Folks, Ethics.......

[bill from lachine]

Terry,

We all do the best we can and hope for the best.....hopefully add a bit more to the glass than we take out....but yeah we all screw up along the way.....here's a song that fits the bill.

How many of us have waived, or changed our "ethics," when it suited us in life? I wish I could live my life without judging my fellow man, or doing what's right EVERY time but, alas, I am not Jesus, Buddha, or Mohamed.

I grew up in Sunday school, knowing I would certainly go to Hell if I committed one of the deadly sins. Yet, I willingly joined the Army and shot back when I was shot at. I still get mad when some “clueless” person has 27-items in the 12-item only express checkout line, yet I have “snuck in” with 14 myself.

I could tell you all about some of my heroic deeds, and how proud I was to do the right thing - or help another person or animal in dire need, but then I would have to write another 12,000 words describing all the times I was selfish, lied, or just didn’t care. We have all been around a while and most of us have figured out that you make your own breaks, create your own karma. What goes around DOES come back around. We ALL pay the piper.

Live well, and be as good a person as you can be. Never let anyone take advantage of you, and try not to take advantage of others. I just try and keep my stack of white rocks, higher than my stack of black rocks..

 

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[Crispin]

What remains true is the rain falls on the wicked and the righteous. The idealized world you describe isn't consistent with my experience. I've known wicked people that show no guilt or remorse. Sociopaths. Others that have done little wrong that indulge in their imperfection.
What I was exploring was the person that was wronged and the effect of living a life where they denied themselves their revenge.Often the system denies them too. More concern about the victim then the perp.
If the law allowed a victim their revenge would it be healthier than living without the perp being punished? The closest allowed now is to witness an execution in some states. What if the victim could pull the trigger?

Uneducated opinion: I have heard that most families forgive the murderer by the time of the execution. They do not take joy or solace at it, but find closure. Closure is not the same as revenge.

Educated opinion: Nobody goes through live without being wronged. Some worse then others, the act of learning to forgive is essential to developing an intact ego structure. Estranging people systematically from one's life leads to isolation and despair. Of course, estrangement for severe reasons is also necessary, but this is not revenge either. It is closure.

Personal Note: Hvacker...my friend, my world is far from idealized. I have bought my experience, knowledge, and wisdom with a price, much like many others on this forum. If I could undo the trauma and terrors I have seen I would, in a heartbeat. People ask me all the time, "Was it worth it? Would you go to med school again and enter the same speciality?" I will not answer that on this forum...I have not answered that to my closest friends and family. I can tell you, my friends and family see the burden of what I do, they hear only a fraction of the pain. No, call my world paranoid, call it insane, call it Pinko Commie Liberal, but do not call it idealized...

Best,
Crispin

Ps. You wanna join my club? I was hard to tell from your posts.

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

How many of us have waived, or changed our "ethics," when it suited us in life? I wish I could live my life without judging my fellow man, or doing what's right EVERY time but, alas, I am not Jesus, Buddha, or Mohamed.

I grew up in Sunday school, knowing I would certainly go to Hell if I committed one of the deadly sins. Yet, I willingly joined the Army and shot back when I was shot at. I still get mad when some “clueless” person has 27-items in the 12-item only express checkout line, yet I have “snuck in” with 14 myself.

I could tell you all about some of my heroic deeds, and how proud I was to do the right thing - or help another person or animal in dire need, but then I would have to write another 12,000 words describing all the times I was selfish, lied, or just didn’t care. We have all been around a while and most of us have figured out that you make your own breaks, create your own karma. What goes around DOES come back around. We ALL pay the piper.

Live well, and be as good a person as you can be. Never let anyone take advantage of you, and try not to take advantage of others. I just try and keep my stack of white rocks, higher than my stack of black rocks..

Very well said, Terry.
There is the best in the worst of us and the worst in the best of us.
Within all of us we have the capacity to be both sinner and saint.
I try to always remember that; Anything I could say about another, the exact same could be said about me (perhaps at one time or another).

There ARE very wise teachings in the inferences here. imho, it boils down to whether you can honestly judge yourself, lay down at night and sleep, and live with yourself. It's about reconciling oneself, within owns own mind. That's where most tend to miss the teachings, it's all about ones own mind. Practices that if done correctly, allow the mind(brain) do what it was intended to do: Keep stress and anxieties at acceptable or reduced levels (and to live among man in accordance to that which is right and proper).

If one governs themselves within the proper moral compasses, then interactions between man would be equally fair for all. I beleive it come from an Aquarian book, that, "If man truly loved dog, he would not lie, murder, or cheat, he would not treat his brother or neighbor unfairly, If he TRULY loved all, there would be no NEED for laws and rules".
(We are a very selfish race). And in the end where does it get any of us? All at the same place, deaths' door.

Sorry for the hairball there, I'm just a cat, whadda I know?

 

[bill from lachine]

cat,

This ones for you.

