Facts concerning the Lost Dutchman's mine

[Idahodutch]

IMO, the directions given by Waltz to Holmes and Julia ( indirect Bicknell ) are incomplete and would not lead someone to the LDM spot. They lead to a general area and someone needs to use more aditional info in regards to find the mine/s.

Markmar,
Thank you for getting back on this. IMHO, the Holmes directions gets you through the saddle and to the low ridge above the mine. And Bicknell’s article verified the same ravine below the low ridge, (as you say “general area”). I am thinking that our definition of “general area” may differ in size.

I agree that more information is needed to know exact spot. Hopefully there will be another boots on the ground trip. The focus will be putting some of that other information to the test.

Idahodutch

 

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[Idahodutch]

So, do you believe there were not maps before aerial images in this world?

P.S.

As I wrote, the " other " Waltz's map is for the LDM inclined shaft. If you look at the Julias's map, you will see how the " X " on the map is little away from the three pines in line.
The target ( X ) in Julia's map was the LDM which was an outcrop when Waltz found it. There is buried the big cache of ore which alone in todays money would be about 4-4,5 million dollars worth. But, to find the LDM outcrop someone has to pass near the LDM inclined shaft, so, Julia had to find first the three pines which are beside the shaft in regards to find after the LDM outcrop.
So, that map was made so detailed, to be more easy to find the LDM inclined shaft as first stage.

I just do not believe that Waltz Took the time it would have taken, to make that “other” map.

We do have an example (supposedly) of his sketching skills.
In my opinion, Waltz made the gun site sketch, in the field.
The Waltz map, “other map” was on nicer paper, and looks to be made from a desk, free of debris and grit.
Do you believe Waltz did this from memory?
You know he lived in an adobe house right? No electricity, lost of dust, dirty fingers
Where did he sit for hours upon hours to make a nice clean map?

I just don’t buy it. Put in play other factors, and it’s more like it was made almost 100 years after Waltz was there, in my opinion.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[musician]

@idahodutch Didn't Wayne showed a copy of a map he made from one out of another collection? And he assumed that the map was sold to a collector, a big chance that someone did not sold the original but a copy. Time to draw a map should not have been a problem for Waltz. He lived six months with Julia Thomas. Clean paper and everything else at the bakery? Sure, it could be written by someone else. The style of the language can't show us the author, just that it fits to the time and written dialect of Waltz. With just a few words it is all but sure.

Try to describe and map a route you know already, but you never view from the point of a describer. It can be difficult and you may need more than one try for a map.

Regarding your earlier comment about the Petraschs - I don't know exactly where in Germany they came from. If from Hennersdorf in Saxonia, their spoken dialect would contain some sounds similar to the words on the map and the dialect from Baden-Württemberg. But there are more than one village with that name in different regions, even more in the eastern regions of former Germany. Their writing and spelling could be old-fashioned, because it is unlikely that Rhinehart and Herman went to a regular school, where they learned modern german spelling of their time. They left Germany at very young age.

 

[Idahodutch]

@idahodutch Didn't Wayne showed a copy of a map he made from one out of another collection? And he assumed that the map was sold to a collector, a big chance that someone did not sold the original but a copy. Time to draw a map should not have been a problem for Waltz. He lived six months with Julia Thomas. Clean paper and everything else at the bakery? Sure, it could be written by someone else. The style of the language can't show us the author, just that it fits to the time and written dialect of Waltz. With just a few words it is all but sure.

Try to describe and map a route you know already, but you never view from the point of a describer. It can be difficult and you may need more than one try for a map.

Regarding your earlier comment about the Petraschs - I don't know exactly where in Germany they came from. If from Hennersdorf in Saxonia, their spoken dialect would contain some sounds similar to the words on the map and the dialect from Baden-Württemberg. But there are more than one village with that name in different regions, even more in the eastern regions of former Germany. Their writing and spelling could be old-fashioned, because it is unlikely that Rhinehart and Herman went to a regular school, where they learned modern german spelling of their time. They left Germany at very young age.

