🥇 BANNER FIND OF A LIFETIME- South Carolina CONTINENTAL Dragoons

[Patriot Relics]

Hey guys,

While this hobby certainly has its highs and lows, perseverance always seems to pay off. A little over a year ago I got my first Safari and like most my initial finds began modest (lots of iron nails and aluminum pull tabs). Then after months swinging the machine something amazing happened- I found my first British pewter buttons from the Revolutionary War. Matching 3rd and 19th Regiment of Foot pewter buttons. My research proved that the British had landed at the site and with Gheenoe's recent discovery of a 23rd Regiment of Foot button, we can confirm occupation by the 3rd, 19th, and 23rd...tasked with capturing Francis Marion, the famed "Swamp Fox". While the British were unsuccessful in Marion's capture, the British ambush did result in the capture of 67 Continentals.



From this point forward I was hooked on detecting and the history of the Revolutionary War. Tons of research later, multiple remote explorations with Gheenoe78, and a new CTX 3030 proved to make the difference today. My find of a lifetime- an ultra-rare SOUTH CAROLINA DRAGOONS pewter coat button! Given that the site was exclusively occupied by the British, it is possible that this button may have belonged to a continental POW! I also managed an unknown pewter cuff that I suspect to be British. Props to Vino for some excellent programming advice and Gheenoe78 for the ID. I will certainly remember this day for a long while!




Thanks for looking

UPDATE: Given the provenance of the site as a British staging camp, Troiani's updated classification as a loyalist button, and Robert Silverstein's research on the SC light mounted cavalry, it appears the button MAY in fact be attributed to the SC Loyalists. In the interest of full disclosure, significant mystery still surrounds this particular pewter, and ones like it, however I have yet to see another example with a flag aft of the rider. Still my favorite and most rare find to date! Here's a link to learn more from Silverstein's research http://www.georgewashingtoninauguralbuttons.com/1776-1783american-torybritish-crown-loyalist/ For Don Troiani's take, reference the "Loyalist" section in his book Insignia of Independence.

 

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[Iron Patch]

No worries Erik, attributed as a loyalist button by Troiani, verified as such by via Robert Silverstein's research, and validated by the site's provenance. Given the body of evidence and having consulted with many other Tnet members, am confident with the positive ID.

They are just plain wrong, and obviously don't realize how many of these are found in the UK, and I have personally owned at least 6, including a silver tack with the same design. In fact, I am pretty sure I owned the one he shows on his page, as I did and do several other buttons on his site. I have no reason to want to diminish your find, and you can look through any of my other replies for Rev War finds and you will never see anything said with a hint of negativity, but the fact is they are making their judgement without knowing all of the information, and the person who bought my button may have sold it to Robert saying it was dug in SC. That's how the relics world works, and when there's not a clear cut ID it comes down to gathering information and going with what makes sense to you. I'm just adding what you should want to know.


PS: I owned an absolute mint one, probably the best out there and all I could get out of it was $165. Compare that to almost any other Rev war button in the same condition and it's hundreds or even thousands in some cases. So they may give the ID, but they will not put their money behind it because they both know it's speculation.

 

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[Erik in NJ]

This is an interesting thread. So are you saying, Iron Patch, that Troiani's current attribution of "Unidentified Loyalist Button" is incorrect? He is not affiliating it with SC or any Dragoons on either side currently as far as I can tell. I'm not confident that Silverstein is in the same league as Troiani with regard to button ID from the Rev War. Is there a match or matches on the UK Finds database or elsewhere? If so and they were found in the UK it obviously points to a UK manufactured button, but is it attributed to the military there or civilian use (or still unknown)? Thanks for any additional info/pics/links.

 

[Iron Patch]

This is an interesting thread. So are you saying, Iron Patch, that Troiani's current attribution of "Unidentified Loyalist Button" is incorrect? He is not affiliating it with SC or any Dragoons on either side currently as far as I can tell. I'm not confident that Silverstein is in the same league as Troiani with regard to button ID from the Rev War. Is there a match or matches on the UK Finds database or elsewhere? If so and they were found in the UK it obviously points to a UK manufactured button, but is it attributed to the military there or civilian use (or still unknown)? Thanks for any additional info/pics/links.

