Facts concerning the Lost Dutchman's mine

[Steamboat]

There is a lot of information out there about the LDM, but how much of it is actual fact?
I will list some information I consider to be factual. Others are free to agree or disagree or to add other information they consider to be factual.
1. There was a real person named Jacob Waltz who had rich gold ore and lived in Phoenix.
2. Toward the end of his life Jacob Waltz lived with Julia Thomas.
3. Dick Holmes and another man were with Jacob Waltz when he died.
4. When he died he left almost 50lbs of very rich gold ore.
5. Some of that gold ore was made into a match box which someone in Arizona still has.
6. To this day no one has produced gold ore from a mine that matches the ore in the matchbox.

Now, is it a fact that the gold ore came from the Superstition Mountains?
Is it a fact that the gold ore came from a mine?
Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz tried to tell others where his mine was?
Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz even wanted anyone else to find his mine?

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[somehiker]

There is a lot of information out there about the LDM, but how much of it is actual fact?
I will list some information I consider to be factual. Others are free to agree or disagree or to add other information they consider to be factual.
1. There was a real person named Jacob Waltz who had rich gold ore and lived in Phoenix.
2. Toward the end of his life Jacob Waltz lived with Julia Thomas.
3. Dick Holmes and another man were with Jacob Waltz when he died.
4. When he died he left almost 50lbs of very rich gold ore.
5. Some of that gold ore was made into a match box which someone in Arizona still has.
6. To this day no one has produced gold ore from a mine that matches the ore in the matchbox.

Now, is it a fact that the gold ore came from the Superstition Mountains?
Is it a fact that the gold ore came from a mine?
Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz tried to tell others where his mine was?
Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz even wanted anyone else to find his mine?

Some excellent questions to focus on IMO !

 

[Oroblanco]

There is a lot of information out there about the LDM, but how much of it is actual fact?
I will list some information I consider to be factual. Others are free to agree or disagree or to add other information they consider to be factual.

1. There was a real person named Jacob Waltz who had rich gold ore and lived in Phoenix. -> Yes absolutely, shows in several censuses over the years.

2. Toward the end of his life Jacob Waltz lived with Julia Thomas. -> Yes, after the famous flood of 1891 made his own home unlivable, however there is some debate whether he lived with Julia in her home or in the spare room at her shop. Personally think it was the shop not her home.

3. Dick Holmes and another man were with Jacob Waltz when he died. This is pretty well documented, the other man being Gideon Roberts.

4. When he died he left almost 50lbs of very rich gold ore. -> Dick Holmes stated there was some 44 or 48 pounds in a candle box under the death bed. That Holmes had the ore assayed and sold it to finance his search is documented, and he had some pieces made into jewelry which still exists.

5. Some of that gold ore was made into a match box which someone in Arizona still has. -> Definitely yes.

6. To this day no one has produced gold ore from a mine that matches the ore in the matchbox. ->Personal opinion, one person was SAID to have ore "identical" to that of Jacob Waltz, Walt Gassler. Gassler's son showed it to Tom Kollenborn, whom stated it looked identical, but then years later did not recall saying that. If you can find the old video of Unsolved Mysteries you can see him stating that fact.

Now, is it a fact that the gold ore came from the Superstition Mountains? -> A proven fact, no. However Waltz made a number of trips in the years between 1868 and 1891, and was trailed or attempted to be trailed a number of times. Usually he was able to lose his pursuers in the area around Weavers Needle. Dick Holmes had a different encounter and trailed Waltz to Tortilla Creek where he found Waltz sitting on a rock with a shotgun aimed at Holmes. He did not attempt to trail Waltz again.

Is it a fact that the gold ore came from a mine? -> We can not know for a certainty that the gold ore came from Jacob Waltz's mine because none of us were there. However it is a fact that gold ore always, always has to come from a mine in the first place, whether it was Waltz's mine or a Peralta mine or the infamous Easter Bunny mine. You can not 'make' gold ore, or if you could it would be too difficult to get it right and not worth the cost and effort to do it. So Jacob Waltz's ore very definitely came from a gold mine - SOMEWHERE. More on this point in a bit.

Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz tried to tell others where his mine was? -> According to Julia, Reiney Petrasch and Dick Holmes, indeed Waltz DID try to tell his friends how to find the mine, and the one remaining cache of ore he had not recovered before his demise. More on this in a moment.

Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz even wanted anyone else to find his mine? -> Again we can not KNOW what was in Waltz's mind when he was explaining to his friends how to find the mine. Perhaps he was pulling the greatest mean hoax of all time on the people whom had treated him good in his final days, we just can't know what was in his mind. Which brings me to the point I keep saying will get to in a moment.

Jacob Waltz was a Deutschman, pronounced "doy-tch-man" or German, and to Americans that means "Dutch" man and was born in Germany so certainly spoke German. In his waning years he was known to sell eggs and apparently chickens occasionally as well, and would stop at Julia Thomas's bakery to chat where he found Julia and her adopted son Reiney Petrasch also fluent German speakers. It would have been comforting for an old man with no family living around the area. Holmes is a different story, but Waltz knew Holmes as a tracker and from years spent in the wilderness, so not the same kind of friendship but yet could still be quite close friends.

Waltz pointed to the Superstition mountains and told his friends Julia and Reiney that the mine was there. Prior to his death and after repeated attempts to tell them how to find it, he supposedly made one trip with them both to try to show them exactly where it was. They took a wagon and reached the Verde river crossing the first night. Waltz told them they would be at the mine the next day. He told them to wear their old clothes because it was "very brushy" where the mine is located, but he did not tell them to bring climbing ropes and mountaineering gear. This is an important point for so many Dutch hunters have been clambering up the steepest, highest peaks in the Superstition mountain range, even rappelling down cliffs in the search for the lost mine, but it is totally illogical to look in such places because Waltz did not tell his friends to bring any kind of special gear or equipment, just old clothes that it would not matter if they got ripped up and wrecked in passing through the brush. Plus we have the alleged statement made in a saloon by a younger Waltz that you could "drive an Army pack train over my mine and never see it" which would be impossible if the mine were located on some thousand foot high cliff. The fact that Waltz in his 60s,70s etc was able to travel there and back should also tell us that the terrain is not extremely rough ground.

The Holmes version is slightly different in the way it got passed, for the logic is that Waltz realized that Julia and Reiney would never be able to find the mine, that only someone experienced in the wilderness like Dick Holmes would ever have a chance; that he had already helped Julia and Reiney enough by giving her the money from his personal gold stash to save her business (this is also documented to a degree) and that Holmes was to "do right" by Waltz's sister and Julia as well when he found the mine and cache.

The interesting thing is that Julia started her own 'queer quest' by going to the first canyon on the south side from the west end of the Superstitions, while Holmes raced to Hidden Water and then Tortilla creek, where he had personally trailed Waltz before getting caught at it. Based on their two different approaches, it is apparent that the mine can be reached either from the south or the north. Julia went via the north route on her second attempt, literally passing over the rich gold veins of what became the Goldfield district without knowing it.

The problems begin with these folks, whom of all the people who ever searched for the Lost Dutchman mine, SHOULD have found it, since they had the info directly from Waltz himself. Yet none of them were able to find it.

Unfortunately since Waltz's death and the publication of the story, several other lost mine tales have become interwoven and mixed into the original story, giving us now over 100 different clues, for an impossible gold mine that has an opening "no larger than a barrel" and is a "huge open pit with steps going down" etc. It is gold in white quartz, rose quartz, black quartz, green quartz, rusty quartz and probably several other colors by now as well. Worse, even though we might try to filter out only the info from Holmes and Julia, Holmes went to Julia and they had an in depth comparison of notes right after she had given up on her own quest. So the flawed and unrelated info from other lost mines almost certainly has been getting mixed up from the very beginning!

Sorry for the long winded post there, I am sure many others have very different opinions on these issues. Please do continue.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

1. There was a real person named Jacob Waltz who had rich gold ore and lived in Phoenix. -> Yes absolutely, shows in several censuses over the years.