Hi musician,
We’re talking about different maps.
Sorry for confusion,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Musician,
What Markmar are referring to as the “other map”, is a map titled “ Waltz Map”.
It is an aerial view of the area supposed to contain the LDM.
To do that from memory while back in Phx, is not likely at all in my opinion.
It covers an area ~ a square mile.
Al’s shirt pocket map, is the one with German words.

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Musician,
From what I’ve read, Al Morrow LIVED in the Superstitions, for 19 years.
It was said he was looking for the Peralta mines and LDM, believing that the LDM is one of the Peralta mines.
His search area was in upper Needle Canyon, between SE Blacktop Mesa, and Bluff Springs Mnt.
I can’t say why he carried a map around, or if during those 19 years, why he decided to start a new mine. Did he exhaust everything, finding old Peralta mines but no LDM. Perhaps he was hoping to intersect a big vein?

I don’t know who drew the map that Al had, but as I said prior, I think it was some other Dutch hunter before Al. Maybe a German speaking person. Probably not Waltz as he needed no map.

If someone believes Waltz had such skill as to make the Waltz Map (which is a very tricky map) from memory, you’d need to ask why he couldn’t make a better map for Julia.
I think Waltz tried very hard to convey how to get there to Julia. If he could have given julia something better, I think he would have, but did what he was able to do.

Al died at age of 57, after 19 years living in there. I don’t know what started Al’s search.
Perhaps he obtained the shirt pocket map?

Maybe if Al was able to finish, perhaps he would have intersected the mother load?
Idk

Idahodutch

Ps- The shirt pocket map of Al’s was for someone that already knew how to get into the mountains and get to that marker cactus. This map was not drawn by Waltz for Julia.
Of course, just my opinion.
- the aerial Waltz Map, also not drawn by Waltz for Julia or Holmes for that matter.
It does not say how to get to the starting point, or even say what the starting point is.
If Waltz drew this map, what was the motive. It sure wasn’t for Holmes or Julia.
Then the BIG question, why didn’t the Waltz map show up prior to ~ 1980 ??

 

[Mc4500]

First off Rhiney and Julia both said that they didn't remember all of the directions he gave, and what order he gave them. So in my opinion those directions are suspect. I think everyone takes them as gospel, but there has to be a certain amount of flexibility in the sequence.

Also, someone dying of pneumonia is going to be short of breath and it would be very difficult to carry on a full conversation.

In regards to the map- why would he make one? If he knew exactly where it was why would he need a map? Also if he knew the area well from going there multiple times then he could have made it from memory. I think the maps are suspect as well, but I think they were drawn in conversation. What I mean is that someone drew the map and was explaining it as they made it.

 

[wrmickel1]

First off Rhiney and Julia both said that they didn't remember all of the directions he gave, and what order he gave them. So in my opinion those directions are suspect. I think everyone takes them as gospel, but there has to be a certain amount of flexibility in the sequence.

Also, someone dying of pneumonia is going to be short of breath and it would be very difficult to carry on a full conversation.

In regards to the map- why would he make one? If he knew exactly where it was why would he need a map? Also if he knew the area well from going there multiple times then he could have made it from memory. I think the maps are suspect as well, but I think they were drawn in conversation. What I mean is that someone drew the map and was explaining it as they made it.

You’ll never know the order of the clues or if their even real. So remove the clues and follow Actions of the three it’s well documented. As far as maps drawn by Waltz most likely not real. Julia’s map had a horse drawn on it and the Peralta Stones depict a horse fifty years later. So I would consider that very important clue. Waltz must have seen a horse somewhere.

The doodle by Waltz I say is true �� percent.

Babymick1

 

[Idahodutch]

First off Rhiney and Julia both said that they didn't remember all of the directions he gave, and what order he gave them. So in my opinion those directions are suspect. I think everyone takes them as gospel, but there has to be a certain amount of flexibility in the sequence.

