cactusjumper
Gold Member
This is my uncle's tracing of the Frank Fish map that Lake Erie Schaefer had.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
Frank Fish Map..
- Thread starter djui5
- Start date
Joe would be personally closer to the original sources of the Frank Fish story than I, so it would be hoped he will add to this:
Lake Erie Schafer acquired the Fish map and became part of the "Legends of Adventure" group which also consisted of Bill Schaefer, John and Rue Burbridge, Myron and Dorothy Brun, Walter and Rose Almantrout, Darrel and Pat Robertson and Pedro Peralta. Darrel Robertson was the source for Native American information and Pedro Peralta brought the Peralta family history to the table. John Burbridge was a member of one of Barry Storms groups.
There are 2 stories of the maps account of how it came to the Superstition museum. One has Erie Schaefer selling it to Johnny Pounds who donated it and the other is Al Reser bought it off Bill Schaefer after Erie had passed away and donated it. Either way the map in the museum is supposedly the original. Erie received possesion of the Map after the death of Frank Fish. It was located in his museum at that time. Much of his material was looted after his death and not recovered.
John Burbridge made a tracing of the map and the members each signed it and the further copies. It was after this that they treated the map and it went from light tan to dark brown. Dr Glovers printed photo is Linda Paraltas copy of the tracing I believe. Burbridge was unable to make out some of the spelling and it may be incorrect in his translations.
Several caches were discovered using the map. Joe may know more of the Black top sites and what they found. There was another cache found further north and west by Burbridge in the Second water spring vicinity. 7 gold bars were removed from one cache as that story goes. The area is interesting and sometimes neglected in the lore.
Frank Fish published one book " Buried treasure and lost mines" and Ben Traywick published another titled " Who Killed Frank Fish". Both are difficult to come by I believe, but worth tracking down for a complete picture.
There are several variations of how Frank Fish came upon the Map. Erwin Ruth and the Peralta family are amongst these. It is generally thought that Fish obtained them from the Peralta family in Mexico in the late 20s or 30s with a promise of splitting the booty between them. Schaefers story follows that a teenage Fish obtained them much earlier than that. Frank Fish was unsuccessful in using the map as far as I know.
Lake Erie Schafer acquired the Fish map and became part of the "Legends of Adventure" group which also consisted of Bill Schaefer, John and Rue Burbridge, Myron and Dorothy Brun, Walter and Rose Almantrout, Darrel and Pat Robertson and Pedro Peralta. Darrel Robertson was the source for Native American information and Pedro Peralta brought the Peralta family history to the table. John Burbridge was a member of one of Barry Storms groups.
There are 2 stories of the maps account of how it came to the Superstition museum. One has Erie Schaefer selling it to Johnny Pounds who donated it and the other is Al Reser bought it off Bill Schaefer after Erie had passed away and donated it. Either way the map in the museum is supposedly the original. Erie received possesion of the Map after the death of Frank Fish. It was located in his museum at that time. Much of his material was looted after his death and not recovered.
John Burbridge made a tracing of the map and the members each signed it and the further copies. It was after this that they treated the map and it went from light tan to dark brown. Dr Glovers printed photo is Linda Paraltas copy of the tracing I believe. Burbridge was unable to make out some of the spelling and it may be incorrect in his translations.
Several caches were discovered using the map. Joe may know more of the Black top sites and what they found. There was another cache found further north and west by Burbridge in the Second water spring vicinity. 7 gold bars were removed from one cache as that story goes. The area is interesting and sometimes neglected in the lore.
Frank Fish published one book " Buried treasure and lost mines" and Ben Traywick published another titled " Who Killed Frank Fish". Both are difficult to come by I believe, but worth tracking down for a complete picture.
There are several variations of how Frank Fish came upon the Map. Erwin Ruth and the Peralta family are amongst these. It is generally thought that Fish obtained them from the Peralta family in Mexico in the late 20s or 30s with a promise of splitting the booty between them. Schaefers story follows that a teenage Fish obtained them much earlier than that. Frank Fish was unsuccessful in using the map as far as I know.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Sentinel,
The most accurate account of what happened to the "Fish Map" after Frank Fish died, can be found under the topic of "The Fish Map" on the LDM Forum. The post by Greg Davis on Apr. 22, 2004, is as good as it gets.
As to how Frank Fish actually came by the map, that's always going to be up for debate.
It seems to me, that you have to go on the assumption that the map is the real deal. If you assume otherwise, without any material evidence, you gain nothing positive. The same reasoning can be used on most treasure stories.
All of the above is just opinion.
Good luck and good hunting,
Joe
The most accurate account of what happened to the "Fish Map" after Frank Fish died, can be found under the topic of "The Fish Map" on the LDM Forum. The post by Greg Davis on Apr. 22, 2004, is as good as it gets.
As to how Frank Fish actually came by the map, that's always going to be up for debate.
It seems to me, that you have to go on the assumption that the map is the real deal. If you assume otherwise, without any material evidence, you gain nothing positive. The same reasoning can be used on most treasure stories.
All of the above is just opinion.
Good luck and good hunting,
Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Randy,
As I said, that will always be up for debate. At this late date, I doubt there is anyone left alive who actually knows. Some will claim they know, but it seems doubtful. My only question on the matter, is: Why didn't Frank mention it in his book? It should have been a center piece.