2. Toward the end of his life Jacob Waltz lived with Julia Thomas. -> Yes, after the famous flood of 1891 made his own home unlivable, however there is some debate whether he lived with Julia in her home or in the spare room at her shop. Personally think it was the shop not her home.

3. Dick Holmes and another man were with Jacob Waltz when he died. This is pretty well documented, the other man being Gideon Roberts.

4. When he died he left almost 50lbs of very rich gold ore. -> Dick Holmes stated there was some 44 or 48 pounds in a candle box under the death bed. That Holmes had the ore assayed and sold it to finance his search is documented, and he had some pieces made into jewelry which still exists.

5. Some of that gold ore was made into a match box which someone in Arizona still has. -> Definitely yes.

6. To this day no one has produced gold ore from a mine that matches the ore in the matchbox. ->Personal opinion, one person was SAID to have ore "identical" to that of Jacob Waltz, Walt Gassler. Gassler's son showed it to Tom Kollenborn, whom stated it looked identical, but then years later did not recall saying that. If you can find the old video of Unsolved Mysteries you can see him stating that fact.

Now, is it a fact that the gold ore came from the Superstition Mountains? -> A proven fact, no. However Waltz made a number of trips in the years between 1868 and 1891, and was trailed or attempted to be trailed a number of times. Usually he was able to lose his pursuers in the area around Weavers Needle. Dick Holmes had a different encounter and trailed Waltz to Tortilla Creek where he found Waltz sitting on a rock with a shotgun aimed at Holmes. He did not attempt to trail Waltz again.

Is it a fact that the gold ore came from a mine? -> We can not know for a certainty that the gold ore came from Jacob Waltz's mine because none of us were there. However it is a fact that gold ore always, always has to come from a mine in the first place, whether it was Waltz's mine or a Peralta mine or the infamous Easter Bunny mine. You can not 'make' gold ore, or if you could it would be too difficult to get it right and not worth the cost and effort to do it. So Jacob Waltz's ore very definitely came from a gold mine - SOMEWHERE. More on this point in a bit.

Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz tried to tell others where his mine was? -> According to Julia, Reiney Petrasch and Dick Holmes, indeed Waltz DID try to tell his friends how to find the mine, and the one remaining cache of ore he had not recovered before his demise. More on this in a moment.

Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz even wanted anyone else to find his mine? -> Again we can not KNOW what was in Waltz's mind when he was explaining to his friends how to find the mine. Perhaps he was pulling the greatest mean hoax of all time on the people whom had treated him good in his final days, we just can't know what was in his mind. Which brings me to the point I keep saying will get to in a moment.

Jacob Waltz was a Deutschman, pronounced "doy-tch-man" or German, and to Americans that means "Dutch" man and was born in Germany so certainly spoke German. In his waning years he was known to sell eggs and apparently chickens occasionally as well, and would stop at Julia Thomas's bakery to chat where he found Julia and her adopted son Reiney Petrasch also fluent German speakers. It would have been comforting for an old man with no family living around the area. Holmes is a different story, but Waltz knew Holmes as a tracker and from years spent in the wilderness, so not the same kind of friendship but yet could still be quite close friends.

Waltz pointed to the Superstition mountains and told his friends Julia and Reiney that the mine was there. Prior to his death and after repeated attempts to tell them how to find it, he supposedly made one trip with them both to try to show them exactly where it was. They took a wagon and reached the Verde river crossing the first night. Waltz told them they would be at the mine the next day. He told them to wear their old clothes because it was "very brushy" where the mine is located, but he did not tell them to bring climbing ropes and mountaineering gear. This is an important point for so many Dutch hunters have been clambering up the steepest, highest peaks in the Superstition mountain range, even rappelling down cliffs in the search for the lost mine, but it is totally illogical to look in such places because Waltz did not tell his friends to bring any kind of special gear or equipment, just old clothes that it would not matter if they got ripped up and wrecked in passing through the brush. Plus we have the alleged statement made in a saloon by a younger Waltz that you could "drive an Army pack train over my mine and never see it" which would be impossible if the mine were located on some thousand foot high cliff. The fact that Waltz in his 60s,70s etc was able to travel there and back should also tell us that the terrain is not extremely rough ground.