Also, someone dying of pneumonia is going to be short of breath and it would be very difficult to carry on a full conversation.

In regards to the map- why would he make one? If he knew exactly where it was why would he need a map? Also if he knew the area well from going there multiple times then he could have made it from memory. I think the maps are suspect as well, but I think they were drawn in conversation. What I mean is that someone drew the map and was explaining it as they made it.

Good morning Mc4500,
Nice post, and concerning any making of a map. I agree in your view for information from Waltz to Julia. ....conversation and notes. Maybe even her map.

Waltz gave directions to Holmes for coming in from the North.
He gave different directions to Julia for coming in from the South.

The descriptions of the vicinity of the LDM site, from Holmes Manuscript are more easily identifiable, such as the saddle you go through to the low ridge above the mine.
Those directions ARE clues.
If the suspected location of the low ridge above the mine, is confirmed by following the tributary that heads East (Needle Canyon) then things start to get serious.

The only maps I used we’re topo maps. It was not until about a year ago that I recognized that same area being dipicted on a document called Waltz Map. Waltz did not make that map imo. There is no starting point, or reference to a big landmark to be able to know where the map is located in the field.

When I discovered that the map fit the area at the end of Bicknells and Holmes directions, it told me the LDM had been found, worked quietly, and then turned back out for someone else to find, by the manufacture and release of the Waltz Map, and the old claim markers there. I believe there are , or were back in the 1980’s, refilled cashes of Recognizable LDM ore, just waiting for the next guy. That’s my 2 cents and I’m hoping to go back.

How many rocks are we allowed to hike out with?
Probably a double handful at a time, per person.
Unless you are a risk taker.

 

[Idahodutch]

I know we are mostly guys, so maybe that’s why more of us didn’t actually follow the directions?
All we had to do was read and follow the directions.
Maybe we get sidetracked to easily.

It only took me from ~1972 till 2008 to follow the directions. 35+ years.
Typical guy, I guess.

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

For those that have not viewed the area below the low ridge, it is a pretty big area. Treacherous to traverse, and the earthquake late 1880’s no doubt moved/shifted some things.
I hope to get back in there, but can’t say it will definitely happen.
If I do make it, no guarantee on finding cache spots.

I am curious what methods may have been used to replace Waltz’s logs?
Maybe because of it becoming wilderness area, is why the making of the Waltz Map, the center of which seems to be locating cache sites for us. I have yet to apply this information on the site.
If any beat me to it, there are no hard feelings. As I said not very many trips left for this boy.

You all take care. I did what I came to do. No regrets.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Ps- intent was never to piss anybody off, just share my search.

 

[Loke]

Sooo - what would yall do if you find it? It is well within the wilderness area - so ... would you try to smuggle out the ore (bit-by -bit) or is it the fame of the discovery?
Personally, I have never looked for it and never will - but yall are more than welcome.
There are other fish to fry in AZ - none of them as well-known (admittedly).

 

[Doc4261]

Sooo - what would yall do if you find it? It is well within the wilderness area - so ... would you try to smuggle out the ore (bit-by -bit) or is it the fame of the discovery?
Personally, I have never looked for it and never will - but yall are more than welcome.
There are other fish to fry in AZ - none of them as well-known (admittedly).

Rock samples..

 

[Oroblanco]

Sooo - what would yall do if you find it? It is well within the wilderness area - so ... would you try to smuggle out the ore (bit-by -bit) or is it the fame of the discovery?
Personally, I have never looked for it and never will - but yall are more than welcome.
There are other fish to fry in AZ - none of them as well-known (admittedly).

I have an alternate outcome to consider - suppose you find it, by searching or by maps, clues or just dumb luck by accident. And the mine is actually OUTSIDE of the current Wilderness Area boundaries? Do you claim it, and attract loads of attention, or ...? Thanks in advance.

Just a hunch, but I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the mine of Jacob Waltz were to get found and is in sight of a highway or a house etc that was not there when he was mining it.

