florida shipwreck treasure salvage changes.

[LM]

The time to act is now.
Rick Scott, for whatever flaws the man may have, is firmly oriented towards the 'realist-do'er' camp. He is the sort of man who would appreciate the action and results generated by salvors, as opposed to the theories and good intentions squealed by do-nothing academics as a justification for inaction or ineffectual results.

This is the man who said Florida doesn't need any more anthropologists, in regards to paying for peoples education.

If ever there has been a man willing to take a rational, fact based stance on this issue, it is him.
Its an issue just narrow enough that a few smart people coordinated properly could probably get some motion, but I wouldn't wait for someone else to be in office to get it done.

There is a very, very compelling case to be made for our position, one I believe is significantly more grounded in reality than the talking points of academicians. The problem is, we need someone with enough whiskers in the historic salvage world to figurehead the charge.

 

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[Darren in NC]

The right attorney, the right treasure hunter (Fisher family rep), AND MOST IMPORTANT - the right investigative reporter itching to do an expose' will effectively stir the proverbial hornet's nest with the public. It could even catch notice on the national level.

 

[seeker41]

The right attorney, the right treasure hunter (Fisher family rep), AND MOST IMPORTANT - the right investigative reporter itching to do an expose' will effectively stir the proverbial hornet's nest with the public. It could even catch notice on the national level.

exactly!!!! and yes I believe gov scott to be the right person for this! but we need to know and have in place exactly what it is we are trying to do. I started this to gauge any interest and to get the treasure salvage community's input and ideas on what it is we want to accomplish. with any luck we could have legislation in place to be signed by gov scott july 1 2014.

maybe its time to have a meeting/get together to discuss this and get a plan in place? possibly right after the rougher weather sets in and the salvage season is over?

a few things I would like too see changed.....

1. floridas navigable and non navigable waterways opened to detecting and salvage ops.
2. no rules or regulations in regards to the age of an item you are allowed to keep, manmade or fossil.
3. no search permits required.
4. the state needs to place on a ballot and put to a vote any attempt to make an area a sanctuary, state park or preserve.
5. metal detecting and item recovery are allowed on any ocean beach from the toe of the dunes to 150 feet past the low tide mark.
chuck.

 

[Salvor6]

I thought Taffi Fisher and other treasure hunters had a meeting with Rick Scott last year. What happened?

 

[Mekong Mike]

Many new wrecks have been located off the coast of vietnam this year. the government gets everything. The fisherman who find these wrecks normally take what they can quickly before the authorities move in.

I see little difference with florida.

 

[LM]

I thought Taffi Fisher and other treasure hunters had a meeting with Rick Scott last year. What happened?

This is not a personal comment in any way, but the business interests of Taffi Fisher may not be in line with the interests of the public as it pertains to modifying the regulations on historic salvage.

You have to remember that gunmaker Bill Ruger was instrumental in the 'magazine capacity' restrictions in the 1994 Gun Ban, chiefly because he didn't want to see his highly profitable semi auto Mini 14 ranch rifle get the ax if they went after action type alone. He also always had a standing policy of not selling Mini 14 magazines over 5 rounds to the public, even before there were laws to that effect.

Recently, Bob Taylor of Taylor Guitars took what appeared to be an ethically motivated 'environmental stand' on the use of ebony in his instruments. The rest of the story? The worlds stock of ebony has been virtually exhausted, what remains is mostly in the formed of felled trees that were once rejected due to their lack of the desirable 'jet black' qualities instrument makers want, Bob Taylor has exclusive rights to all those felled logs. His great 'environmental stand' is motivated by anything but environmentalism, but you can bet he upsells it as exactly that.

Russian and Saudi interests are heavily funding American 'environmental' groups who are opposed to fracking. Why? Because fracking lessens our need for oil, which seriously impacts their economy.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that cynicism has its place. We would need to find the right person with the impeccable integrity, with deep, practical experience and driven by a sense of whats right, rather than driven by their own standing business interests.

I don't know who that man or woman is but if we're to ever make headway on this issue, it must be done while Scott is in office, which is something that may have an expiration date.

 

[diverdan]

Leave the laws the way they are now. Pirates don't need laws.

 

[huntsman53]

This initiative needs a lot of people to see this through, a Lawyer or Law Firm that has interests in this due to business dealings with salvors and treasure hunters, a very good Investigative Reporter and the Attoney General of the United States. Prove that the artifacts have been mis-managed, artifacts are missing, artifacts were stolen and/or given out for political or other favors, then you will have all the ammunition needed to force the State to change the Laws and hand over accountability. Also, with the Attorney General of the United States involvement and possible charges, some of the missing artifacts will magically show-up while others can be confiscated. A Petition signed with the required amount of signatures, may also help in getting the Laws changed and an audit of the State's Treasury for the artifacts.


