Rebel - KGC
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Great Shawnee Cave (from Treasure Net)
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Rebel - KGC
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Re: Great Shawnee Cave (from Treasure Net)... update?
Yo!
Need an update... what's the latest? 
Yo!
Need an update... what's the latest? Rebel,
The Great Shawnee Cave is local legend in these parts. Try reading Connelley's History of Kentucky (I think that's the right name) and you should be able to read a little more about the Swift legend, esp. concerning Chief Blue Jacket (I think that's the right name.) It's been awhile since I looked at all of this. I have tried to do genealogical research on Swift's company and I have mixed concerns about the validity of the legend. Also, there is a story or two by Addington (I think)...title is something like History of Southwest VA.
Hope this helps with your research.
Cavers5
The Great Shawnee Cave is local legend in these parts. Try reading Connelley's History of Kentucky (I think that's the right name) and you should be able to read a little more about the Swift legend, esp. concerning Chief Blue Jacket (I think that's the right name.) It's been awhile since I looked at all of this. I have tried to do genealogical research on Swift's company and I have mixed concerns about the validity of the legend. Also, there is a story or two by Addington (I think)...title is something like History of Southwest VA.
Hope this helps with your research.
Cavers5
swiftsearcher
Sr. Member
I am getting close! I have narrowed my search in the past few weeks. When you look at a map and see you only have around a square mile to search, it looks easy. Then, when you go out in the field, you realize it could take SEVERAL WEEKS! Especially with all the laurel and rough terrain!
Did you ever publish the book? I have a friend who has been looking for the Great Shawnee Cave for a number of years now. He has some great clues to its whereabouts.He has talked with many people from that area and has found some interesting tales of one mans sudden fortune,where he bought up a lot of land with his new found wealth.It is on the Kentucky side of Pine mountain.From what we have learned from our sources,someone has found and emptied the great cave of its riches.That does not mean that it is totally cleaned out but there are probably not much left unless it was hidden from view,which is a real possibility.One entrance is on the Kentucky side and the other is on the Virginia side.The entrance from the Virginia side is through a creek,so would be hard to enter from this side. I don't have much left to reveal but I would be able to give the actual location we came up with if I need to.Good Luck. rockhound
Rebel - KGC
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Shawnee Nation was from Ohio; it makes sense that the GREAT SHAWNEE CAVE would be in RRG, in Kentucky... ANY updates? 
My friend came by a short time ago and I did a map dowse for him. I don't know if he has followed up on it yet or not. I haven't seen him since I did the dowse. He was pretty excited about the location I dowsed for him. He had already done some research and found several clues but hadn't been able to find the entrance, which is what I dowsed. One on the Virginia side and one on the Kentucky side. It goes through the mountains under pound gap. Obviously a huge cavern used by the Shawnee in times of war and possibly burial rituals. Also supposedly used by John Swift to stache some of his siver coinage he minted. He supposedly befriended an indian who showed him its location as well as some silver mines that the indians had mined silver from. It supposedly was emptied long ago by a gentleman who lived in Kentucky and bought up almost all the land in the county. However, there may be secret passages where Swift and the indians buried their prize possessions to keep from being ransaked. Swift was good at hiding his silver and could have easily walled over any entrance to another tunnel or section of the cave, especially if it were a smaller entrance to another section. It could be interesting if someone did enter that cavern and do some investigating of the walls. If he doesn't return in a reasonable amount of time, I will pinpoint my dowsed location for any who want to pursue it. According to my dowsed location it is easy to see why no one has found it recently. It is well camoflaged either by nature or by the indians themselves, or both. Good Luck. rockhound
Swifty
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All ye Swift Hunters, 09/14/2011 @ 10:47 P.M.
It is my opinion and I agree with Rebel's statement because of my own research. That the Great Cave of the Shawnee is somewhere in the area of the "RRG". I have heard all the stories of the Great Cave of the Shawnee being somewhere on "Pine Mountain" around "Pound Gap". I have never believed this tale because for several reasons. First off the Shawnee would not have had a sacred place, such as, the "Great Cave" any where near the major capitol towns of the Cherokee, such as, Chota, etc., which were just over the other side of Pine Mountain in Tennessee. The Cherokee basically claimed their empire to extend all the way from the Atlantic ocean to the Mississippi River and from Florida to the Kentucky River and beyond. The Cherokee were a huge nation or confederation of tribes. The Choctaw who were friends and part of the confederation with the Cherokee were also a large tribe from parts of Viginia and West Virginia, whose empire was along the east side of the Big Sandy Drain.