The Holmes version is slightly different in the way it got passed, for the logic is that Waltz realized that Julia and Reiney would never be able to find the mine, that only someone experienced in the wilderness like Dick Holmes would ever have a chance; that he had already helped Julia and Reiney enough by giving her the money from his personal gold stash to save her business (this is also documented to a degree) and that Holmes was to "do right" by Waltz's sister and Julia as well when he found the mine and cache.

The interesting thing is that Julia started her own 'queer quest' by going to the first canyon on the south side from the west end of the Superstitions, while Holmes raced to Hidden Water and then Tortilla creek, where he had personally trailed Waltz before getting caught at it. Based on their two different approaches, it is apparent that the mine can be reached either from the south or the north. Julia went via the north route on her second attempt, literally passing over the rich gold veins of what became the Goldfield district without knowing it.

The problems begin with these folks, whom of all the people who ever searched for the Lost Dutchman mine, SHOULD have found it, since they had the info directly from Waltz himself. Yet none of them were able to find it.

Unfortunately since Waltz's death and the publication of the story, several other lost mine tales have become interwoven and mixed into the original story, giving us now over 100 different clues, for an impossible gold mine that has an opening "no larger than a barrel" and is a "huge open pit with steps going down" etc. It is gold in white quartz, rose quartz, black quartz, green quartz, rusty quartz and probably several other colors by now as well. Worse, even though we might try to filter out only the info from Holmes and Julia, Holmes went to Julia and they had an in depth comparison of notes right after she had given up on her own quest. So the flawed and unrelated info from other lost mines almost certainly has been getting mixed up from the very beginning!

Sorry for the long winded post there, I am sure many others have very different opinions on these issues. Please do continue.

This post by Oroblanco should be required reading for anyone beginning to, or continuing to search for the Lost Dutchman gold mine.

 

[Doc4261]

1. There was a real person named Jacob Waltz who had rich gold ore and lived in Phoenix. -> Yes absolutely, shows in several censuses over the years.

2. Toward the end of his life Jacob Waltz lived with Julia Thomas. -> Yes, after the famous flood of 1891 made his own home unlivable, however there is some debate whether he lived with Julia in her home or in the spare room at her shop. Personally think it was the shop not her home.

3. Dick Holmes and another man were with Jacob Waltz when he died. This is pretty well documented, the other man being Gideon Roberts.

4. When he died he left almost 50lbs of very rich gold ore. -> Dick Holmes stated there was some 44 or 48 pounds in a candle box under the death bed. That Holmes had the ore assayed and sold it to finance his search is documented, and he had some pieces made into jewelry which still exists.

5. Some of that gold ore was made into a match box which someone in Arizona still has. -> Definitely yes.

6. To this day no one has produced gold ore from a mine that matches the ore in the matchbox. ->Personal opinion, one person was SAID to have ore "identical" to that of Jacob Waltz, Walt Gassler. Gassler's son showed it to Tom Kollenborn, whom stated it looked identical, but then years later did not recall saying that. If you can find the old video of Unsolved Mysteries you can see him stating that fact.

Now, is it a fact that the gold ore came from the Superstition Mountains? -> A proven fact, no. However Waltz made a number of trips in the years between 1868 and 1891, and was trailed or attempted to be trailed a number of times. Usually he was able to lose his pursuers in the area around Weavers Needle. Dick Holmes had a different encounter and trailed Waltz to Tortilla Creek where he found Waltz sitting on a rock with a shotgun aimed at Holmes. He did not attempt to trail Waltz again.