Frank

 

[ScubaFinder]

I think a good candidate to start the legal team would be Biker Lawyer here on TNET. Brad is a great guy and I believe his heart is in the right place. He was instrumental in getting the helmet laws reformed in the state of Florida so he already knows about going after faulty policy, and he's a treasure hunter now to boot!

As a side note, Kyle Kennedy, CEO of Seafarer, Inc. recently went head to head with the B.A.R. and basically won. He had Gov. Scott and the State Attorney General on his side. I don't know all of the details exactly, but Kyle caught the state archaeologists in some sort of mess, it caused people to step down and now Kyle seems to be able to get what he wants as far as permits and leases go. When Judd Laird passed away the Juno Beach lease was handed over to SFRX, a few months later SFRX was given a dig and identify lease at Lantana Beach, and recently a 3rd exploration permit was issued as well. Kyle would make a great adviser for the project, as he has already been in the trenches in Tallahassee and came out smelling like a rose.

I would be glad to help with the effort in any way that I can. I know a lot of people want to light torches and storm the capital, but that would accomplish nothing more than generating bad press and further entrenching the state to hold their position. If we go in with facts based on the financial impact of relic hunting and the loss of tourism under the current rules, the loss of the archaeological record via unrecorded finds, and the FACT that state archaeologists have done less ARCHAEOLOGY in the last 10 years than we have done in the last 10 DAYS, we might get the ear of the governor.

The round table meeting is a good idea, getting input from everyone is important but as we all know when you have an OPEN forum, you get ALL of the crazy over-zealous types and only a few of the focused, logical types. I think to be successful, you need a "board of directors" for the effort made up of logical, practical people. Hear from everyone, but present with only a few who can keep the emotion out of it and stick to the facts and figures that matter to politicians. The second this starts sounding like a witch hunt or a conspiracy theory you will loose the higher ups who can make change happen.

I agree with LM's thoughts too, I love the Fisher's but they will fight for laws that help large salvage companies. I'm not saying Taffi wouldn't help and support us, I think she would. I'm saying i don't think large salvage companies look at this the same way you and I do. I am literally addicted to searching for historical sites, whether shipwrecks, battlegrounds, Native American sites, fossils, meteors anything lost that might be found...I'm looking. I couldn't stop looking if I tried, and under the current rules I am a criminal for following my passion for history and the inherent human desire for exploration, knowledge and discovery. Had I realized how powerful that drive was when I was 18 looking for arrowheads and choosing a path for my studies I would have gotten a degree in archaeology, but I didn't. I don't think I should be punished for that, and that is basically what is happening now.

 

[SADS 669]

I think a good candidate to start the legal team would be Biker Lawyer here on TNET. Brad is a great guy and I believe his heart is in the right place. He was instrumental in getting the helmet laws reformed in the state of Florida so he already knows about going after faulty policy, and he's a treasure hunter now to boot!

As a side note, Kyle Kennedy, CEO of Seafarer, Inc. recently went head to head with the B.A.R. and basically won. He had Gov. Scott and the State Attorney General on his side. I don't know all of the details exactly, but Kyle caught the state archaeologists in some sort of mess, it caused people to step down and now Kyle seems to be able to get what he wants as far as permits and leases go. When Judd Laird passed away the Juno Beach lease was handed over to SFRX, a few months later SFRX was given a dig and identify lease at Lantana Beach, and recently a 3rd exploration permit was issued as well. Kyle would make a great adviser for the project, as he has already been in the trenches in Tallahassee and came out smelling like a rose.

I would be glad to help with the effort in any way that I can. I know a lot of people want to light torches and storm the capital, but that would accomplish nothing more than generating bad press and further entrenching the state to hold their position. If we go in with facts based on the financial impact of relic hunting and the loss of tourism under the current rules, the loss of the archaeological record via unrecorded finds, and the FACT that state archaeologists have done less ARCHAEOLOGY in the last 10 years than we have done in the last 10 DAYS, we might get the ear of the governor.

The round table meeting is a good idea, getting input from everyone is important but as we all know when you have an OPEN forum, you get ALL of the crazy over-zealous types and only a few of the focused, logical types. I think to be successful, you need a "board of directors" for the effort made up of logical, practical people. Hear from everyone, but present with only a few who can keep the emotion out of it and stick to the facts and figures that matter to politicians. The second this starts sounding like a witch hunt or a conspiracy theory you will loose the higher ups who can make change happen.

I agree with LM's thoughts too, I love the Fisher's but they will fight for laws that help large salvage companies. I'm not saying Taffi wouldn't help and support us, I think she would. I'm saying i don't think large salvage companies look at this the same way you and I do. I am literally addicted to searching for historical sites, whether shipwrecks, battlegrounds, Native American sites, fossils, meteors anything lost that might be found...I'm looking. I couldn't stop looking if I tried, and under the current rules I am a criminal for following my passion for history and the inherent human desire for exploration, knowledge and discovery. Had I realized how powerful that drive was when I was 18 looking for arrowheads and choosing a path for my studies I would have gotten a degree in archaeology, but I didn't. I don't think I should be punished for that, and that is basically what is happening now.

