Had to end it with the New 49,s mining club

[et1955]

I don't know what their problem is, are they scamming us, this year I became a lifetime member and paid the down payment as they required and expected that every month they would charge my account for what was due. It was misleading for a few months later I get a notice that I owe money. Apparently I was supposed to send a check to them every month, I was never notified of that but the main problem is that is if you are an associate member you can pay online but a lifetime member can't.

 

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[Tesorodeoro]

Ever wonder what got the Karuks riled up? It might be their nature but that's not really enough to explain the series of events that led to their suit.

I've heard from several sources that drunk, nude, swearing miners on dredges were trying to disrupt a Karuk dip net ceremony, after being asked to pause their mining for the duration of the ceremony. This was after the miners had unsuccessfully petitioned the DFG to prohibit the Karuk ceremony.

Perhaps the aggressive and offensive actions of the miners prompted the Karuk to start their action? I've also heard from those sources that the miners involved were founders and members of the same club being discussed in this thread.

That's not all hearsay, you can see the ongoing battle between this club and the Karuk in the many efforts by both parties to get the government involved in their disputes for nearly a decade before the Karuk brought suit.

I'd like to think the dredge moratorium was based on facts or science but it's obvious at this point in time there were no science or facts involved in the decision.

In my experience being personally offensive and obstructive when in a dispute with others actually reduces the chances of reaching a reasonable accommodation of each sides concerns and redirects the dispute away from finding common ground and instead creates a personal desire to retaliate.

I'm not blaming miners for the dredge ban. I'm also not blaming the Karuk. The dispute on the Klamath was very poorly handled by both sides and in part provided the impetus to get the public involved in picking sides in the dispute, which was characterized as a battle between nature and dredge mining. You know the rest of the story.

Heavy Pans

Nope. I know what it was. It was the conquest of their people and land during the Gold Rush era. In my opinion, they have just learned a successful modern battle technique from the environmental activist groups (which actually partially fund the tribe). What better way to discourage non-natives from living along the mid Klamath? End the logging and mining. Not much else but dope, tourism and government employment keeping people there. I also heard of all the campground toilets and port-a-potties along the Salmon river having the seats wiped down with poison oak as well. There are likely many sides to the story. Either way, it sounds like the New 49’ers club is losing its power to draw non-natives to the river country. Another win for the tribe.

 

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[Tesorodeoro]

All of the mining clubs were involved for decades before the Karuks came into view and became a nationally recognized tribe. A few of the Karuks were illegally growing dope all over the area and Miners were always coming across their dope fields on their legal mining claims and they wanted us Miners forced out... Unfortunately, this is all old news, legal dredging is dead in that useless state and has been for over 10 years thanks to that useless governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, all talk, no balls... nothings changed...

True, there was the Salmon River Miner’s Association going way back before 1979. There were not “club claims” as far as I know. They would meet on a regular basis (likely to socialize mostly). The conflict between the tribe and well….. everyone else goes all the way back to when everyone else got here.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

I’m diverging from point of the initial post.

I’m really curious if there was actual man to man (or woman) dialog about this apparent misunderstanding about how monthly dues were supposed to be paid or if it was just a letter that riled some feathers. The initial post makes it sound as if the miner is upset to receive a bill for back payments that were never paid. Online or not, there certainly should be some expectation on the 49’ers part that there would be additional money forthcoming in some manner. The miner has some responsibility to track their bill pay methods and see that things are getting deducted properly (as with any payment arrangement).

 

[et1955]

I’m diverging from point of the initial post.

I’m really curious if there was actual man to man (or woman) dialog about this apparent misunderstanding about how monthly dues were supposed to be paid or if it was just a letter that riled some feathers. The initial post makes it sound as if the miner is upset to receive a bill for back payments that were never paid. Online or not, there certainly should be some expectation on the 49’ers part that there would be additional money forthcoming in some manner. The miner has some responsibility to track their bill pay methods and see that things are getting deducted properly (as with any payment arrangeme my part by previous experiance with this club.

This is off of the topic here of this thread, however I would ask you one question.

If the definitions of words and terms don't matter then why is there a number of "Mining Cases" that the outcome was determined by just a word or maybe some terms?

I'm talking Supreme or high Court Cases here for all to read. This will clue you to the context issue or topic in

I don't see any mention of the installment plan's payments being autopay.
Being the down payment is charged , does not assure autopay follows.
A participant would need to authorize it or contention can be directed at whoever deducts from the/a creditcard.