Is it a fact that the gold ore came from a mine? -> We can not know for a certainty that the gold ore came from Jacob Waltz's mine because none of us were there. However it is a fact that gold ore always, always has to come from a mine in the first place, whether it was Waltz's mine or a Peralta mine or the infamous Easter Bunny mine. You can not 'make' gold ore, or if you could it would be too difficult to get it right and not worth the cost and effort to do it. So Jacob Waltz's ore very definitely came from a gold mine - SOMEWHERE. More on this point in a bit.

Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz tried to tell others where his mine was? -> According to Julia, Reiney Petrasch and Dick Holmes, indeed Waltz DID try to tell his friends how to find the mine, and the one remaining cache of ore he had not recovered before his demise. More on this in a moment.

Is it a fact that Jacob Waltz even wanted anyone else to find his mine? -> Again we can not KNOW what was in Waltz's mind when he was explaining to his friends how to find the mine. Perhaps he was pulling the greatest mean hoax of all time on the people whom had treated him good in his final days, we just can't know what was in his mind. Which brings me to the point I keep saying will get to in a moment.

Jacob Waltz was a Deutschman, pronounced "doy-tch-man" or German, and to Americans that means "Dutch" man and was born in Germany so certainly spoke German. In his waning years he was known to sell eggs and apparently chickens occasionally as well, and would stop at Julia Thomas's bakery to chat where he found Julia and her adopted son Reiney Petrasch also fluent German speakers. It would have been comforting for an old man with no family living around the area. Holmes is a different story, but Waltz knew Holmes as a tracker and from years spent in the wilderness, so not the same kind of friendship but yet could still be quite close friends.

Waltz pointed to the Superstition mountains and told his friends Julia and Reiney that the mine was there. Prior to his death and after repeated attempts to tell them how to find it, he supposedly made one trip with them both to try to show them exactly where it was. They took a wagon and reached the Verde river crossing the first night. Waltz told them they would be at the mine the next day. He told them to wear their old clothes because it was "very brushy" where the mine is located, but he did not tell them to bring climbing ropes and mountaineering gear. This is an important point for so many Dutch hunters have been clambering up the steepest, highest peaks in the Superstition mountain range, even rappelling down cliffs in the search for the lost mine, but it is totally illogical to look in such places because Waltz did not tell his friends to bring any kind of special gear or equipment, just old clothes that it would not matter if they got ripped up and wrecked in passing through the brush. Plus we have the alleged statement made in a saloon by a younger Waltz that you could "drive an Army pack train over my mine and never see it" which would be impossible if the mine were located on some thousand foot high cliff. The fact that Waltz in his 60s,70s etc was able to travel there and back should also tell us that the terrain is not extremely rough ground.

The Holmes version is slightly different in the way it got passed, for the logic is that Waltz realized that Julia and Reiney would never be able to find the mine, that only someone experienced in the wilderness like Dick Holmes would ever have a chance; that he had already helped Julia and Reiney enough by giving her the money from his personal gold stash to save her business (this is also documented to a degree) and that Holmes was to "do right" by Waltz's sister and Julia as well when he found the mine and cache.

The interesting thing is that Julia started her own 'queer quest' by going to the first canyon on the south side from the west end of the Superstitions, while Holmes raced to Hidden Water and then Tortilla creek, where he had personally trailed Waltz before getting caught at it. Based on their two different approaches, it is apparent that the mine can be reached either from the south or the north. Julia went via the north route on her second attempt, literally passing over the rich gold veins of what became the Goldfield district without knowing it.

The problems begin with these folks, whom of all the people who ever searched for the Lost Dutchman mine, SHOULD have found it, since they had the info directly from Waltz himself. Yet none of them were able to find it.

Unfortunately since Waltz's death and the publication of the story, several other lost mine tales have become interwoven and mixed into the original story, giving us now over 100 different clues, for an impossible gold mine that has an opening "no larger than a barrel" and is a "huge open pit with steps going down" etc. It is gold in white quartz, rose quartz, black quartz, green quartz, rusty quartz and probably several other colors by now as well. Worse, even though we might try to filter out only the info from Holmes and Julia, Holmes went to Julia and they had an in depth comparison of notes right after she had given up on her own quest. So the flawed and unrelated info from other lost mines almost certainly has been getting mixed up from the very beginning!