Yes, that's what I'm telling you, it's British. Unless you believe it's the one type of all Loyalist buttons that somehow made it to Britain after the war to be found by British diggers. If you look around you may find a link to one, but as I said I've owned at least 6 from there.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Just wanted to make sure I understood you--like I said this is a fascinating thread. What are they attributed to if anything in England? Military, civilian, or unidentified? Thanks.

 

[Bass]

Very nice find and congratulations. Great job rescuing it from the elements of time and preserving it for everyone to see

 

[Iron Patch]

Just wanted to make sure I understood you--like I said this is a fascinating thread. What are they attributed to if anything in England? Military, civilian, or unidentified? Thanks.

Never seen an ID anywhere. The Brits who dig em don't really think too much of them, but that is not really a surprise because they tend to have very different interests. I doubt we'll ever know what it is, and in a strange way that's cool too. We find a button here that has been a mystery for over a decade. One of those things that should have an answer, but does not, and many are found.

 

[Patriot Relics]

Never seen an ID anywhere. The Brits who dig em don't really think too much of them, but that is not really a surprise because they tend to have very different interests. I doubt we'll ever know what it is, and in a strange way that's cool too. We find a button here that has been a mystery for over a decade. One of those things that should have an answer, but does not, and many are found.

Hey IP, no doubt that many relics despite extensive research will remain a mystery, case and point the PN reverse benchmark pewter pictured in the first postings. Originally thought to be spanish colonial but increasing found at Southern campaign sites from SC to Georgia. While you are cetainly entitled to your opinion, I believe there is an equally valid case for these mounted rider buttons, as Troiani and Silverstein have stated, being from loyalist cavalry. While I'm sure these Rev buttons will always draw some speculation, I think it adds to the story of these early pewters. Thanks for your continued contributions to the thread.

 

[Erik in NJ]

I would say that the next step would be to try and get some images of the similar or identical "mounted rider buttons" that have been dug in the UK. The UK Detector Finds Database is a good place to start. Maybe IP has some pics of the ones that he has owned as well (he said one was mint--might make a good reference photo). I was registered on the UKDFD but haven't used it in a few years now. I'm trying to re-register. Perhaps one of our English friends can help out with some pics/links.

 

[Vino]

They are just plain wrong, and obviously don't realize how many of these are found in the UK, and I have personally owned at least 6, including a silver tack with the same design. In fact, I am pretty sure I owned the one he shows on his page, as I did and do several other buttons on his site. I have no reason to want to diminish your find, and you can look through any of my other replies for Rev War finds and you will never see anything said with a hint of negativity, but the fact is they are making their judgement without knowing all of the information, and the person who bought my button may have sold it to Robert saying it was dug in SC. That's how the relics world works, and when there's not a clear cut ID it comes down to gathering information and going with what makes sense to you. I'm just adding what you should want to know.


PS: I owned an absolute mint one, probably the best out there and all I could get out of it was $165. Compare that to almost any other Rev war button in the same condition and it's hundreds or even thousands in some cases. So they may give the ID, but they will not put their money behind it because they both know it's speculation.

So what you are saying is you know more then the experts?
Even know you never wrote a book or published anything?
You recover these items and then sell them.

 

[Patriot Relics]

I would say that the next step would be to try and get some images of the similar or identical "mounted rider buttons" that have been dug in the UK. The UK Detector Finds Database is a good place to start. Maybe IP has some pics of the ones that he has owned as well (he said one was mint--might make a good reference photo). I was registered on the UKDFD but haven't used it in a few years now. I'm trying to re-register. Perhaps one of our English friends can help out with some pics/links.

Hey Erik, I have searched extensively but have been unable to find a match outside Troiani/Silverstein's references. If it can in fact proven that these have been recovered across the pond, it would still not be a stretch to acknowledge British manufacture/import by loyalist units lacking organic uniforms. This IS however merely speculation rather those facts put forward by Troiani and Silverstein. The only striking difference between this and known examples is the flag and post aft of the rider, an element missing from all other examples.

 

[Erik in NJ]

I finally got on the UKDFD and was surprised to only see about 50 pewter buttons posted there and none like yours. Have you tried the Portable Antiquities Scheme database? It may be as IP said their focus is a bit different than ours (2000 years vs. 200 ) and that accounts for the relatively small amount of pewter buttons on the UKDFD.

