I was soon to commence my annual leave. Mr Bryer asked me if I could supervise his premises while he went on a business trip to Queensland where he was negotiating a business deal with a publicly listed company called Ariadne Limited. I took the opportunity to do so. On one day during the week whilst I was supervising the premises, a staff member drew my attention to a male person attending the business premises with a significant quantity of gold to sell. The staff member informed me that this same person had frequented the premises on about six previous occasions and had sold similar amounts of gold.
On each occasion this gold was in excess of 99% pure and she suspected it to be gold bullion melted down. The male person informed the staff member that he would return within a fortnight with two kilograms of gold of the same quality. I was told this person gave the name of Tony Carbone who I subsequently learned was an associate of John Asciak, Geoffrey Barlow and Brian Chambers, all of them being known drug traffickers. After Carbone left the premises, I examined the gold he had sold to the Great West Gold Exchange, and the register recording the past sales of gold so that I could note the previous times Carbone had sold gold bullion to the Great West Gold Exchange. I wrote down the times, dates, quantity of gold, the amount paid in exchange for the gold and also the assay results and amount paid by the Perth Mint to the Great West Gold Exchange. At the time when I took these notes, I asked the staff member to keep my inquiry confidential from Mr Bryer as I intended to have a covert investigation carried out to ascertain the origin of the gold. I strongly suspected that this gold might have been stolen from the Perth Mint some years previously.
I then contacted Detective Inspector William Round who was a personal friend of mine and was also the second in charge of the Task Force investigating the Perth Mint swindle. I advised Detective Inspector Round what had occurred and requested that he place Carbone under Police surveillance so that evidence could be gleaned regarding the suspected gold and the antecedent details obtained of Carbone’s movements. On the following day, I was contacted by Sergeant Peter Grant who called me from Kalgoorlie and advised me that he had just been transferred to the Gold Stealing Staff and that Detective Chief Superintendent Don Hancock had authorised him to return to Perth to conduct an investigation into the information I had supplied to Detective Inspector Round. I was extremely surprised that Hancock knew about this investigation as I had expected Round to only advise the surveillance team.
A day of so later Grant attended at my private residence and I reiterated to him the importance of confidentiality as I was investigating a client of the Great Western Gold Exchange without the proprietor’s knowledge and I needed to protect my informant. I informed Sergeant Grant that I had made arrangements with the staff member to contact me and advise me when Carbone was to return to the Great Western Gold Exchange, to sell the two kilos of gold. Some two weeks later the staff member called me at home to advise that Carbone had been in touch and stated that he would be in the following morning with the gold. I immediately contacted Sergeant Grant and asked him to alert the Police Surveillance Squad in readiness for their job.
The following morning I received a telephone call from the staff member who was very agitated. When I inquired what the problem was, she told me that Mr Bryer had said he had noticed two male persons loitering and acting very suspiciously near the premises and suspected that they were preparing to rob the Great Western Gold Exchange. She then advised him that the two ‘suspects’ might in fact be police officers conducting an investigation on my behalf. Shortly later when Carbone arrived at the premises these two persons entered the shop and identified themselves as detectives and apprehended Carbone. I understand that the two detectives back at HQ then requested to view the Register and compared the dates that Carbone had previously attended at the premises with the times, dates and details that I had already provided Sergeant Grant. I also understand that Carbone was taken away for questioning and his vehicle and premises were searched. I cannot recall if any charges were preferred against Carbone but in later discussions with Sergeant Grant, I was advised that no gold had been recovered. I am unaware if the two detectives took possession of, or if they photocopied the register but these details should be contained in the relevant police file recording this incident.
I have always considered that this investigation was purposely carried out in a deliberately incompetent manner with a view to compromise the investigation so that the truth and origin of this gold would never be established. In May 2004, Frank continued his account of bizarre police conduct in another affidavit including the extraordinary response to his allegations of corruption when he was appointed to investigate his own investigation and to report the outcome to one of the senior officers he had accused! During my police career, I was appointed as a probationary detective on 2 December 1974, and was promoted through the ranks of the Criminal Investigation Branch, where I worked for 10 years, reaching the rank of detective sergeant. Whilst in the CIB I worked in various squads including Midland C.I.B., motor squad, combined operations, dealers’ squad, drug squad, general crime squad and fraud squad. I was transferred to the uniform branch on 2nd December 1984 after being charged with a disciplinary offence. I remained in the uniform branch until May 1987 when I was transferred to the liquor and gaming branch. In December 1991, I went on sick leave after reporting alleged corrupt or improper conduct by Detective Chief Superintendent Don Hancock and Chief Superintendent Les McMillan to the head of the Police Internal Affairs Branch, Superintendent Ayton, who then instructed me to investigate my own allegations and report my findings to Chief Superintendent McMillan. I was discharged from the police service on medical grounds in April 1993 at the rank of First Class Sergeant.