Outstanding post!

 

[bikerlawyer]

A couple of years ago I did a FOIA request to the State, after a bit of haggling back and forth and some $ they gave me a CD but the format was so old I couldn't make heads or tales out of it. I'll see if I can find it and give it to Terry or whoever else is a guru and see what it shows.

 

[Jon Phillips]

I've commented on this topic many times on here, on various threads throughout the different forums.

This will probably get long, but bear with me!


I also think the time is right for action on this situation for three reasons.

1. As stated before, Gov. Scott is a business man more than a politician, (It's why you don't see his mug on tv every day), so he is much more likely to listen to reason, and consider a common sense solution...especially if it means more revenue for the state. Revenue from tourism, tax on commerce, revenue from permits, and the state's share of the salvage finds from the pro operations. This is why paid permits for the hobbyist is important...whether it be fossil hunters, artifact collectors, or metal detectorists.

2. With the current bad economy (which hits peoples hobby's more than anything), it will be much easier to sell reform to the state that will impact the economy in a positive manner. Money is the only thing that gets action. They will listen to anyone, and politely tell you they will look into it...but money is the only thing that will get anything changed.

3. With the current interest in metal detecting and treasure hunting, there will be no better time (for a long time anyway) to have a large support group to get the laws changed. For as bad as some of these tv shows are for the hobby, they do bring a lot of new blood into the hobby, and for as bad as that can be in some situations, the one thing it is definitely good for is getting support for change. That is a limited window though...once all those new people realize that there really isn't that many public places to go, or that the state isn't handing out permits to salvage ships, or that they are arresting people for picking up artifacts in the rivers, a lot of them will give up. The dealers and manufacturers are making all kinds of money right now because of these shows, but if the laws don't loosen up, they will lose the repeat customers that want to upgrade their equipment, or add to it for family members, so it is in their best interests to get involved...which brings me to my next point...


Besides good people working for us as mentioned before, we also need support from the manufacturers, and dealers. The antique/classic/performance auto industry has organizations like SEMA, and Performance Racing Industry....PRI has a big show/convention in Orlando every year, and SEMA has a big one in Las Vegas, that is in the news every year. The gun hobbyists have the NRA, and many other groups to support them...It's time that the industries that we support step up and support us!


To get what we want, we are going to have to be smart about it and realize that we aren't going to get everything we ask for, while making those that oppose us have to jump through hoops, and be made accountable.


We need to have about 4 different versions ready for presentation, with the first version being the perfect situation for us, and include the least amount of trouble for the archeologists that oppose us...and a pay raise for the state archys from the money from the permits...nothing will garner support from them more than that.

The fourth version should be the least we would be happy with, and include the accountability by the archys, no pay raise, and the requirement to make reports, engage in field work on the "off limit" sites, and make available the findings in laymans terms to the public, and display the recovered items in an easily accessible place for the public.

The second and third versions should be variations of the first and fourth...that will encourage one and two, and discourage three and four, if you follow my reasoning, but with version four still being better than the current situation. They will counter with leaving things the same, but with enough support that probably wouldn't happen.

They were all up in arms over the fossil permits, but they work just fine for $5 a year...I would pay much more than that for a permit that would allow me to look for artifacts, or metal detect in rivers, or on state land that wasn't a historical park. They will argue things about "disturbing" the river bottoms, but that didn't stop them from dredging, allowing phosphate mining, damming, and straightening the rivers in the past. They will argue about the items "belonging to everyone", but that is easily countered by referring to the successful fossil permit system, and the fact that the sky didn't fall because of it, as well as the fact that logging is allowed on state land, and in river bottoms (nothing more destructive to those two places than logging), and fishing and hunting is allowed on state land. Those logs, and animals "belong to everyone" as well...and are taken with paid permits every year...the logs for profit....

They will say that the isolated finds program, or a permit system will be too expensive to implement because of the recording requirements, but the fossil permit works for $5 a year per person, and there is no reason the IFP, or straight up permit system wouldn't work...especially if it cost more. I would have no problem paying $25 a year or more even, if it got me on sites that are off limits now.

The problem that would occur with putting the formation of a sanctuary, park, or preserve on the ballot for a vote is: It will never be voted down, (if it doesn't require a new tax) as the general public will always think it is a good idea, and never care about our hobby being affected.

There was some talk of a "Citizens Archeology Permit", but I couldn't find one thing on it other than archy blogs saying how it would be the end of the world! I don't know if it was even a real thing or not!