Joe
As I said, that will always be up for debate. At this late date, I doubt there is anyone left alive who actually knows. Some will claim they know, but it seems doubtful. My only question on the matter, is: Why didn't Frank mention it in his book? It should have been a center piece.
Joe
That is an excellent question.
For some reason Frank Fish was unsuccessful in using the Map.
That others were successful, is unusual.
Perhaps Frank still believed in the map and didn't want to draw attention. I don't know if the map was public until after the Burbridge group acquired copies through Schaefer. Greg mentioned it was kept hidden behind a painting or something in the museum, so at that time it was not on public display. It could of been the consolodation of the adventure groups resources that helped, but the map seems logical enough to the general area.
I don't think much of the lack of publicity around the map from Fish. There is no journal or written directions from Petrasch or Thomas either. The best clues are kept secret. The best maps not revealed until they are thought useless.
For some reason Frank Fish was unsuccessful in using the Map.
That others were successful, is unusual.
Perhaps Frank still believed in the map and didn't want to draw attention. I don't know if the map was public until after the Burbridge group acquired copies through Schaefer. Greg mentioned it was kept hidden behind a painting or something in the museum, so at that time it was not on public display. It could of been the consolodation of the adventure groups resources that helped, but the map seems logical enough to the general area.
I don't think much of the lack of publicity around the map from Fish. There is no journal or written directions from Petrasch or Thomas either. The best clues are kept secret. The best maps not revealed until they are thought useless.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Sentinel,
Petrasch and Julia Thomas did not write a book about treasure hunting.
It is not the details of the Fish Map that would be important to the sales of a book, but rather, the story. It would be illogical to leave that story out of his book.
On the other hand, why did Lake Erie Schaefer make it public? Did she no longer believe the map was authentic? I doubt anyone found anything on Black Top with that map. Chuck would have known, as he was inside that loop.
Joe
Petrasch and Julia Thomas did not write a book about treasure hunting.
It is not the details of the Fish Map that would be important to the sales of a book, but rather, the story. It would be illogical to leave that story out of his book.
On the other hand, why did Lake Erie Schaefer make it public? Did she no longer believe the map was authentic? I doubt anyone found anything on Black Top with that map. Chuck would have known, as he was inside that loop.
Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Erie's book was published in December of 1968. I have a signed first edition to the Ribaudo's. She also signed a copy of the Frank Fish book.
There were a lot of copies of the map being made and circulated after 1965. I am not sure exactly when it was first published. While Erie told the story of the map in her book, she did not include a picture of it.
Bob Ward and Helen Corbin first published their books in 1990. Both seemed to have, pretty much, the same drawing of the Fish Map. It may have been published earlier, but someone like Greg Davis might be the only one who can say for sure.
Joe
There were a lot of copies of the map being made and circulated after 1965. I am not sure exactly when it was first published. While Erie told the story of the map in her book, she did not include a picture of it.
Bob Ward and Helen Corbin first published their books in 1990. Both seemed to have, pretty much, the same drawing of the Fish Map. It may have been published earlier, but someone like Greg Davis might be the only one who can say for sure.
Joe
Tried to post a reply 3 times. Each time it failed to load and I lost the entire post. tired of losing posts here and other problems. Judging by the activity back home: 135 views and no replies, we would be just as well discussing it there. Why the three of us are even here discussing a subject no one else cares about is beyond me.
Joe,
you summed it up best over there and because of that I will sit and watch the rocks grow until things come around.
Sentinel was really cool and just a phonetical play on my username.
Joe,
you summed it up best over there and because of that I will sit and watch the rocks grow until things come around.
Sentinel was really cool and just a phonetical play on my username.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
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"Hush yo cottin pikin mouth Sent"., heehe, I am, very interested, but just what can I possibly contribute yet?
Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp
Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Sentinel,
Don't know why you are having problems posting, I have had none.
Lot's of topics here, with lot's of exposure for comments. The Frank Fish Topic, while not as popular as the Stone Maps, has respectable views for the time it's been around. Probably not as many people are familiar with the story.
If you are talking about the LDM Forum, it's been discussed a number of times over there, and the Forum is not popular at this time. They took too long to take control of the situation......Free speech and all. The site is now paying for that neglect.
As long as a few people are interested in the subject, I should think it's worth the ink.
Take care,
Joe
Don't know why you are having problems posting, I have had none.
Lot's of topics here, with lot's of exposure for comments. The Frank Fish Topic, while not as popular as the Stone Maps, has respectable views for the time it's been around. Probably not as many people are familiar with the story.
If you are talking about the LDM Forum, it's been discussed a number of times over there, and the Forum is not popular at this time. They took too long to take control of the situation......Free speech and all. The site is now paying for that neglect.
As long as a few people are interested in the subject, I should think it's worth the ink.
Take care,
Joe
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
i agree with CJ the topic of the frank fish map is at the top of any good LDM hunters list if they are smart that is . the map from what i know is real as is the tracing that Cj has ...or his uncle had back than that he showed here at the site ...there person that draw the frank fish map not only knew the mts but the aera of the sites as well ...and it is drawn from one piont i now this for a fact i have a picture taken from that piont ...
Azquester
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I think the only way the Fish Map lines up is by using the river as a mirror image symbol for reversing the map typical Spanish map trick.
Here's an example:
View attachment 1431739
It seems to be the only way landmarks on the map line up in any order.
Here's an example:
View attachment 1431739
It seems to be the only way landmarks on the map line up in any order.
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