The Shawnee empire was predominantly from the Missouri River to the Scioto River, North of the Ohio River to the Great Lakes. They would travel to Pine mountain to hunt/harass and plunder the Cherokee/Choctaw, etc. Kentucky was a middle ground, known as the Dark Ground or the Dark and bloody hunting ground, it was a middle land, all the local tribes ventured through it, staying briefly, to hunt, resources, etc.
The only permanent villages that were in central and south Kentucky, predominantly where the Shawnee and they were all north of the Kentucky River; far away from any claimed Cherokee and Choctaw land, i.e., would be, Indian Old Fields near present day Winchester, Ky., known as Eskappakatheki. Chief Blue Jacket of the Shawnee Tribe was taken captive as a young boy in this area in the early 1700's . Shawnee also had villages at Irvine, Ky and near Redlick, Ky., both on the northside of the Kentucky River. Boone was even attacked south of the Kentucky River on the South Fork of the Kentucky, "by Shawnee" at Fort Boonesborough in present day Boonesville, Ky., by Chief Blackhoof and Simon Girty. Boone and Findley where also attacked and taken captive by Captain Will of the Shawnee during fur hunting expeditions North of the Kentucky River. John Findley was even threatened not to step foot across the Ky River and eventually was killed by the Shawnee for tresspassing across the Kentucky River. In my opinion the Shawnee were protecting something and they were very adamantly opposed to whites coming across the Kentucky River around the "3 Forks area". The Shawnee hunted on the Little Sandy, all around Grayson and Sandy Nook and West Liberty, and buried their dead at Carter Caves, etc., etc., etc and very possibly the RRG area.
The Cherokee did not police their land beyond the 3 forks of the Kentucky River. The only Cherokee Indian Chief anywhere near the 3 forks of the Kentucky River was Chief Red Bird, near Oneida, Kentucky, (Where I believe approx. the lower mines to be). Once across the Kentucky River it was predominantly Shawnee, with some Mecca/Melongeon inhabitants
Further more when you listen to what Swift says in his journal, he says that, "his party drew lots to see who would work which mines and that we separted from "a fork" on the Big Sandy River. Half of the party went Southwest along the great ridge, (Pine Mountain) to the lower mines, Swift says, "I went due west a considerable distance and crossed a rock bridge that the water flowed under looking for an Indian Trace, to reach the Upper Mines", ( This would be in Wolfe County, near present day Campton, Ky. Swift says, "I very seldom visited the Lower mines". Swift also says, "We stored our wealth in the Great Cave of the Shawnee, which was known to no other living soul other than his immediate party and four Shawnee Indians", while working the "Upper Mines". Swift also says in his journal, while working the "Upper Mines", "We carried our ore 3 miles north of the mines to our furnace. He also mentions that there was another mine, " 2 " minutes north of their principal workings. Swift says, "we accumulated so much wealth that we "decided" to store/conceal it in the Great Cave of the Shawnee. (This puts the cave very nearby the Upper Mines). With so much wealth they could'nt have transported it too far!
So this puts the Great Cave not southwest along the great ridge (Pine Mountain), but west of a fork on the Great Sandy River. There are other numerous reasons I could state but these are the most important reasons as to why I have never believed that the Great Cave of the Shawnee to be any where near Pine Mountain. It is even stated that Swift resided in Bean Station Tennessee, which is right there by Pound Gap. If the Great Cave was at Pound Gap, he would have never returned into KY., blind looking for his lost mine/cave. He would of simply went to the Great Cave right there at Pound Gap.
Luckily my belief in the above stated facts and statements made by Swift in his journal have kept me on they right track of the cave and Swifts Upper Mines. I also have some doubts of someone, "a man", finding the Great Cave and emptying it... and buying a bunch of land with its contents.
There are some facts to this story which I see some discrepancies in, (the way it was told to me), It is possible, and a good probability that this man could have found the Great Cave, but by some things told to me by the late Ralph Volker, and my own research, raises some doubts with me, but it is possible it could have been found, because it does exist. Just as Swifts Upper Mines exist. God willing I will soon know the answer to this story as well.
