Hanging Cross / Symbolism??

[mojjax]

This is a hanging Cross / candle holder thing . It is made of cast iron . I'm wondering about the symbolism ? Any Ideas ? Thanks !

 

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[DCMatt]

Found this while researching something else.

http://www.cathyhfrancisfoundation.org/2007_Antique_Auction/IMG_1643.jpg

Antique dealer says it is a knight with sword holding the head of his victim. I don't think she know who/what it is either...

But clearly it is the same character as the item in this thread.

DCMatt

 

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[Ramitt]

That one is clearly holding a scimitar.

 

[ivan salis]

the dual headed eagle was used as royal symbols by the austrain hungry empire and also the russians --- also the masons used the symbol --- it appears to me to be the head of john the baptist being held by another (his killer) -- before the knights templer were expelled by the catholic church due to false charges put forth by the french king aka "phillip the fair" (fair headed not a fair person) by a pope phillip helped get elected (so he could get him to get revenge on the knights templer--- who had refused to "loan" him money from their treasury -- due to the fact he used his royal status to not pay his debts and and had accused past folks that had loaned him of treason --if they ask for repayment and had them killed --and declared that as punishment all their money , lands and goods were forfiet to the crown ) -- the pope said they were evil and declared them enemies of god to be put to the sword (the church stole the fundsthat the templers had on account making it rich over night --- the king took all the lands in france and whatever else he could find -- they both wanted the templers main treasury which some say held two main holy relics (the holy grail and the lance that pierced christ side) as well as vast sums of money (that they did not get* the templers managed to spirit it away and hid it (the men put in chage of swore a holy oath to die rather than allow it to fall into the unholy hands of these men)-- enraged that he did not get their treasury the king sent out asssains to murder all the templers he could find * he told the killers to torture them and track down their treasury --some survived --and then developed a system fancy greetings and hand shakes and questions and answers as a code to know one another as a means of safety.

 

[Smithbrown]

The Knights Templars and the Knights of St John were two completely difference chivalric orders. The Knights of St John were the rivals of the Templars and ultimately benefited from their demise, taking over a mumber of their properties.

The figure in DCMatt's website definitely has a halo, suggesting the figure is a saint rather than an executioner

Smithbrown

 

[ivan salis]

smith brown correct opps -- hospitalers = knights of st john* my goof --corrected it

it being the head of john the baptist was the figure in mojaxx original item. is what I was trying to get across to others .

a masonic type item -- john the baptist head being held by his killer and the masonic eagles dangling on the cross from the other 3 spots --looks like one id missing at the bottom maybe?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Found this while researching something else.

http://www.cathyhfrancisfoundation.org/2007_Antique_Auction/IMG_1643.jpg

Antique dealer says it is a knight with sword holding the head of his victim. I don't think she know who/what it is either...

But clearly it is the same character as the item in this thread.

DCMatt

WTG Matt. I think its the same guy. I copied it here for you.

 

[vibes]

the character's name?

Yeah, a pissy knight, I can see that....but Herod? I dunno, as we have yet to authenticate this icon.
And why do I say not Herod? he was too weak w. sickness due to gangrene of the penis. Ok, maybe i'd lop off a head or 2 because of, or in spite of that infliction.

But cmon, Really now, who would want THAT as a swinging in the wind candle religious symbol?

 

[ivan salis]

it was a tribute to john the baptist faith --he was loyal to god unto his death -- he died rather than betray his faith -- as a mason it would be a constant remember of the faith of old.

 

[dex378]

the character's name?

Yeah, a pissy knight, I can see that....but Herod? I dunno, as we have yet to authenticate this icon.
And why do I say not Herod? he was too weak w. sickness due to gangrene of the --deleted--. Ok, maybe i'd lop off a head or 2 because of, or in spite of that infliction.

But cmon, Really now, who would want THAT as a swinging in the wind candle religious symbol?

Well historically Herod was almost always depicted as the beheader of John the Baptist, because he ordered it. If that is who it is in this scenario it would be a tribute to the Loyalty of John the Baptist to God, not a tribute to Herod ( which is kind of obvious, don't you think?) Why would someone even think it would be a tribute to Herod?

The bottom collage pretty much covers it , from the "wagon wheel" like torture device in the upper right , to the many soldiers of Herod's wielding the scimitars.

 

[ivan salis]

I think he means the man with the sword is herrod ( or his soldier that he order to do it) not that its praise himor the soldier -- john the baptist is worthy of honor not herrod or the soldier killer of john the baptist--the figure shown is in effect "herrod" or his soldier he ordered to do it with johns head in hand --symbolism means be loyal to god unto the death like john the baptist was -- something that masons would admire in a saint.

 

[mojjax]

I forgot to mark this Solved Finally did it .

 

[High Plains Digger]

Just wanted to add a bit here: The guy that Big CY put up is dressed in armour from about 1000-1200's or so. You can see the chain link, and he has a jacket that goes over it. The jacket is to keep it from getting too hot (yes, it does get hot in England) and also is decorateable with his heraldry. You wanted your friends to know you were still kicking, and you wanted your enemies to know you were worth capturing for ransom, instead of killing. Perhaps the English guys can help on this. But this is absolutely armour prior to the plate armour of the late 1300's. Does that change anything?

 

[drogerson]

Byzantine Hanging Cross

This cross includes considerable symbolism. Other replies are purely speculative. The following is also speculative, but based on long study of Catholic Christian symbolism.
- Saint John the Baptist is at top. He was beheaded and his head presented on a plate. Signifies Baptism of water and the blood of martyrs.
- 2 double-headed eagles. Symbol of the Byzantine empire. One head looking west to Rome the other east to Byzantium (Constantinople)
- On the sides are candle holders recognizing Christ our light.
- Double hooks (fish tails). Christianity embraced the fish symbol as a monogram for Christ and by extension, Christians.
- Sun Wheels. Christianization of a pagan symbol marking the seasons / festivals. Jesus, as ‘Light of Christ’ is sometimes depicted as the sun.

Many elements of this cross were also found in hanging oil and candle holders. This originated as a simpler form without John the Baptist (or sometimes St. Demetrius in military gear) and the double headed eagle. Elements continued to be added. Early forms were usually in bronze or iron and displayed crisp ornamentation. Over time they devolved and were more crudely mass produced for the tourist market in little more than pot metal.

Dave

 

[mojjax]

A friend of mine has this one .