Please do continue...

 

[azdave35]

I have an alternate outcome to consider - suppose you find it, by searching or by maps, clues or just dumb luck by accident. And the mine is actually OUTSIDE of the current Wilderness Area boundaries? Do you claim it, and attract loads of attention, or ...? Thanks in advance.

Just a hunch, but I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the mine of Jacob Waltz were to get found and is in sight of a highway or a house etc that was not there when he was mining it.

Please do continue...

i think you would be fine by claiming it..as long as you didn't tell ANYONE what you were getting out of it until you have gotten all you want out of it...then go public if you so desire

 

[Loke]

i think you would be fine by claiming it..as long as you didn't tell ANYONE what you were getting out of it until you have gotten all you want out of it...then go public if you so desire

lol - that's like having your cake AND eat it!! Good answer!

 

[Idahodutch]

Roy, IMO Waltz was trading for supplies using alluvial placer gold before found the LDM, both residual placer and inclined shaft.
He was panning for gold just 37,5 yards from the marked Saguaro at SE bend of Black Top Mesa.
This placer was worked in secret by Al Morrow and IMO was the source of his income for all the time he was camping in the Superstitions. Morrow's camp was just over hill from the marked Saguaro and his " mine " IMO was only a cover to distract attention for the real deal. I believe Morrow used his " mine " only as storehouse for goods and so on.
The map Al Morrow had always in his chest pocket, was an original Waltz's map written in German, which depicted the alluvial placer that Waltz was working before heard the sound of the hammer broking quartz at the LDM inclined shaft.
Info about this map you can see at the episode " Chasing legends of the Superstiton Mountains " which aired two weeks ago.
What Edgar Cayce " saw " as the LDM at 37,5 yards N by W from the marked Saguaro, was in reality the alluvial placer that worked Waltz. Cayce was not wrong about the description of the mine, but only for the direction and distance.
So , if someone want to start searching for the LDM, the Waltz's alluvial placer is a good point to start from.

Markmar,
After reading the thread about Herman’s magazine interview, it is too bad he did not find the (as you say), Waltz’s alluvial placer location, or he may have been able to locate the 2nd site location.

Herman said “a mile farther”.
That does seem to put the area North of Black Top Mesa.
Or is that mile distance given by Herman, just part of a “spewl” like others seem to indicate?

Just curious on your thoughts about that
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Markmar,
After reading the thread about Herman’s magazine interview, it is too bad he did not find the (as you say), Waltz’s alluvial placer location, or he may have been able to locate the 2nd site location.

Herman said “a mile farther”.
That does seem to put the area North of Black Top Mesa.
Or is that mile distance given by Herman, just part of a “spewl” like others seem to indicate?

Just curious on your thoughts about that
Idahodutch

You know, that area just North of Black Top Mesa, where Needle Canyon weaves back and forth, there is the ravine facing North, the same ravine that can be reached by following both Bicknell’s article directions from the South, and Holmes Manuscript directions from the North.
Now we have Herman’s magazine interview, that even though Herman never found the LDM, the directions also seem to fit that same ravine in Needle Canyon.

The number of clues that match up at that same ravine are legion.... for they are many
I don’t know, but I’m hoping to make it back to search that ravine.
It is a long shot hope, as my back is really bad. Part of me thinks ..... ok, no problem, just take it easy.
Other part knows how quickly a bad back can become crippling. The middle of the superstitions is not a good spot to find yourself in lots of pain, and cripple to boot.

I would like to see the LDM found, and it seems to me, that the likelihood of this ravine be correct ravine, ... is pretty significant.

I feel like the Lone Ranger here on this ravine ... not tons of feedback about if I’m loony, or way off, ...

Just Dave ..... said if it was there, it would have been found .... I don’t know anyone else that’s been looking at it .... who looked so good, that everyone thinks it can’t be there?

In my opinion, this is a good honest question ..... who searched it good enough, that everybody seems satisfied?