Sincerely,
Bill N. - aka- "The Swizard"
It is my opinion and I agree with Rebel's statement because of my own research. That the Great Cave of the Shawnee is somewhere in the area of the "RRG". I have heard all the stories of the Great Cave of the Shawnee being somewhere on "Pine Mountain" around "Pound Gap". I have never believed this tale because for several reasons. First off the Shawnee would not have had a sacred place, such as, the "Great Cave" any where near the major capitol towns of the Cherokee, such as, Chota, etc., which were just over the other side of Pine Mountain in Tennessee. The Cherokee basically claimed their empire to extend all the way from the Atlantic ocean to the Mississippi River and from Florida to the Kentucky River and beyond. The Cherokee were a huge nation or confederation of tribes. The Choctaw who were friends and part of the confederation with the Cherokee were also a large tribe from parts of Viginia and West Virginia, whose empire was along the east side of the Big Sandy Drain.
The Shawnee empire was predominantly from the Missouri River to the Scioto River, North of the Ohio River to the Great Lakes. They would travel to Pine mountain to hunt/harass and plunder the Cherokee/Choctaw, etc. Kentucky was a middle ground, known as the Dark Ground or the Dark and bloody hunting ground, it was a middle land, all the local tribes ventured through it, staying briefly, to hunt, resources, etc.
The only permanent villages that were in central and south Kentucky, predominantly where the Shawnee and they were all north of the Kentucky River; far away from any claimed Cherokee and Choctaw land, i.e., would be, Indian Old Fields near present day Winchester, Ky., known as Eskappakatheki. Chief Blue Jacket of the Shawnee Tribe was taken captive as a young boy in this area in the early 1700's . Shawnee also had villages at Irvine, Ky and near Redlick, Ky., both on the northside of the Kentucky River. Boone was even attacked south of the Kentucky River on the South Fork of the Kentucky, "by Shawnee" at Fort Boonesborough in present day Boonesville, Ky., by Chief Blackhoof and Simon Girty. Boone and Findley where also attacked and taken captive by Captain Will of the Shawnee during fur hunting expeditions North of the Kentucky River. John Findley was even threatened not to step foot across the Ky River and eventually was killed by the Shawnee for tresspassing across the Kentucky River. In my opinion the Shawnee were protecting something and they were very adamantly opposed to whites coming across the Kentucky River around the "3 Forks area". The Shawnee hunted on the Little Sandy, all around Grayson and Sandy Nook and West Liberty, and buried their dead at Carter Caves, etc., etc., etc and very possibly the RRG area.
The Cherokee did not police their land beyond the 3 forks of the Kentucky River. The only Cherokee Indian Chief anywhere near the 3 forks of the Kentucky River was Chief Red Bird, near Oneida, Kentucky, (Where I believe approx. the lower mines to be). Once across the Kentucky River it was predominantly Shawnee, with some Mecca/Melongeon inhabitants
Further more when you listen to what Swift says in his journal, he says that, "his party drew lots to see who would work which mines and that we separted from "a fork" on the Big Sandy River. Half of the party went Southwest along the great ridge, (Pine Mountain) to the lower mines, Swift says, "I went due west a considerable distance and crossed a rock bridge that the water flowed under looking for an Indian Trace, to reach the Upper Mines", ( This would be in Wolfe County, near present day Campton, Ky. Swift says, "I very seldom visited the Lower mines". Swift also says, "We stored our wealth in the Great Cave of the Shawnee, which was known to no other living soul other than his immediate party and four Shawnee Indians", while working the "Upper Mines". Swift also says in his journal, while working the "Upper Mines", "We carried our ore 3 miles north of the mines to our furnace. He also mentions that there was another mine, " 2 " minutes north of their principal workings. Swift says, "we accumulated so much wealth that we "decided" to store/conceal it in the Great Cave of the Shawnee. (This puts the cave very nearby the Upper Mines). With so much wealth they could'nt have transported it too far!
So this puts the Great Cave not southwest along the great ridge (Pine Mountain), but west of a fork on the Great Sandy River. There are other numerous reasons I could state but these are the most important reasons as to why I have never believed that the Great Cave of the Shawnee to be any where near Pine Mountain. It is even stated that Swift resided in Bean Station Tennessee, which is right there by Pound Gap. If the Great Cave was at Pound Gap, he would have never returned into KY., blind looking for his lost mine/cave. He would of simply went to the Great Cave right there at Pound Gap.
