🔎 UNIDENTIFIED Found a Roman Coin

[Benclark]

Does anybody know if it is Roman and possibly from what year? Also, does this hold any value?

 

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[Benclark]

Unless the coin is being held by an infant, the diameter is too big for a Roman coin.
Don.....

I’m 6’0, 180.

 

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[Red-Coat]

Whats the diameter of it....?

I’m 6’0, 180.

Ben, it's a perfectly simple question. What is the diameter of the coin/medallion?

 

[tamrock]

The box belonged to an Italian soldier that gave it to my great uncle as payment for transporting his things from Italy to Mexico. My great uncle had an import/export company.

The rest of the box contained Nazi memorabilia which I’m not sure what to do with :/

Well I don't know the rules on selling Nazi items on Treasurenet once you pay the annual fee to be a charter member, but they may allow it. On eBay they'll take anything Nazi related down, but years back I was able to slip a Nazi Sextant made by C. Plath to a buyer in Norway. I didn't use the word Nazi in the listing, but the sextant had the swastika on it and the box it was in.

 

[Retired Sarge]

The box belonged to an Italian soldier that gave it to my great uncle as payment for transporting his things from Italy to Mexico. My great uncle had an import/export company.

The rest of the box contained Nazi memorabilia which I’m not sure what to do with :/

First thing is to have the Nazi Era memorabilia authenticated. Once that is done, then a price on the items can be established.

A great site for learning more on Nazi Era items is the Wehrmacht-Awards site. If you want you can email me pictures of the items at, [email protected] ,I will then post them over at the Wehrmacht-Awards site and send you the links to the posts for you to follow.

 

[Benclark]

I don’t know what this is, or if it is ancient, but I have some thoughts.

The figure at the left is wearing a Corinthian (Greek) helmet, pushed back over the forehead, like this:

View attachment 2047427

That’s one of the common depictions for Athena on coins and elsewhere, as the Greek goddess of warfare (and wisdom). She was also the protectress of various Greek cities, and especially Athens from which the name likely derives (or vice-versa). I can’t see the facing figure as having a Greek helmet style, nor a Roman one. Also, at the top of the reverse, I can see the letters ‘Ο Γ Γ’ (or possibly ‘O T Γ’), which would be consistent with the ancient Greek alphabet. Likely this will be an abbreviated form for the name of a place, authority or person (including the possibility of a ruler) but it’s not something I have seen before. The ‘E’ at the left would also be within the ancient Greek alphabet and might be a mintmark. The other characters I’m not sure about.

Ancient Greek bronze coins can be commonly found in sizes between 30-40mm and occasionally beyond, so I don’t have a problem with the size and weight. Some of the larger ones are often referred to as ‘medallions’ but in many cases there’s no doubt that they were coins… only doubt about whether they commonly circulated as ordinary currency.

I use the word “Greek” in the sense that it applies to the Greek Empire in general, its related Kingdoms and its Greek-speaking colonial territories which stretched far and wide in ancient times.

The decline of Greek influence began with the Roman victory at the Battle of Corinth in 146 BC but many areas were allowed to retain their Greek heritage under Roman rule for some time. Coins with Greek symbolism or with a combination of Greek and Roman imagery are not uncommon after the Roman victory at Corinth, but I can’t see the figure facing Athena as Roman.

IF this is an authentic ancient coin (or medallion), my guess is that it’s from some far-flung part of the Greek Empire as an obscure local issue and that the figure facing Athena relates to the original heritage of that territory, or a local King under the Greek umbrella. I could see the helmet style as possibly being from the Middle East or Near East. Persia, for example, but there are other possibilities. Until about 1 BC, the Indo-Greek Empire still existed in Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan and NW India, undisturbed by any Roman conquest or interference.

I haven’t seen the ‘sow with piglets’ before, either. It might be symbolism for prosperity or ‘benevolent mothership’ under Greek rule (my guess).

Wow, @Red-Coat awesome insights. Thanks!

 

[Benclark]

Ben, it's a perfectly simple question. What is the diameter of the coin/medallion?

Sorry, didnt mean for it to come across as rude. I didnt have it with me and thought giving my dimensions would get an idea of size. Ill measure it and post.

 

[jcc]

For what it's worth Red-Coat is one of the least controversial members and demonstrates an in-depth knowledge of a range of ancient artifacts...

Diameter, weight, material, is the patina correct for the material?

The helmet opposite Athena shares some features with an Etruscan style "jockey cap" helmet...

 

[Benclark]

It would help if the OP told us the exact diameter. Agreed it's too big for a Roman coin, but (1) we don't know if it's a coin and (2) for reasons already pointed out, I believe it to have Greek origins, not Roman.

As I already said, ancient Greek bronze coins can commonly be found in the region of 30-40mm and the largest confirmed coins in circulation were around 47mm. If it's a medallion rather than a coin (whether Greek or not) then all bets are off with respect to possible maximum sizes.

