HAMPTON COURT - capitana of Ubilla or Echeverz?

barney

barney

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Oct 5, 2006
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OK, here is an easy one. Most sources state the former HAMPTON COURT was Echeverz's capitana (NUESTRA SEÑORA DE CARMEN Y SAN ANTONIO), though I have seen some state it was Ubilla's (NUESTRA SEÑORA DE LA REGALA, SAN DIMAS Y SAN FRANCISCO SAN XAVIER). Which is it?

The H.M.S HAMPTON COURT was captured in May 1707 by a French fleet led by René Duguay-Trouin and Chevalier de Forbin off Beachy Head on the south coast of England, eventually being acquired by the Spanish crown in 1712, so I guess it could have been acquired by either individual?

Thanks,
Mike
 

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Mike: This is from the Mel Fisher website. This paragraph seems to speak rather definitively about who the Hampton Court belonged to. I would love to see the actual archival document that this was pulled from. Like you, everything else that I have seen said the Hampton Court was Echeverz's capitana.

Leading the convoy was the Hampton Court. She had been captured from the English during the war, and having been refitted at Greenwich shortly before her loss, was in excellent trim, rather easier in the water than the Spanish ships and possessed of a reasonable turn of speed. Ubilla, as senior flag officer, had chosen her as his flagship. Just over 150 feet long. She carried 80 cannon and no bulky cargo – just treasure. Nevertheless, her all-up weight topped 1,000 tons. Echeverz brought up the rear in his massive war galleon, the Nuestra Senora de Carmen y San Antonio. Ubilla and Echeverz had therefore the front and the rear of the convoy in their charge, and each of them being careful men, had their personal storeship stationed next to them in the line. Ubilla, according to his pilot, spent more time signaling his one personal charge, the Nuestra Senora de la Regla, than he did the rest of the fleet.

http://www.melfisher.com/SalvageOperations/1715Ops/1715history.asp

Tom
ps. Ubilla had good reason for signaling his personal charge...it was loaded with treasure!
 

Hi Tom-
Thanks for the info. However, that is even more confusing as I thought Ubilla was onboard his capitana REGALA (or is it really spelled REGLA)? So he wouldn't be signaling a ship he was on? Or was he on a different ship (perhaps his almiranta SAN ROMAN), which would make more sense if he indeed was signaling the REGALA/REGLA?
Thanks again.
Cheers,
Mike




mad4wrecks said:
Mike: This is from the Mel Fisher website. This paragraph seems to speak rather definitively about who the Hampton Court belonged to. I would love to see the actual archival document that this was pulled from. Like you, everything else that I have seen said the Hampton Court was Echeverz's capitana.

Leading the convoy was the Hampton Court. She had been captured from the English during the war, and having been refitted at Greenwich shortly before her loss, was in excellent trim, rather easier in the water than the Spanish ships and possessed of a reasonable turn of speed. Ubilla, as senior flag officer, had chosen her as his flagship. Just over 150 feet long. She carried 80 cannon and no bulky cargo – just treasure. Nevertheless, her all-up weight topped 1,000 tons. Echeverz brought up the rear in his massive war galleon, the Nuestra Senora de Carmen y San Antonio. Ubilla and Echeverz had therefore the front and the rear of the convoy in their charge, and each of them being careful men, had their personal storeship stationed next to them in the line. Ubilla, according to his pilot, spent more time signaling his one personal charge, the Nuestra Senora de la Regla, than he did the rest of the fleet.

http://www.melfisher.com/SalvageOperations/1715Ops/1715history.asp

Tom
ps. Ubilla had good reason for signaling his personal charge...it was loaded with treasure!
Click to expand...
 

An Admirals ship had the duty to guard the rear of the fleet. Flagship in the front, Admiral's ship at the back, everything else in between. I have seen debris I believe from the Flagship and it fits the description of the ship being torn into shreds. So pay close attention to the wrecks being salvaged that have a high number of cannons as that could very well tell us the beginning and back of each fleet.

itmaiden




barney said:
Hi Tom-
Thanks for the info. However, that is even more confusing as I thought Ubilla was onboard his capitana REGALA (or is it really spelled REGLA)? So he wouldn't be signaling a ship he was on? Or was he on a different ship (perhaps his almiranta SAN ROMAN), which would make more sense if he indeed was signaling the REGALA/REGLA?
Thanks again.
Cheers,
Mike




mad4wrecks said:
Mike: This is from the Mel Fisher website. This paragraph seems to speak rather definitively about who the Hampton Court belonged to. I would love to see the actual archival document that this was pulled from. Like you, everything else that I have seen said the Hampton Court was Echeverz's capitana.