Sorry for the long winded post there, I am sure many others have very different opinions on these issues. Please do continue.

U hit it on the head. Why I went with figuring out maps. Clues are in the back of the head, but not what got me there if I do happen to stumble on it.

U quoted this

The problems begin with these folks, whom of all the people who ever searched for the Lost Dutchman mine, SHOULD have found it, since they had the info directly from Waltz himself. Yet none of them were able to find it.

 

[dowser]

I've heard that he traveled to the Bradshaws, which in his lifetime he probably did. But him pointing to the Superstitions on his deathbed must mean it's there. I dont think anyone has found the mine I uncovered years back in the Bradshaws. I haven't been able to make it back to it. Thats got a barrel size opening. Never been over by the Superstitions yet. So much stuff everywhere..

 

[dowser]

I also heard it was Gold nuggets he had. When talking about rich Gold ore, it must been so rich you could pick out chunks of pure stuff? Did he have a crusher? A solid Gold vein sounds more likely.

 

[deducer]

Now, is it a fact that the gold ore came from the Superstition Mountains? -> A proven fact, no. However Waltz made a number of trips in the years between 1868 and 1891, and was trailed or attempted to be trailed a number of times. Usually he was able to lose his pursuers in the area around Weavers Needle. Dick Holmes had a different encounter and trailed Waltz to Tortilla Creek where he found Waltz sitting on a rock with a shotgun aimed at Holmes. He did not attempt to trail Waltz again.

There is also the episode that when Waltz was observed selling ore to Charlie Myers for $1600, Colonel Poston, George McClarty, and Charlie Brown saw the ore and started asking questions. They eventually ended up tracking Waltz to Whitlow's Ranch on Queen Creek where they promptly lost him going north into the Superstitions.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Matthew for the very kind words.

I should have added a bit more too - like the fact that in the (supposed) single attempt in which Waltz tried to take Julia and Reiney to show them the mine, during the night while camped at the Verde river crossing, he became ill and they had to turn back. He died not long afterwards.

Also IMHO the most important thing Waltz ever told his friends was something Reiney Petrasch remembered, quote


"Reiney, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS!"

Emphasis by me, not in the original but not hard to imagine Waltz putting emphasis on such a statement when apparently Reiney was NOT paying attention to what Waltz was trying to tell him. Julia was not much better and Bicknell wrote that she seemed to be "confused" about the clues she had been given.

Dowser - Waltz definitely was in the Bradshaws prior to moving to his homestead at Phoenix; he is named as a claim owner on several mining claims in the Bradshaws including the Big Rebel for instance. Supposedly Waltz also worked in the gold fields in California prior to coming to Arizona, but unfortunately there are apparently more than one Jacob Waltz in California. The other one is still living there at the same time Waltz is listed on the census for Arizona, so we can not be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Waltz ever was in California at all.

The gold ORE that Waltz had in his possession when he died was clearly a lode mine not a placer; however (supposedly) Waltz was known to sell SMALL quantities of placer gold in various places including Tucson, Phoenix, Florence, and even Tortilla Flat. One source claimed he paid for his supplies at Adams Mill with placer gold dust, but I do not have that book handy and could be in error. All that said, it is possible to hammer rich gold ore and have pieces of gold fall out, which might be called "nuggets" by non-prospectors too.

Please do continue,

 

[Doc4261]

Thank you Matthew for the very kind words.

I should have added a bit more too - like the fact that in the (supposed) single attempt in which Waltz tried to take Julia and Reiney to show them the mine, during the night while camped at the Verde river crossing, he became ill and they had to turn back. He died not long afterwards.

Also IMHO the most important thing Waltz ever told his friends was something Reiney Petrasch remembered, quote


"Reiney, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS!"

Emphasis by me, not in the original but not hard to imagine Waltz putting emphasis on such a statement when apparently Reiney was NOT paying attention to what Waltz was trying to tell him. Julia was not much better and Bicknell wrote that she seemed to be "confused" about the clues she had been given.