 

[hvacker]

Uneducated opinion: I have heard that most families forgive the murderer by the time of the execution. They do not take joy or solace at it, but find closure. Closure is not the same as revenge.

Educated opinion: Nobody goes through live without being wronged. Some worse then others, the act of learning to forgive is essential to developing an intact ego structure. Estranging people systematically from one's life leads to isolation and despair. Of course, estrangement for severe reasons is also necessary, but this is not revenge either. It is closure.

Personal Note: Hvacker...my friend, my world is far from idealized. I have bought my experience, knowledge, and wisdom with a price, much like many others on this forum. If I could undo the trauma and terrors I have seen I would, in a heartbeat. People ask me all the time, "Was it worth it? Would you go to med school again and enter the same speciality?" I will not answer that on this forum...I have not answered that to my closest friends and family. I can tell you, my friends and family see the burden of what I do, they hear only a fraction of the pain. No, call my world paranoid, call it insane, call it Pinko Commie Liberal, but do not call it idealized...

Best,
Crispin

Ps. You wanna join my club? I was hard to tell from your posts.

My opinions are are not uneducated. Things can be learned on the street one will never learn in any school. School can teach detachment from emotions. Education can even teach that emotions are ignorant compared to the detached mental assent of a thought process. I know about people that want to walk away from life trauma and git on with life. There will always be those people. I was also looking at the concept that closure is a cop out because of lack of courage. Like I said, I'm entertaining ideas.
The idealized world I wrote was in response to the previous post where you wrote about the hell and guilt perps go through. I'm sure you know our prisons are full of those that don't feel anything close to guilt.
About the concept of forgiveness. I need to make a separation between the mental and the emotional. the two are very different as you know. Much of what you say is forgiveness as being mentally healthy is exactly what I'm questioning. Do people in affect bury their emotions to accept a mental solution to a wrong and is it healthy to not go back to the old days where a victim decrees the punishment?

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

hvacker, my understandings of "forgiveness" is that it is something one does for themselves, not for the other person.
It is an individually internal process, that when done correctly, can be physically felt.
It is not the "letting off the hook", of anothers actions. It is the settlement within ones own mind, that frees him and allows one to not be bound, dictated, and/or controlled by the actions of another. A "letting go of" so to say.
Doesn't mean you forget, but you free yourself of the entanglement that anothers' actions can have upon your own well and better being. And NO, it ain't easy, but does become more so, with practice.

The movie Amish Grace is a good one to watch. Love (Khooba) can overcome a world of sins.

eta: Anger is more damaging to the vessel that it is held within, than it is to the one it is poured out upon.

 

[Crispin]

My opinions are are not uneducated. Things can be learned on the street one will never learn in any school. School can teach detachment from emotions. Education can even teach that emotions are ignorant compared to the detached mental assent of a thought process. I know about people that want to walk away from life trauma and git on with life. There will always be those people. I was also looking at the concept that closure is a cop out because of lack of courage. Like I said, I'm entertaining ideas.
The idealized world I wrote was in response to the previous post where you wrote about the hell and guilt perps go through. I'm sure you know our prisons are full of those that don't feel anything close to guilt.
About the concept of forgiveness. I need to make a separation between the mental and the emotional. the two are very different as you know. Much of what you say is forgiveness as being mentally healthy is exactly what I'm questioning. Do people in affect bury their emotions to accept a mental solution to a wrong and is it healthy to not go back to the old days where a victim decrees the punishment?

Hvacker: I know exactly where you are coming from with this. I agree with a lot of what PTC said. I have some points for further conversation and consideration. I am going to switch over to bullet form for simplicity's sake. Please don't take that as being being rude or disrespectful.
1. I never meant to imply your opinion was uneducated. When we get into this domain I like to clarify for others when I am giving my personal opinion vs. representing what I have been taught and the paradigm I follow.
2. An unfortunate byproduct of school, especially med school and residency is that it leads to detachment from emotion. This is recognized and being addressed in the medical field. The intensity of what physicians deal with on a daily basis has a tendency to lead to detachment or burnout. Either one is bad. Most physicians get into medicine out of a genuine desire to help others. When they graduate on the other side...they are changed forever.
3. Nobody can ever walk away and get on with it after a trauma. Finding closure is another way of saying acceptance for what has happened and the emotions created. There is always pain, but closure lessens it.
4. Closure is not a cop out or lack of courage.
5. Yes, our prisons our full of people without guilt; however, my point was that their lives are thier own rewards. Do you want to be locked up in prison? Also, there are those in prison...whom after many, many years realize the wrongs of what they have done and fall into despair. Either way, most all of them die alone and unloved, with few if anybody caring about their existence. That is the reward I speak of.
6. Forgiveness is not the same as closure, not even close. Many of my patients have found closure with their terrors but will never, ever forgive them...they are right to do so. PTC is right. Forgiveness is done for the individual...not the other party. It can be a salve for a festering wound.
7. Revenge...ie..Wrath, is one of the seven cardinal sins. Ask those who have sought vengance and found it...it is a hollow, empty feeling.
8. People bury their emotions every day. See Freudian defense mechanisms in Wikipedia. I have quite an ellaborate set of defense mechanisms to bury my emotions. You will notice similiar defense mechanisms in Spartacus and Bill.
9. The wicked should be removed from society...that is their punishment. If we still subscribed to an eye for an eye...we would all be blind.