I think if the governor was made aware of exactly how overbearing the current laws are...especially how anyone that picked up a 51 year old penny would have just committed a felony!!, he would be willing to hear some alternatives....just like if he were made aware of all the money and potential share in the riches that allowing new salvage permits would bring...I'm sure he would also consider change.

Remember it is all about money.

If you or I pick up a gopher tortoise, we could get arrested...but construction companies are actually allowed to bulldoze the holes, and crush the gophers...Did you catch that? They aren't required to clear a jobsite of them and relocate them...something one guy with a shovel and a Rubbermaid tub could do in a few minutes...they are allowed to kill them! They are also allowed to build anywhere they want...archeological site or not. There was a housing development near me that dug up Indian remains in the ground clearing...it was a big story for a while...but guess what is on the site now? Yep...houses. Remains were found at the site of Fort Brooke in Tampa during construction of the convention center...they were relocated to the Seminole village where the bingo hall and cigarette shop were....until they needed to expand it into the Hard Rock Casino, and a big parking garage...Where are the remains now? Who knows.... The housing developments are getting closer and closer to me...the woods are disappearing, neighbors used to go to the public hearings to stop it, but they listen to the concerns, then issue the building permits anyway....Money talks!

Until the money is behind us....not much will be accomplished...we need a support organization backed by the industry.

We also need to be realistic in our requests, and understand that nothing is going to be free......

The simple act of making the Governor, or our state representatives aware of the current, ridiculous, laws, could do wonders...I'm sure that they have no idea of the truth, and the "stranglehold" that a few of the state archeologists have on Florida history. Governor Lawton Chiles was mentioned before. When President Clinton first proposed the (useless) "assault weapons ban", Lawton Chiles was all for it....then someone pointed out to him that he had one of the banned guns registered to him (a Ruger Mini-14)....He responded something to the effect of: "That gun?....but that's just a little gun!!". You see...he was clueless as to what he was supporting, and who all it affected...he just believed what he was told.... We need to make sure Gov. Scott has the whole story, and not just what he is told....

 

[theseeker]

A couple of years ago I did a FOIA request to the State, after a bit of haggling back and forth and some $ they gave me a CD but the format was so old I couldn't make heads or tales out of it. I'll see if I can find it and give it to Terry or whoever else is a guru and see what it shows.

Brad, I am a database administrator and have access to lots of different software and applications. If you supply me with a copy of the disk, I will give it my best effort to reformat it into coherent, meaningful output. PM me if you want. Thanks.

Pete

 

[bikerlawyer]

Is this the Pete from the West Coast I met at one of John's treasure hunter parties?

 

[Salvor6]

"Is this the Pete from the West Coast I met at one of John's treasure hunter parties?"

West Coast Pete. One and the same.

 

[LM]

I have what's pretty much the best possible .com domain name for this issue, to give us a bit of wind at our backs (TreasureSalvage.com). I snagged it as a drop a few years back after Capt. Craig Boyd let it expire.

I would make it available to any seriously coordinated effort at no cost. I would be more than willing to search optimize any site, too.

 

[GatorBoy]

Progress! Great offer!

 

[seeker41]

lm, thanks for that offer!!!! I will let you know as things progress if we will need it!

everyone else.............thanks for all the great input and advice!

chuck.

 

[ScubaFinder]

I am a graphic designer with a good background in web site design. I'm a little behind the industry on SEO but if LM can handle that, I would gladly put together a professional looking, easily editable template site. I don't think we would need (nor do i have the time to develop) a custom designed site. Maybe something like a Wix.com template site dressed up with a nice logo and some great graphics. I could whip that up in a few evenings. We could collaborate on the content...it should have pages about how much trash and dangerous objects we remove from public beaches...with a pic of some broken glass, a syringe, etc. aslong with financial and tourism data, a page about how much we help fill in the archaeological record when we can share our finds without fear of prosecution, and so on. Lots to do, but I think developing a site would help us to get all of our ideas and concerns together in one place.

Name ideas? If we decide on that I can get started on a logo.

 

[SADS 669]

I am a graphic designer with a good background in web site design. I'm a little behind the industry on SEO but if LM can handle that, I would gladly put together a professional looking, easily editable template site. I don't think we would need (nor do i have the time to develop) a custom designed site. Maybe something like a Wix.com template site dressed up with a nice logo and some great graphics. I could whip that up in a few evenings. We could collaborate on the content...it should have pages about how much trash and dangerous objects we remove from public beaches...with a pic of some broken glass, a syringe, etc. aslong with financial and tourism data, a page about how much we help fill in the archaeological record when we can share our finds without fear of prosecution, and so on. Lots to do, but I think developing a site would help us to get all of our ideas and concerns together in one place.

Name ideas? If we decide on that I can get started on a logo.

Please post how we can all help with this, site name etc.

Great stuff.........