I agree it's not overly clear as to how you pay installments. The first month no charge followed after the down payment , would be a red flag.

[Please enroll me as a Full Member of THE NEW 49’ers under the extended payment plan. I understand my credit card will be charged for my non-refundable down payment of $200 and that my balance of $2,300 will be paid in monthly payments of $22.50 or more until fully paid. **]

No mention of how the balance payments will be paid ? It should be made clear don't you think.

 

[releventchair]

No mention of how the balance payments will be paid ? It should be made clear don't you think.

Me , think? Hmmm.

I'm not involved in the club or trying to gain a lifetime membership by installments to know of the process enough to think without knowing the details.
For example , after recieving the down payment are potential members sent any more info?
Intervals of payments (beyond once a month) . Prepay options on payments /multiple months payments allowed?
Late fees in the event of a delayed payment?

Thinking as a club treasurer (which I am not) , about the second time someone complained they didn't understand they had to send a payment each month AND that it was not an auto pay from the same credit card they made the down payment...I would propose (make a motion) at a meeting that clarity be sought in the terms.

The club could have had multiple cards not accept later charges at one time in an auto pay arrangement. (Cancelled cards , cards beyond limits ect.) for all I know.
Or could simply not like the terms on thier end by charging cards in higher frequently. Or had potential members the majority of which shun using credit cards frequently , if at all.

I agree you didn't understand the terms.
Not sure your options but I'd let the club know your snafu for future reference and clarity to not repeat the same confusion.
While suspecting others made the same mistake.

IF I was thinking from a clubs perspective I'd flag your case.
Confirm your down payment , and instruct you to make monthly payments in a timely fashion, while I'm poised to terminate your process if you are late again.
But that's me. I'll take your money. The club may not see it that way.
Some , I can't say all clubs will let you plead a case before the board at a board meeting. The right board member can present your plea through a letter of your writing.
If you're honest , it's kind of hard to boot you for mistaking terms.
And could smooth the way going forward for others with ( your , thier,) same interpretation of how payments are to be made.

IF the club has another reason for how it handles payments , or complaint of how terms read ; I'm not able to explain why , not being involved to know. I think.

 

[russau]

If looking to blame someone..........Blame the wacoeviromentalistterrioristss and the green lawyers that found a cash cow in this ! These wacos sue the gubermint and the greenies are the ones that get paid and they them invest that $$$$$$$$ in condos in Florida ! Chew on that for a min.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Me , think? Hmmm.

I'm not involved in the club or trying to gain a lifetime membership by installments to know of the process enough to think without knowing the details.
For example , after recieving the down payment are potential members sent any more info?
Intervals of payments (beyond once a month) . Prepay options on payments /multiple months payments allowed?
Late fees in the event of a delayed payment?

Thinking as a club treasurer (which I am not) , about the second time someone complained they didn't understand they had to send a payment each month AND that it was not an auto pay from the same credit card they made the down payment...I would propose (make a motion) at a meeting that clarity be sought in the terms.

The club could have had multiple cards not accept later charges at one time in an auto pay arrangement. (Cancelled cards , cards beyond limits ect.) for all I know.
Or could simply not like the terms on thier end by charging cards in higher frequently. Or had potential members the majority of which shun using credit cards frequently , if at all.

I agree you didn't understand the terms.
Not sure your options but I'd let the club know your snafu for future reference and clarity to not repeat the same confusion.
While suspecting others made the same mistake.

IF I was thinking from a clubs perspective I'd flag your case.
Confirm your down payment , and instruct you to make monthly payments in a timely fashion, while I'm poised to terminate your process if you are late again.
But that's me. I'll take your money. The club may not see it that way.
Some , I can't say all clubs will let you plead a case before the board at a board meeting. The right board member can present your plea through a letter of your writing.
If you're honest , it's kind of hard to boot you for mistaking terms.
And could smooth the way going forward for others with ( your , thier,) same interpretation of how payments are to be made.

IF the club has another reason for how it handles payments , or complaint of how terms read ; I'm not able to explain why , not being involved to know. I think.

Good points based on lifetime of experience I suspect.

Thus my question if there was direct dialog between the parties after the offending letter was received. It doesn’t sound like there was any dialog which pretty much eliminates any compromise or understanding by either party.