Respectfully,
Crispin

Ps. You should join my list.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

YEP! Let he/she without NASTINESS, cast the first stone (which they DO... in the Middle East). (The "Monties").

 

[0121stockpicker]

YEP! Let he/she without NASTINESS, cast the first stone (which they DO... in the Middle East). (The "Monties").

Stoning is also an extremely common form of punishment right in the good book - and for some fairly minor infractions. I always have my literalist friends read Leviticus with me while I sit tossing a stone in my hand. Most pretty quickly back down - funny how that works. Stuff in there that makes Saudi law look liberal!!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Stoning is also an extremely common form of punishment right in the good book - and for some fairly minor infractions. I always have my literalist friends read Leviticus with me while I sit tossing a stone in my hand. Most pretty quickly back down - funny how that works. Stuff in there that makes Saudi law look liberal!!

LOL! DANG bunch of PINKO COMMIE LIBERALS, they are...

 

[0121stockpicker]

LOL! DANG bunch of PINKO COMMIE LIBERALS, they are...

It's always all relative my friend!!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

It's always all relative my friend!!

It is...

 

[bill from lachine]

cat,

Luba from Montreal has the right idea.....have a listen.

hvacker, my understandings of "forgiveness" is that it is something one does for themselves, not for the other person.
It is an individually internal process, that when done correctly, can be physically felt.
It is not the "letting off the hook", of anothers actions. It is the settlement within ones own mind, that frees him and allows one to not be bound, dictated, and/or controlled by the actions of another. A "letting go of" so to say.
Doesn't mean you forget, but you free yourself of the entanglement that anothers' actions can have upon your own well and better being. And NO, it ain't easy, but does become more so, with practice.

The movie Amish Grace is a good one to watch. Love (Khooba) can overcome a world of sins.

eta: Anger is more damaging to the vessel that it is held within, than it is to the one it is poured out upon.

 

[hvacker]

To Crispin and PTC: I didn't intend to paint with too wide a brush. There are probably saintly among us that do walk in compassion. Buddha Nature. Scarce but none the less among us. A lot of victims seeking justice just seem to get tired. Before long they are talking of closure.
I've come to believe our social systems ignore emotional content. Even hearing of people in therapy socking a pillow and being asked "How does that feel"
Response: It feels like I socked a stupid pillow, dumb a$$" Taking a life shattering event and cooking it down to socking a pillow. Just speculation. I understand part of a therapist's job is to help people cope. I ? effectiveness. We will never know of course as there is no data on therapy. Not like pills.

When the legal system makes a contest out of tragedy. It's amazing to me that more people don't address wrongs by making them personal. How angry are these people when they find no justice? When their options are to "Forgive and forget"? When our religious, social, legal systems deny justice and say "Get over it!" and there seems no way of effective transference.
Maybe like in "Brave New World" we need a soma pill. "A gram in time, saves nine." I think that's how the mantra went.
It was said we start out life with questions and end up with the same ones. I hope I don't sound like a land shark.

 

[bill from lachine]

Folks,

Here's a quote to get everyone thinking......


I, not events, have the power to make me happy or unhappy today. I can choose which it shall be. Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, today, and I'm going to be happy in it.
Groucho Marx

​

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Folks,

Here's a quote to get everyone thinking......


I, not events, have the power to make me happy or unhappy today. I can choose which it shall be. Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, today, and I'm going to be happy in it.
Groucho Marx

​

MARX!!! PINKO COMMIE LIBERAL!!!

 

[bill from lachine]

Crispin,

8. People bury their emotions every day. See Freudian defense mechanisms in Wikipedia. I have quite an elaborate set of defense mechanisms to bury my emotions. You will notice similar defense mechanisms in Spartacus and Bill.

You might have something there.....if someone wants to get inside my head they're going to have to pay an admission fee....lol.

In Spart's case they better leave a trail of breadcrumbs or they'll never find their way back out.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Crispin,

8. People bury their emotions every day. See Freudian defense mechanisms in Wikipedia. I have quite an elaborate set of defense mechanisms to bury my emotions. You will notice similar defense mechanisms in Spartacus and Bill.

You might have something there.....if someone wants to get inside my head they're going to have to pay an admission fee....lol.

In Spart's case they better leave a trail of breadcrumbs or they'll never find their way back out.

Regards + HH

Bill

Too funny Bill!
Never let them get your goat!

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Ohh, double posts, sorry bout that.

 

[bill from lachine]

cat,

Those cats in your head are fighting again and tripping you up....lol

Ohh, double posts, sorry bout that.