Dowser - Waltz definitely was in the Bradshaws prior to moving to his homestead at Phoenix; he is named as a claim owner on several mining claims in the Bradshaws including the Big Rebel for instance. Supposedly Waltz also worked in the gold fields in California prior to coming to Arizona, but unfortunately there are apparently more than one Jacob Waltz in California. The other one is still living there at the same time Waltz is listed on the census for Arizona, so we can not be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Waltz ever was in California at all.

The gold ORE that Waltz had in his possession when he died was clearly a lode mine not a placer; however (supposedly) Waltz was known to sell SMALL quantities of placer gold in various places including Tucson, Phoenix, Florence, and even Tortilla Flat. One source claimed he paid for his supplies at Adams Mill with placer gold dust, but I do not have that book handy and could be in error. All that said, it is possible to hammer rich gold ore and have pieces of gold fall out, which might be called "nuggets" by non-prospectors too.

Please do continue,

I am in agreement with him having nuggets, Imo they came from the red ore next to the quartz vein which I believe he got most his gold.
. I also believe he hid the biggest pieces as not to raise more suspicion. Hense how he was able to store so much in so little time he spent out there supposably as I would suspect most of us would unless to prove something which waltz clearly never had to do as he wasn't searching for something, w all are in some way.

 

[Steamboat]

This has been an excellent discussion. Thanks to everyone.
I am going to suggest something that may or may not be true.
Maybe Jacob Waltz didn't want anyone to ever find his mine. Ben Sublett on his death bed reportedly told his family, "Go find it like I did."
Maybe Jacob told Julia Thomas he was going to take her to his mine to get her to take care of him in his failing health. Maybe the clues were all just made up.
If so, that was a very mean thing to do, but young pretty women have been doing something similar to old wealthy men for a long time.
Maybe Jacob didn't like Dick Holmes and just told him a lot of false clues.
Maybe that's why the clues didn't lead to his source of gold.

 

[markmar]

Thank you Matthew for the very kind words.

I should have added a bit more too - like the fact that in the (supposed) single attempt in which Waltz tried to take Julia and Reiney to show them the mine, during the night while camped at the Verde river crossing, he became ill and they had to turn back. He died not long afterwards.

Also IMHO the most important thing Waltz ever told his friends was something Reiney Petrasch remembered, quote


"Reiney, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS!"

Emphasis by me, not in the original but not hard to imagine Waltz putting emphasis on such a statement when apparently Reiney was NOT paying attention to what Waltz was trying to tell him. Julia was not much better and Bicknell wrote that she seemed to be "confused" about the clues she had been given.

Dowser - Waltz definitely was in the Bradshaws prior to moving to his homestead at Phoenix; he is named as a claim owner on several mining claims in the Bradshaws including the Big Rebel for instance. Supposedly Waltz also worked in the gold fields in California prior to coming to Arizona, but unfortunately there are apparently more than one Jacob Waltz in California. The other one is still living there at the same time Waltz is listed on the census for Arizona, so we can not be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Waltz ever was in California at all.

The gold ORE that Waltz had in his possession when he died was clearly a lode mine not a placer; however (supposedly) Waltz was known to sell SMALL quantities of placer gold in various places including Tucson, Phoenix, Florence, and even Tortilla Flat. One source claimed he paid for his supplies at Adams Mill with placer gold dust, but I do not have that book handy and could be in error. All that said, it is possible to hammer rich gold ore and have pieces of gold fall out, which might be called "nuggets" by non-prospectors too.