I’d at least pick up the phone and let them know the situation and what your understanding was. I’d admit partial fault and ask for forgiveness and request the ability to resume monthly payments going forward. But that’s just me. I suspect they would be open to compromise.

I agree the payment terms should be clearly defined. Something like “Monthly payments will only be accepted by cash or check at the following mailing address”

Sounds like both parties could have done better thus making the situation ripe for a compromise.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Per their website.
“There is also a payment plan in which you can pay $200 in advance and $22.50 a month until paid in full. On the payment plan, there is also a 25% discount on full payment of your remaining balance at any time.”
(Emphasis Mine)
“Our office can arrange to set up an automatic draw from your credit card or bank account to make your monthly payments. In this case, it is necessary to sign an authorization form.”

“COMMITMENT: On the payment program, you can drop out any time you like. There is no contract binding you to continue payment if The New 49’ers is not for you. If you elect to drop out, simply send in your membership card along with a note to that effect, and your active membership will terminate as of that date. We suggest, rather than drop out, that you sell or even give your membership to someone else who can benefit from the membership credit you have accumulated.”
(Emphasis Mine)
“Our policy is to drop members who are beyond three months overdue on membership payments if we have not received communication about their plans to bring their payments up to date.

Members must have membership payments up to date in order to actively mine on New 49’er properties.”

This leads me to believe they are willing to work with people on the payments.

“OTHER TRADES POSSIBLE: On occasion, someone has something or provides some other service which the our organization can make use of to expand or improve our service to members. Sometimes we trade membership credit in exchange for those goods or services. For example, by trading, we obtained some of our office equipment, some sign painting, a boat and motor and some bulldozing in our campgrounds. If you feel you have something that might be of good service or value to our organization, please let us know.”

Again this leads me to believe they are flexible and willing to work things out.

The New 49’ers
27 Davis Road / P.O. Box 47
Happy Camp, CA 96039
(530) 493-2012

 

[Tesorodeoro]

With that information I posted previously it looks like Ed should have known the terms…however I see a problem with their website which leads me to see how there could be a misunderstanding.

If you click the link “Join” it takes you to a payment page. Doesn’t say anything about how the monthly payments could be paid.

However if you click on “Information About Club” -> “Types of Memberships” it IS pretty clear. These two pages need to be merged so all the payment information is all in one spot and it should be clarified if cash or check is accepted at their mailing address.

I’d suggest calling them and respectfully trying to work it out. Say propose $45 payments for three months, then $22.50 thereafter? Seems reasonable to me. This is obviously a problem caused by lack of communication.

 

[gold tramp]

All the hoorah I'm glad I never joined a gold club, much easier to go out look for myself make some friends with local claim owners, do assessment work for them. In exchange for some digging rights..
Gt....

 

[Tesorodeoro]

All the hoorah I'm glad I never joined a gold club, much easier to go out look for myself make some friends with local claim owners, do assessment work for them.
Gt....

Gold clubs can be monthly card games and annual shindigs for the family. Doesn’t have to be shared claims. But I’m on the same page. Never had much interest in playing around on a claim that is continually worked by many people. Perhaps being able to participate in a larger mining operation would be interesting. I think for many, it’s just a known camping area on the river with the ability to dink around without having to maintain a claim.

 

[et1955]

View attachment 1999288With that information I posted previously it looks like Ed should have known the terms…however I see a problem with their website which leads me to see how there could be a misunderstanding.

If you click the link “Join” it takes you to a payment page. Doesn’t say anything about how the monthly payments could be paid.

However if you click on “Information About Club” -> “Types of Memberships” it IS pretty clear. These two pages need to be merged so all the payment information is all in one spot and it should be clarified if cash or check is accepted at their mailing address.

I’d suggest calling them and respectfully trying to work it out. Say propose $45 payments for three months, then $22.50 thereafter? Seems reasonable to me. This is obviously a problem caused by lack of communication.

Called 2 times no answer

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Called 2 times no answer

They are probably on vacation like some of the rest of us. I kind of wonder if they ever staff their office everyday during the winter (especially with business changes due to COVID). The tribe and much of the other folks in HC are more serious than the rest of the county about COVID precautions. Bout all you can do is leave a message with your number.