Luckily my belief in the above stated facts and statements made by Swift in his journal have kept me on they right track of the cave and Swifts Upper Mines. I also have some doubts of someone, "a man", finding the Great Cave and emptying it... and buying a bunch of land with its contents.
There are some facts to this story which I see some discrepancies in, (the way it was told to me), It is possible, and a good probability that this man could have found the Great Cave, but by some things told to me by the late Ralph Volker, and my own research, raises some doubts with me, but it is possible it could have been found, because it does exist. Just as Swifts Upper Mines exist. God willing I will soon know the answer to this story as well.
Sincerely,
Bill N. - aka- "The Swizard"
vamelungeon
Jr. Member
It's a pretty long haul from Bean Station TN to Pound Gap. That's about the only thing you wrote that I would disagree with. I live just a few miles from Pound Gap, less than 10 anyway. Bean Station would take me well over an hour, maybe close to two hours on modern highways.
vamelungeon
Jr. Member
Google maps says it's 104 miles and 1 hour 57 minutes from Pound, VA to Bean Station TN.
vamelungeon
Jr. Member
I can't argue with any of that.
Rebel - KGC
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In the "time" of the Swift "stories", wasn't it ALL, the state of VIRGINIA? BEFORE the Revol. War, it was ALL "Royal" territory, and MAYBE Swift & co. were ex-pirates/privateers engaging in a "new enterprise"; being BRITS, they PROBABLY explored WEST, and engaged in counterfeiting "looted" SPANISH Gold/Silver into "minted" coins for individual colonies, until a "Fed thing" happened after the Revolution. Gov. Spotswood, (ROYAL Governor of VIRGINIA) DID go after the pirates, at the request of the KING of England, then. What if the "NEW ENTERPRISE" was S.W.I.F.T.? AND! Gov. Spotswood... http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Spotswood
Swifty
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Hello Rebel,
Well I quess anything is possible, Rebel, but I just can't see them carrying all that heavy gold and silver all the way into Kentucky/Tennesse or western Virginia from the Atlantic coast or up from the Gulf. There would have been many places they could have counterfieted/smelted Spanish treasure/loot from salvages etc., alot closer to the colonies than coming over all those mountain ranges to do it. No I tend to think it was coming from the interior somewhere like the legend goes.
It is highly possible with all the geologic activity from continental collisions that went on for several 100 million years on the eastern coast, i.e (Piedmont Tract), that precious minerals precipatated up from the immense pressures and volcanic activity produced by the collisions. There was alot of buckleing, folding, rifting and faulting going on as well. Not to mention the enormous amounts of sediments that were washed westward. I am a geologist and it is more sensible to me to assume otherwise, that in places in the interior craton there are veins and pockets of minerals that were geologically produced from these collisions. It is where Swift says it is, I believe the legend, its just that noone has found it yet and if they have they ain't saying anything.
S.W.I.F.T could be code for pirates or a counterfeiting interprize but the silver and gold was coming from somewhere in the interior I believe.
Sincerely,
Bill N. - aka - "The Swizard"
Well I quess anything is possible, Rebel, but I just can't see them carrying all that heavy gold and silver all the way into Kentucky/Tennesse or western Virginia from the Atlantic coast or up from the Gulf. There would have been many places they could have counterfieted/smelted Spanish treasure/loot from salvages etc., alot closer to the colonies than coming over all those mountain ranges to do it. No I tend to think it was coming from the interior somewhere like the legend goes.
It is highly possible with all the geologic activity from continental collisions that went on for several 100 million years on the eastern coast, i.e (Piedmont Tract), that precious minerals precipatated up from the immense pressures and volcanic activity produced by the collisions. There was alot of buckleing, folding, rifting and faulting going on as well. Not to mention the enormous amounts of sediments that were washed westward. I am a geologist and it is more sensible to me to assume otherwise, that in places in the interior craton there are veins and pockets of minerals that were geologically produced from these collisions. It is where Swift says it is, I believe the legend, its just that noone has found it yet and if they have they ain't saying anything.
S.W.I.F.T could be code for pirates or a counterfeiting interprize but the silver and gold was coming from somewhere in the interior I believe.