Sincerely
Idahodutch

 

[azdave35]

You know, that area just North of Black Top Mesa, where Needle Canyon weaves back and forth, there is the ravine facing North, the same ravine that can be reached by following both Bicknell’s article directions from the South, and Holmes Manuscript directions from the North.
Now we have Herman’s magazine interview, that even though Herman never found the LDM, the directions also seem to fit that same ravine in Needle Canyon.

The number of clues that match up at that same ravine are legion.... for they are many
I don’t know, but I’m hoping to make it back to search that ravine.
It is a long shot hope, as my back is really bad. Part of me thinks ..... ok, no problem, just take it easy.
Other part knows how quickly a bad back can become crippling. The middle of the superstitions is not a good spot to find yourself in lots of pain, and cripple to boot.

I would like to see the LDM found, and it seems to me, that the likelihood of this ravine be correct ravine, ... is pretty significant.

I feel like the Lone Ranger here on this ravine ... not tons of feedback about if I’m loony, or way off, ...

Just Dave ..... said if it was there, it would have been found .... I don’t know anyone else that’s been looking at it .... who looked so good, that everyone thinks it can’t be there?

In my opinion, this is a good honest question ..... who searched it good enough, that everybody seems satisfied?

Sincerely
Idahodutch

dutch...like i said before...old herman had a spewl that he told the tourist and reporters....he never told them the truth about what he knew .... think about it...would you tell a reporter the real directions to the most famous lost mine on the planet?...in all reality herman never found jack s**t...he had the clues julia and rhiney got from waltz and still never found it...the clues he got fit a thousand places in the supers and i don't think any of the 3 (julia, rhiney and herman ) had enough mountain man in them to be able to interpret what waltz told them...all 3 died broke...there was only one real clue that both herman and brownie was looking for...and that is the rock that looked like a man standing (the clue about the rock shaped like a mans head was b.s.)...they both said if they could find the standing man...then they could find the mine..

 

[Idahodutch]

Dave,
I hear you.... I do.. really

My thoughts have been that either the directions we have been left with,
- are not good enough (for whatever reason)
- or they are, but just not followed as the giver intended.

To search for LDM, I felt it important to exhaust efforts by going on the directions may be enough, especially if combined with clues. If after exhausting efforts, no potential site (steep ravine facing north) then it would be time to go to plan b.
I have not made it to plan b yet. It’s been over 45 years and still on plan A, because they do lead to a potential site.

There are things in the directions that make, like you say, potential for many spots. Coming from south, I figured that to pass by the needle, dropping down into long north /south Canyon, that you had to end up first in East Boulder, then continue north on into Boulder Canyon ... first tributary canyon to the East. ..... look for steep north facing ravine.
The first part .... getting to the tributary, has sidetracked many that did not also account for the north directions.
Coming from the north, ..... you have 1st & 2nd waters ..... well, result is you are heading southwards in a long canyon, that eventually straightens out, to head south.
At that point, you are supposed to see “The Rock Man” clue, and then veer off to the left, as the canyon continues South.
That does match up with Boulder Canyon.

Using those assumptions, they did lead to a ravine .... same ravine as south path.
The north path gives additional information ... above the ravine has to be a low ridge, and a saddle must tie into that same low ridge.
Going through the saddle to the low ridge, you go to the high point of the low ridge,.... look to the north, and can see four peaks, but looks like one peak.
Then, looking down below you, (into the ravine) we are told to go down to the canyon below, but to go around, because too steep to go straight down.
This all fits.

I don’t know why others did not end up at this ravine, other than they made different assumptions.

Point I was asking about, is I have not known Or heard of anyone ever actually searching that ravine, and then crossing it off the list.
Not saying it hasn’t happened, but I suppose I would then probably want to know why .. lol
Coming here to T-net has only revealed more thing that point to same ravine.
To be honest, it’s the kind of thing that really gets to you .... every time something else ... does not cross it off.

I’m ok, just wish I had a good back.