Leading the convoy was the Hampton Court. She had been captured from the English during the war, and having been refitted at Greenwich shortly before her loss, was in excellent trim, rather easier in the water than the Spanish ships and possessed of a reasonable turn of speed. Ubilla, as senior flag officer, had chosen her as his flagship. Just over 150 feet long. She carried 80 cannon and no bulky cargo – just treasure. Nevertheless, her all-up weight topped 1,000 tons. Echeverz brought up the rear in his massive war galleon, the Nuestra Senora de Carmen y San Antonio. Ubilla and Echeverz had therefore the front and the rear of the convoy in their charge, and each of them being careful men, had their personal storeship stationed next to them in the line. Ubilla, according to his pilot, spent more time signaling his one personal charge, the Nuestra Senora de la Regla, than he did the rest of the fleet.

http://www.melfisher.com/SalvageOperations/1715Ops/1715history.asp

Tom
ps. Ubilla had good reason for signaling his personal charge...it was loaded with treasure!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 

The personal ship that Ubilla bought in Havana (from Echeverz), he supposedly renamed the Nuestra Senora de La Regla-the same name as his capitana. I have also seen it referred to as the Maria Galante, but I am not sure where that name derived from. I think Weller first used that name in reference to Ubilla's personal ship, and most of his research came from Haskins. However, I have never seen that name in the Haskins documents that I have. It was a small frigate but archival documents refer to it as both a frigate and a patache. Confusing eh?
 

I was wondering if that's what you were referring to. I have read the balandrita/fragatilla/patache MARIA GALANTE (potentially later SAN MIGUEL DE EXCELSIS following her capture in 1714, then REGALA following Ubilla's purchase of her in 1715 -- I think) was only carrying tobacco, but I guess there is speculation she was carrying treasure? I think Weller mentioned the "Cannon Wreck" may be the MARIA GALANTE, yes?

BTW, does the archival information spell the vessel(s) REGALA or REGLA, the latter I suppose meaning "Our Lady of the Rule"?

Thanks,
Mike



mad4wrecks said:
The personal ship that Ubilla bought in Havana (from Echeverz), he supposedly renamed the Nuestra Senora de La Regla-the same name as his capitana. I have also seen it referred to as the Maria Galante, but I am not sure where that name derived from. I think Weller first used that name in reference to Ubilla's personal ship, and most of his research came from Haskins. However, I have never seen that name in the Haskins documents that I have. It was a small frigate but archival documents refer to it as both a frigate and a patache. Confusing eh?
Click to expand...
 

Confusing because of inaccurate historical documentation or confusing for the pirates/corsairs, or maybe to confuse their own government ? I've been reading the strict standards of rule/law the Spanish imposed on the treasure vessels and those who sailed them. Incredible. The authorities would only "allow" the designated amount of treasure to be brought back, and the sailors were not allowed to "obtain" any gold, silver, etc for themselves. Now I am thinking, here is this huge whole continent with megatons of gold/silver/gems etc available virtually free for the taking, and someone from way over in Spain is going to tell me I cannot help myself to any of it laying around ? Oh gee whiz how ridiculous. So we all have to speculate how much treasure is hidden and buried on the routes between South America/Mexico and Spain ? Yep, think we land treasure hunters have a lot of MDing to do out here.

Now I do wonder how many detours there were along the Eastern European coast. The Azores and Canaries were common stops along the way as well as Lisbon/Portugal.

Supposedly, Ubilla kind of "disappeared" for 1 1/2 years and that was part of the reason the fleet was delayed getting back to Spain ? Anyone know more on that ?

itmaiden





mad4wrecks said:
The personal ship that Ubilla bought in Havana (from Echeverz), he supposedly renamed the Nuestra Senora de La Regla-the same name as his capitana. I have also seen it referred to as the Maria Galante, but I am not sure where that name derived from. I think Weller first used that name in reference to Ubilla's personal ship, and most of his research came from Haskins. However, I have never seen that name in the Haskins documents that I have. It was a small frigate but archival documents refer to it as both a frigate and a patache. Confusing eh?
Click to expand...
 

Senhorah de le Regla de Reyes". Book I read said it meant "Our Lady On Her Minstrel Cycle". 'The Woman With Kooties'.
From Robert Weller's book I quoted from. Why would anyone Name a Ship that way? All I could muster is these three towns that are no longer in existence, "Kotex",Texas., "Kootie", Ohio., and "Rhubarb", Georgia. A practical application for a similar Name would be, "Two Turtle Doves and Frankincense". :help: :angel7:

:
barney said:
I was wondering if that's what you were referring to. I have read the balandrita/fragatilla/patache MARIA GALANTE (potentially later SAN MIGUEL DE EXCELSIS following her capture in 1714, then REGALA following Ubilla's purchase of her in 1715 -- I think) was only carrying tobacco, but I guess there is speculation she was carrying treasure? I think Weller mentioned the "Cannon Wreck" may be the MARIA GALANTE, yes?

BTW, does the archival information spell the vessel(s) REGALA or REGLA, the latter I suppose meaning "Our Lady of the Rule"?
Click to expand...
 

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