[/FONT]
and more about the African Gold....

Source:-

No Cookies | Perth Now

The extraordinary case even involved more than 58kg of bullion being dumped at the Seven Network's Perth studios in 1989, shortly after Peter's release, in an apparent attempt to implicate him.It was later shown to be South African gold that was not related to the case.

Just more evidence that the Plods have been in on this theft of state owned wreck artifacts including the African Gold from the Zyptdorp wreck site smuggled out by Brian Mickelberg the older brother pilot and diver...later killed in a mysterious plane crash from Jandakot airport....

The film I have shows all these various mickelberg Police Commissioner and West Australian newspapers Editor building the airstrip and Brioan Mickleberg flying a light single wing Oster plane into the newly constructed air strip at the zyptdorp cliffs.

It shows the then commish of Police and editor and SAS troops blowing up the cliffs with dynamite to recover silver coins lost be the crew when abandoning the ship... via the masts and up onto the cliff faces.

There is too much info - too many links between corrupt police and media dn terh Mickelbergs and Stolen Perth Mint Gold, that turns out to be African in source and can only have come from the Zyptdorp wreck via Brian Mickelberg the Pilot diver later myseriously killed in the described plane crash.

Quite a few people know the basics of this case enough to know that all authorities connected with the case in WA are thoroughly corrupt and involved up to the eyeballs.

The number of people dead from all this lies, decepit, corruption, and theft of state owned relics,... the Dutch paid 1/3 rd of all recovery costs uunder the 1972 Haugue agrrement and yet were duped out of most of the booty... all stolen by those responsible for its protection...

Cross and double cross, murder, innocents convicted... retrospective legislation, etc etc etc....

This is a story with all the hjallmarks of a treasure mystery.. and yet people do know what went on and who was involved... but many of them are mysteriously dead now!.

Where did Don the Silver Fox Hancock get his $$$$ to buy the Orabanda pub later blown up with explosives (I did mention one of the younger Mickelberg boys was a sapper in vietnam didn't I & that all 3 were incarcerated for double crossing ther police anmd media treasure hunting partners... and that one of them died in amysterious plane crash... any wonder that the Silver Fox was blown up...

Did the Silver fox shoot Billy Grierson?

Did the Bikies blow up his pub or did one iof the ex vietman sappers, of the mickelberg boys, get even the only way they knew how?

Kaboom - that's what happens if you know too much about this stuff...

Too many already dead - too many involved in official corruption.

Best left well enough alone...

As Marie Antionette was want to say - "the trick to suiccess is keeping your head while those around yopu are busy losing theirs"!

The trick is to know when to quit!

Cheers

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hello all, I have just founded the Gilt Dragon Research Group (Gilt Dragon Research Group - Shipwreck, Perth, Western Australia) Please contact me via the website if you have anything you would like to contribute. The fate of the survivors is a mystery and if I can, I would like to collate as many undocumented finds as possible to see if there is any recognisable pattern. Regards Steve

Hi Steve Great to see you on Tnet . I sent you emails regarding the Spanish Cobs on the Guilt Dragon Cheers , Ossy Sam

 

[Lucky Eddie]

More grist to the mill...

What happened to Don Hancock... the corrupt CIB detective in charge after he retired with strangel;y enough - a lot of gold - his own pub and gold mine no less- how else do you "legitimize" all the gold he and his helpers at WAPOL stole from the Mickleberg boys as described in the above email contents?

Four Corners - 10/08/2009: Program Transcript

Slowly it all comes together - looted wrecks, historic inscriptions expunged, cliffs dynamited for silver coins, people murdered.

Thats what happens when the Police Commissioner and Newspaper editor joined forces with the Mickelbergs to hunt sunken treasure and then the Maritime Museum had retrospective legislation enacted to make any booty theirs.

So murders and schemes to make fake nuggets, and gold mines and Hotels etc all as means to legitimise the African Gold from the Zyptdorf that Legally belongs to all of us as taxpayers.... but that has been looted all along the way.

 

[Jake Kahill]

Zuytdorp coins

Hi,
I am a historical researcher. I am very much interested in the location of the wreck. I have nothing to do with the WAMM as I am currently investigating their the possible theft of 2 tonnes of silver and the deliberate destruction of artefacts and rock inscriptions. I am also completing a documentary which will be completed next year. (I hope). If we can meet or get in contact, I would be grateful. I am not interested in profiting from coins - only in their discovery and story associated with the discovery.

I will abide by your conditions.

Could you please contact me urgently.

Regards,

duyfken

As an ex Police Officer and teenager in the 80's (no fan of Hancock and corrupt detectives), I was fascinated on your views on this subject.

 

[sphillips]

One of the most fascinating stories I have read in the Shipwreck forum