fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

[ivan salis]

fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

sent info to the state of florida folks "showing" my find of a pre nov 1769 era wreck off of amelia island ---I used several "historical sources" from the 1715 era and a couple of very old and rare sea charts to show that it does indeed exist----and its exact location----they will of course have to "verify" my claim---thats where we are at right now--they are supposed to contact me this up coming week- they were going to come last week while in the area at st augustine checking some other items---but "due to funding cuts-- travel money for "new" projects has been curltailed"----unreal "offical" discovery of a 1715 fleet wreck something thousands of archies and wreck hunters dream of stopped because of budget cuts? -- man I have been sitting on this egg for some time --I would like for it to "hatch" already---

P.S. --when "researching for wreck records and maps " ---these are Ivans rules--- never use only 1 source as the "basis" of stating something offically unless you can "prove" it is indeed 100% correct without a doubt---mistakes could have been made --try very hard for "multiple--sources" (at least 2) 3 is even better from differant counties if possible --same thing goes for maps try to find at least (2) maps by differant makers if you can--- by differant countries is even better if possible---

NOW the fun part begins--- after the "offical" find is disclosed---getting the state to agree to let it be salvaged---its going to be a bear to get the "paperwork" right for this one (location) ----however once I do get it lined up --- I really hope doug pope & the polly L bunch is willing to do it---Ivan

 

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[TreasureTales]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

OK, put my name down for wanting to buy a coin from this wreck. I could have sent money to Mel Fisher when he first started out looking for the Atocha, but I thought it was a joke. So now I'm older and somewhat wiser - - I want a piece of the past. Price is a concern, but it would be so great to own a piece from the 18th century.

Wishing you good luck with the claim verification. Don't forget your friends at TNet when you find the booty.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

but of course TT---Ivan

 

[rgecy]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

Congrats! It sounds like you have done a lot of work. Getting th State to come check out the site is a major step. I hope the wreck proves to be what you expect and you will be able to proceed with excavation.

Good Luck and keep us informed!

Robert

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

yes it isn't easy to "prove" your case with the state --- now I'm waiting--- Ivan

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

[=TreasureTales - I want a piece of the past. Price is a concern, but it would be so great to own a piece from the 18th century.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HI LUV, how about me? I am of the, sniff, past, almost of the 18th century, and really quite cheap, in fact I think that my Tiger would be willing to throw something into the pot..




Ivan go go go, love rich friends hehehehe. Incidentally, I thoroughly agree on cross referencing all data where possible. Isn't it interesting, the Archaeologists can't handle what is being offered to them locally, yet insist that all recoveries / excavations be done only by them?

Tayopa took years to sort out the chaff.

Don Jose de La Mancha.

 

[TreasureTales]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

[=TreasureTales - I want a piece of the past. Price is a concern, but it would be so great to own a piece from the 18th century.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HI LUV, how about me? I am of the, sniff, past and really quite cheap.

Don Jose de La Mancha.

I'd take you in a heartbeat...especially if you had one of ivan's gold coins in your pocket.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

[=TreasureTales
I'd take you in a heartbeat...especially if you had one of ivan's gold coins in your pocket.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Luv, how about a dirty ole gold bar from Tayopa?


Psss't mi amigo Ivan, can you help true love out?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

only a gold coin?---- heck my ex cost me --- 2 kids,10 years of my life, $50,000 in the bank plus a $130,000 home and everything in it ---and its a good thing I'm not the bitter type, or else she could have caused me to be a lonely mean person for the rest of my days--- and I'd never have met "my current good wife"----- Ivan

 

[mariner]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

Congratulations on all your research, but I hope for your sake that this is not a Spanish wreck, because if it is, then Spain will own it, and Florida will have no jurisdiction. That is not to say they will not be prepared to allow it to be salvaged, though if they do it will be a first. If you think it is a Spanish wreck, then I suggest you start some constructive talks with Spain ASAP. If you do decide to approach Spain, they will want you to go through Jim Goold, their Attorney and advisor, in the first place. I have met with him in the past, and he is not as negative as he is often pictured.

Good luck with the project.

Mariner

 

[Peg Leg]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

ivan salis,
I am getting this right.
Any Spanish ship discovered to be before 1750 and is in U.S. waters Spain has no claim to?
BUT if there are traceable artifacts would you still not have to give up a portion of what you recover.
And what happens to the ABANDONED ship rules set by the State of Florida when Spain saies that it never abandoned any of their ships.
Peg Leg

 

[ashleen]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,
....keeping fingers crossed for you!
Good luck

 

[cazar]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

good luck on the court and talking to the states..

and yes I would like a coin also..

respects

 

[mariner]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

I do not remember anything about pre-1750 wrecks in the Juno case, and the 1902 Treaty does not contain any such exception. Can you direct me to some information about this? It could be quite important to meon another project.