I was wondering what the item aft of the horseman was--I see now it's a flag. Interesting. You're right, I have not seen that on the other examples. That may be key to a more definitive ID. Can you make out any image on the flag at all using a lower powered jeweler's loupe (5X or 6X)? And perhaps some UK members will chime in to help locate an image from "over there."

Also it may help to email Troiani an image of your button. I don't have his email, but I thought some here did.

 

[Patriot Relics]

The flag appears to have a small star in the middle, but I can't be certain. I did email Silverstein with images however would be glad to contact Troiani if anyone has his contact information.

 

[Iron Patch]

So what you are saying is you know more then the experts?
Even know you never wrote a book or published anything?
You recover these items and then sell them.

Yes, for this button I do because I know where they are coming from and they're basing their opinions on data collected after the buttons have come across the pond in modern times, or what has turned up at Colonial sites and just ask yourself how many have you seen posted other than this one. I've known Don for 14 years and I have no problem telling him I think the ID as Loyalist is wrong. Also keep in mind I am in Loyalist country and have dug dozens and dozens of Loyalist button and keep in touch with quite a few guys who have also dug many, and never one of the horse and rider ones. I really don't know what you tell you all, I'm giving you the information, these are found predominately in the UK and that is a fact. Anyway, anyone is free to believe what they want, I have no problem with that at all.

PS: There is other errors in Don's book, at least one he says so himself. Things change, clearly because he moved the button out of the SC section. As for the GW site, it's not perfect either, and there's at least one button on there with an ID that was brutal. If it's still there I think they only suggest that particular ID, and that idea did not come from him, he was copying from the seller where he bought it... and where did this particular button originate... I dug it! Hang around this stuff a bit, you'll see the experts are human too and not perfect. Don knows more in his little finger than I know period, but keep in mind it's not like he spent weeks on this, he just made the best call he could before the book was published. As for Robert, I have no idea what he knows, but seeing that site since its the beginning I think he gets a lot of credit for using other peoples info.. I don't know the man so maybe I'm wrong, but he has a great page and it was about time someone created such a site, and as i said I have buttons on his site. As for your last question I have never dug one, I just bought them.

 

[Vino]

http://www.wetreasures.com/treasures/askmarkparker/200203.htm
Here is what Eastern and Western thinks about the button.

 

[Iron Patch]

Western & Eastern Treasures Magazine - Ask Mark Parker
Here is what Eastern and Western thinks about the button.

Not the same. Like it says that one shows similarities to the Continental light Dragoons. Don in SJ found a nice one about a decade ago. (a genuine CL Dragoons) The Western Eastern one is yet another unknown. It's cool though, and you know it just hit me now but I also have found a misc. similar button. It's lead and hard to make out the detail, but is a horse and rider. I tried to convince Don T. is must be Continental light Dragoons but he wasn't buying it. That was also about a decade ago and probably the year after Don SJ dug the button.

 

[Vino]

Not the same. Like it says that one shows similarities to the Continental light Dragoons. Don in SJ found a nice one about a decade ago. (a genuine CL Dragoons) The Western Eastern one is yet another unknown.

Gotcha!!!

 

[metalev4]

Congrats on a killer button. Nothing like Rev War relics.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Also keep in mind I am in Loyalist country...

I knew there was something I didn't like about you besides your spandex Minelab suit

j/k I think most here appreciate your in depth knowledge of Rev War era buttons (and coins).

The OP would like to get in touch with with Don T. via email--maybe you can hook him up with contact info or can he PM him here? Can't remember if I've seen him post here over the past five or so years.

 

[Iron Patch]

I knew there was something I didn't like about you besides your spandex Minelab suit

j/k I think most here appreciate your in depth knowledge of Rev War era buttons (and coins).

The OP would like to get in touch with with Don T. via email--maybe you can hook him up with contact info or can he PM him here? Can't remember if I've seen him post here over the past five or so years.

Don's email is well known. chainshot@aol.com Don is a member here but doesn't post a lot. Just for the record, I know Don like pretty much everyone else, asking questions, IDs etc..

 

[Patriot Relics]

I'll send Don some pictures and see what his current opinions on the subject are, will post his comments once received!