Sincerely,
Bill N. - aka - "The Swizard"
swiftfan
Sr. Member
Hey Swiz! How's it going? Sounds like you are on to something. Seems like I remember something swift said about the upper mines being the rich mines. and would be reasonable to think that the Great Cave would be near to their location. With the limestone in the area, big caves are around there all right. I guess I need to sit down and map it for myself, using the journals, and see where it brings me.
Now if I may.. Could it be that Swift being a privateer, was secretly mining this silver for the colonies? Possibly to fund a upcoming war with England? He did after all, counterfit English coins and French crowns, two coins used in the colonies at the time. That much silver would have been very hard to explain for anyone to have without a "legitable" business, such as a shipping fleet. Hmm.. sounds like a good story to put on paper. I think I'll hold on to that one..LOL. Anyway, good luck in your endeavours, email me sometime, and we'll talk..
Later gaters,
-swiftfan-
(Matt James)
Now if I may.. Could it be that Swift being a privateer, was secretly mining this silver for the colonies? Possibly to fund a upcoming war with England? He did after all, counterfit English coins and French crowns, two coins used in the colonies at the time. That much silver would have been very hard to explain for anyone to have without a "legitable" business, such as a shipping fleet. Hmm.. sounds like a good story to put on paper. I think I'll hold on to that one..LOL. Anyway, good luck in your endeavours, email me sometime, and we'll talk..
Later gaters,
-swiftfan-
(Matt James)
It don't make sense that they would transport gold and silver from the coast to the interior of Va or Ky. I think they either found lost Spainish treasure or found where the Indians had mined and may have still been actively mining. With all the trouble they were having with the Indians, it would not have been advisable to transport very much treasure at one time to slow them down. Traveling in the mountains would have been slow anyway and add to that the constant threat of Indian attacks and finding food for the camp would have required them to post guards constantly to insure no surprise attack happened. They also could have been high grading the Indians mined reserves, which would have infuriated them. I am realtively sure though that the gold and silver came out of the ground. There are many caverns in the Va, Ky, and West Va mountainous regions, where could have been called The Great Shawnee cave. Personally, I think the Indians themselves tried to sway opinon of the location of the cave, as most anyone would do if it were found. I have not done nearly as much in depth research into the subject as some of you, and was only trying to help my friend in his research. I've not seen him in a while and have no idea whether he has had any success in trying to locate it. He was under the impression though, after speaking to some local older people in the area, that it was a good possibilty it was on or near Pine mountain. Many legions are told about Swift and his treasure adventures in that area as well as in Kentucky, West Virginia and even in Tennessee. I have personally seen some of his smelters in Tennessee, or some ones from the same period. Good Luck rockhound
vamelungeon
Jr. Member
I've never believed the "pirates theory" either. Why on earth would you go into a deadly place to "convert" pirate plunder
A LOT of people were killed in SWVA and Eastern KY in those days by Indians. It wasn't a game and the Indians weren't joking. They would kill you in a heartbeat just for being there, just for being a white man. I don't think anyone who has promoted that theory understands the danger involved.
A LOT of people were killed in SWVA and Eastern KY in those days by Indians. It wasn't a game and the Indians weren't joking. They would kill you in a heartbeat just for being there, just for being a white man. I don't think anyone who has promoted that theory understands the danger involved.
-Ki-
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Swiz is on to something... laid out facts quite well. Daniel Boone even tells about going west a considerable distance from a fork on the Sandy, prob the same fork of the Sandy river Swift mentioned. In Boone going west it brought him to the Red River watershed. If Swift worked the upper mines and went west a considerable distance from a fork on the Sandy River, then that would put Swift in the Red River Gorge region. And i agree again here with Swizz, Upper Mines = Shawnee Cave. The key here is understanding the Shawnee. Good luck Swiz... awesome research 
Rebel - KGC
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I agree it is in the RRG; "google" Shawnee Legends... Coffee?
-Ki-
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http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,339943.0.html
In the link to the story above...old story telling of a Shawnee legend of a great silver mine somewhere on the Red River....
I get 3 clues from the story involed with Swift.... Bluejacket, Red River, Great Silver Mine.
I would say they were looking for both the Shawnee Cave, plus Swift's upper mines.
In the link to the story above...old story telling of a Shawnee legend of a great silver mine somewhere on the Red River....
I get 3 clues from the story involed with Swift.... Bluejacket, Red River, Great Silver Mine.
I would say they were looking for both the Shawnee Cave, plus Swift's upper mines.
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