Mariner

 

[mariner]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

I have just re-read the findings in the Court of Appeals hearing into the Juno and LaGalga case,and cannot see any refernce to a pre-1750 exclusion, or any reason why Spain would have signed such an agreement, given the Court of Appeal's findings. However, I am sure you have a basis for wht you are saying, and look forward to receiving a pointer in the right direction.

Best wishes,

Mariner

 

[mariner]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

Can you give me any more specific information about this side agreement. I have discussed the issue with both Spain and the US Department of State in relation to a 16th century Spanish wreck with which I am involved,and nobody ever mentioned such an agreement about pre-1750 wrecks. In fact, as far as I can tell, the US Government was gung-ho about Spain claiming ownership of its wrecks in US waters, which was why they intervened in the SeaHunt case in the first place.

I hope you can give me more information about this supposed ageement. It is important to me in two propjects. Otherwise I will ask Jim Goold, Spain's attorney, or perhaps my contacts in the US Department of State. I will personally be very surprised if this agreement does exist.

Mariner

 

[Peg Leg]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,
One little point I want to make here.
Yes when you purchase a house you own EVERYTHING -MAYBE
You must make sure that what is below the ground is part of the deal.
A good number of homes sold the buyer does NOT get the minerial rights which means that you own everything above ground but not what is below ground.
Maybe this is not the right comparsion but many things do not appear as they really might be.
Peg Leg

 

[mariner]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

Thanks for the info you sent me in a PM, but I am afraid you are wrong about the 1763 Treaty of Paris. This was examined in great detail by the Court of Appeals in the 2000 SeaHunt case,because the earlier District Court had ruled that under this Treaty Spain had given up all her possessions,and therefore abandoned LaGalga, just as you argue.

However, the Court of Appeals overturned this finding. They ruled that the treaty covered only the land and the possessions on the land, and not those in the sea or on the seabed. In their published judgement, sections 42 to 56 deal with the 1763 Treaty,and the court ends up ruling that the Treaty did not constitute express abandonment of Spain's shipwrecks. They even produced a letter from the British Government stating this, and as Spain said this as well, the court ruled that a Treaty means whatever the parties to that Treaty say it means.

If I were you, I would get hold of a copy of the SeaHunt findings, (US Court of Appeals, Fourth Circuit, Case N0. 99-2035 and 2036, SeaHunt Inc. v Unidentified Shipwrecked Vessel or Vessels, July 21, 2000) and study them very carefully,and then I would think about how to persuade Spain to let you recover the wreck, which they might if approached in the proper manner.

I am still interested in this supposed side agreement between the US and Spain,under which you say Spain agreed not to pursue any interest in their ships that sank before 1750. Can you tell me where you got this information ? I just cannot see why Spain should have made such an agreement, and it is not consistent with what I know about the stance taken by Bob Blumberg and others in the US Department of State, nor that taken by Jim Goold on behalf of Spain.

I am not trying to be negative,by the way, but helpful. I personally do not think that Florida has any jurisdiction over any Spanish shipwrecks in its waters, precisely because of the Court of Appeals' findings in the SeaHunt case. If you are going to recover this wreck, I believe you will need to get the agreement of Spain, and I hope that you do.

Mariner

 

[scottone928]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

I personally think if Spain was really concerned about these wrecks they would have some sort of ongoing effort to investigate and recover these. This is why if you are a good guy and try to do the right things you get screwed. It is just sad that Spain just sits around and waits for people to find these wrecks and then sends it to court. Unless you have alot of money, there is no way the average person can compete against these lawyers. Ivan I hope you get every last ounce of gold! It just burns me up to see people get the shaft.

 

[rgecy]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

I want to add an interesting note. A while back we had discussed surveying an area that may have been a 1715 wreck. Someone noted, and I do not know this first hand, but I was told that Treasure Salvors Inc. or Mel Fisher's filed an admiralty on all the 1715 wrecks. In other words, if you find it, they technically are entitled to sole possession.

Again, this info is second hand and may not be accurate, but if so, that means anything found and was proved to be one of the 1715 fleet would have to go through the Fishers.

Again, this was told to me and may not be accurate, but definitely something worth looking in to!