I was able to find it!

acsearch.info - Auction research

www.acsearch.info

 

[Benclark]

The description says:

Paduans and Copies
Fantasy Æ Cast Paduan Medallion.

Does that mean the one being auctioned on that site is a copy?

 

[Mackaydon]

Would be interesting to know why the auction house put Pudua in the attribution.
Pudua is about 10 miles west of Venice, in the far north of the country.
The medallion was sold two years ago and although I'm signed on with that auction house, I have declined the opportunity to pay more and find out what the piece sold for.
Interesting find, for sure.
Don........

 

[Red-Coat]

I was able to find it!

acsearch.info - Auction research

www.acsearch.info

The description says:

Paduans and Copies
Fantasy Æ Cast Paduan Medallion.

Does that mean the one being auctioned on that site is a copy?

Would be interesting to know why the auction house put Pudua in the attribution.
Pudua is about 10 miles west of Venice, in the far north of the country.
The medallion was sold two years ago and although I'm signed on with that auction house, I have declined the opportunity to pay more and find out what the piece sold for.
Interesting find, for sure.
Don........

Well found!

It all makes sense now. The term “Paduan” originally referred to counterfeit ancient coins intended to defraud collectors, and produced by skilled engravers operating in Padua, Italy from the mid-1500s onwards. The most prolific, skillful and successful of these fraudsters were Jean Cavino and Alexander Bassiano, in partnership from around 1540. Along with fakes from other engravers, their coins ultimately ended up in many prestigious collections and also in museums, without having been recognised as counterfeit.

The term “Paduan” was ultimately extended as a generic to include other items with lesser degrees of engraving skill, including medallions as well as coins, and also for fantasy items where no actual ancient counterpart ever existed. As a term it doesn’t necessarily imply that these later items were actually produced in Padua… just that they were likely produced in Italy sometime up to around the late 1800s for the same profit-making reasons as those originally made in Padua in earlier times.

“Fantasy” means what it says, and they often include design elements borrowed from multiple cultures or time periods that don’t belong together. The auction listing you found shows one of these “Paduan” fantasies, but of uncertain age. It’s not a copy, since no original ancient item existed. The listing describes one of the busts as “Minerva (?)” and “wearing a Corinthian helmet” as I illustrated earlier, but Minerva was the Roman parallel to the Greek Athena and doesn’t usually wear that helmet on “fully” Roman coins.

That particular item had a pre-sale estimate of £50 and sold for £30 (British Pounds sterling).


The medals usually termed Paduan are gross and palpable cheats, that can deceive no one ; but those struck by the Paduans themselves require great skill to detect. Without reaching the finish of modelling and the lightness of the ancient graver, they had gained a method and style which baffle the most experienced eye.
[Ref: The Paduan Coin Forgers - Numismatic Chronicle & Journal of the Numismatic Society; April 1843-January 1844).

 

[Benclark]

Well found!

It all makes sense now. The term “Paduan” originally referred to counterfeit ancient coins intended to defraud collectors, and produced by skilled engravers operating in Padua, Italy from the mid-1500s onwards. The most prolific, skillful and successful of these fraudsters were Jean Cavino and Alexander Bassiano, in partnership from around 1540. Along with fakes from other engravers, their coins ultimately ended up in many prestigious collections and also in museums, without having been recognised as counterfeit.

The term “Paduan” was ultimately extended as a generic to include other items with lesser degrees of engraving skill, including medallions as well as coins, and also for fantasy items where no actual ancient counterpart ever existed. As a term it doesn’t necessarily imply that these later items were actually produced in Padua… just that they were likely produced in Italy sometime up to around the late 1800s for the same profit-making reasons as those originally made in Padua in earlier times.

“Fantasy” means what it says, and they often include design elements borrowed from multiple cultures or time periods that don’t belong together. The auction listing you found shows one of these “Paduan” fantasies, but of uncertain age. It’s not a copy, since no original ancient item existed. The listing describes one of the busts as “Minerva (?)” and “wearing a Corinthian helmet” as I illustrated earlier, but Minerva was the Roman parallel to the Greek Athena and doesn’t usually wear that helmet on “fully” Roman coins.

That particular item had a pre-sale estimate of £50 and sold for £30 (British Pounds sterling).


The medals usually termed Paduan are gross and palpable cheats, that can deceive no one ; but those struck by the Paduans themselves require great skill to detect. Without reaching the finish of modelling and the lightness of the ancient graver, they had gained a method and style which baffle the most experienced eye.
[Ref: The Paduan Coin Forgers - Numismatic Chronicle & Journal of the Numismatic Society; April 1843-January 1844).

Thanks for the in-depth reply, your knowledge is incredible.

So basically the coin doesn’t have much value :/

 

[Red-Coat]

Thanks for the in-depth reply, your knowledge is incredible.

So basically the coin doesn’t have much value :/

You're welcome Ben.

Sadly not valuable but a very interesting item. I'd have happily paid £30 for it.