 

[Reed Lukens]

There's so much more to the Karuk's part in it, they had no land of their own before this, they were recognized but so few of them were left. So they agreed to be recognized with no land by their own treaty with the government. Then some of them banded together to try and take the Klamath National forest because they wanted a casino... The Klamath isn't where they originally were located... The original grab was to build the Casino... The next thing you know, they were registering people as Karuks by the hundreds just to gain power... and it goes on and on...
Remember this? -

 

[Tesorodeoro]

There's so much more to the Karuk's part in it, they had no land of their own before this, they were recognized but so few of them were left. So they agreed to be recognized with no land by their own treaty with the government. Then some of them banded together to try and take the Klamath National forest because they wanted a casino... The Klamath isn't where they originally were located... The original grab was to build the Casino... The next thing you know, they were registering people as Karuks by the hundreds just to gain power... and it goes on and on...
Remember this? -

Reed, you have me confused..the Karuk tribe has existed on the mid Klamath river forever. Where are you saying they came from originally? They are expanding their ancestral territory mapping every decade. Now they claim the entire Salmon River drainage despite historical records stating the contrary. Their casino is located in the ancestral territory of the Shasta tribe. Are you confusing the Karuks with the Alturas Rancheria “tribe” that tried building a casino in Siskiyou?

 

[Vance in AK]

Reed, what does the engraving on the sluice say? Not clear enough for my eyes other than "49ers"

 

[Assembler]

Reed, you have me confused..the Karuk tribe has existed on the mid Klamath river forever. Where are you saying they came from originally? They are expanding their ancestral territory mapping every decade. Now they claim the entire Salmon River drainage despite historical records stating the contrary. Their casino is located in the ancestral territory of the Shasta tribe. Are you confusing the Karuks with the Alturas Rancheria “tribe” that tried building a casino in Siskiyou?

You point out that the Karuk tribe is claiming the entire Salman River drainage. Is this documented some where? Are there some details of this?
Thanks.

 

[lostcoast]

Somewhat related:

Bill would place federal land into trust for the Karuk Tribe

New legislation is being introduced that would return just over 1,000 acres of land located in Humboldt and Siskiyou counties to the Karuk Tribe.

www.ijpr.org

Also:

karuk climate change projects

karuktribeclimatechangeprojects.com

The Karuk Tribe is a federally recognized Indian Tribe (73 Fed. Reg. 18,535, 18, 544 (April 4, 2008)) occupying aboriginal lands along the middle course of the Klamath and Salmon Rivers in Northern California. The Tribe’s Aboriginal Territory has been previously mapped and includes an estimated 1.48 million acres, within the Klamath River Basin. This Territory is the land base that was utilized in the process of receiving a determination of Tribal recognition.

The Tribe continues to exercise jurisdiction over tribal lands and territories. Nearly all of The Karuk Aboriginal Territory is located concurrent to lands administered by the USDA Forest Service’s Klamath and Six Rivers National Forests.

And:

Land Management

www.karuk.us

Map of Karuk Tribe Aboriginal Territory:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-Karuk-Aboriginal-Territory-California-and-Oregon-US-with-overlapping-National_fig1_308925442

 

[et1955]

They are probably on vacation like some of the rest of us. I kind of wonder if they ever staff their office everyday during the winter (especially with business changes due to COVID). The tribe and much of the other folks in HC are more serious than the rest of the county about COVID precautions. Bout all you can do is leave a message with your number.

Vacation, I work 7 days a week, leave message not going to happen, my time is valuable.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Seems to me folks would be a lot better off if they just learned to get along no matter what their daddy's daddy did. Having centuries of asskicking contests just makes everybody look like a bunch of goobers.

The genocide of the California tribes was an atrocity. They certainly didn't deserve it. I think if you look back through history everyone would find their ancestors were subject to mass murder at some point. That doesn't make what happened to the original populations of the western and eastern hemispheres right.

This isn't a game you can win. Retribution or compensation don't in any way "make up" for the atrocities of the past but they do create resentment in the present time. You can smell it here and everywhere else it's been tried.

No, the only way to make this better is to decide you don't want to be a goober anymore and walk away from the perpetual asskicking contest. Cold turkey.

If you think this is off topic consider this. If the folks from the club that are reading this forum would do the right thing by Ed instead of reading with a silent smirk. And if Ed could take the chip off his shoulder for just long enough for everybody to make things right we could see a genuine freekin miner's miracle right here for New Years.

That would be cool.

Heavy Pans