Please do continue,

Roy, IMO Waltz was trading for supplies using alluvial placer gold before found the LDM, both residual placer and inclined shaft.
He was panning for gold just 37,5 yards from the marked Saguaro at SE bend of Black Top Mesa.
This placer was worked in secret by Al Morrow and IMO was the source of his income for all the time he was camping in the Superstitions. Morrow's camp was just over hill from the marked Saguaro and his " mine " IMO was only a cover to distract attention for the real deal. I believe Morrow used his " mine " only as storehouse for goods and so on.
The map Al Morrow had always in his chest pocket, was an original Waltz's map written in German, which depicted the alluvial placer that Waltz was working before heard the sound of the hammer broking quartz at the LDM inclined shaft.
Info about this map you can see at the episode " Chasing legends of the Superstiton Mountains " which aired two weeks ago.
What Edgar Cayce " saw " as the LDM at 37,5 yards N by W from the marked Saguaro, was in reality the alluvial placer that worked Waltz. Cayce was not wrong about the description of the mine, but only for the direction and distance.
So , if someone want to start searching for the LDM, the Waltz's alluvial placer is a good point to start from.

 

[musician]

It maybe copied, but the german words on the map seem to be written by a native german speaker and the language points to Baden-Württemberg of the 19th century. I couldn't read all of the words, in some words he spelled the sound of the language, as they've done in former times, different from todays writing.

There is one mistake in writing with "5 dause", which should be "dausend" or "daused", today "Tausend". So on this map, it would be a 5km distance to a "schpitze", not a diameter of 5km. The german word "plaz", today "Platz", doesn't mean placer, if you refer to that detail. It just means place.

 

[Idahodutch]

It maybe copied, but the german words on the map seem to be written by a native german speaker and the language points to Baden-Württemberg of the 19th century. I couldn't read all of the words, in some words he spelled the sound of the language, as they've done in former times, different from todays writing.

There is one mistake in writing with "5 dause", which should be "dausend" or "daused", today "Tausend". So on this map, it would be a 5km distance to a "schpitze", not a diameter of 5km. The german word "plaz", today "Platz", doesn't mean placer, if you refer to that detail. It just means place.

Musician,
I remember hearing about Al Morrow in an accident, back in the early 1970’s. I never heard about the map with German writing being found AND it being folded up and carried In Al’s shirt pocket.
Great feedback on the German writing.


Markmar,
It being in German, is interesting. I question the motive for Al carrying an original around for years while digging and sweating. Just being exposed to elements sometimes during the time Al had it in his pocket, a folded piece of paper. It would be very fortunate indeed, to have survived all that time and still be intact, let alone legible.
The other thing bothering me, is there is not enough information on the map, that would require somebody to carry it with them all the time.

To me, it looks like maybe a German speaking Dutch Hunter was making notes/map of things found, things of interest, for reference?
Maybe Rhiney?

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Roy, IMO Waltz was trading for supplies using alluvial placer gold before found the LDM, both residual placer and inclined shaft.
He was panning for gold just 37,5 yards from the marked Saguaro at SE bend of Black Top Mesa.
This placer was worked in secret by Al Morrow and IMO was the source of his income for all the time he was camping in the Superstitions. Morrow's camp was just over hill from the marked Saguaro and his " mine " IMO was only a cover to distract attention for the real deal. I believe Morrow used his " mine " only as storehouse for goods and so on.
The map Al Morrow had always in his chest pocket, was an original Waltz's map written in German, which depicted the alluvial placer that Waltz was working before heard the sound of the hammer broking quartz at the LDM inclined shaft.
Info about this map you can see at the episode " Chasing legends of the Superstiton Mountains " which aired two weeks ago.
What Edgar Cayce " saw " as the LDM at 37,5 yards N by W from the marked Saguaro, was in reality the alluvial placer that worked Waltz. Cayce was not wrong about the description of the mine, but only for the direction and distance.
So , if someone want to start searching for the LDM, the Waltz's alluvial placer is a good point to start from.

Markmar,
There is a different Waltz Map, that we have discussed, in particular as to who might have made it. You stated a couple of things about that other waltz map;
- that you felt Waltz actually made the map
- and that you recognized the Map to the location in the field.

My question, this is considerable distance between the Field locations. Would you really start with Al’s map?
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
There is a different Waltz Map, that we have discussed, in particular as to who might have made it. You stated a couple of things about that other waltz map;
- that you felt Waltz actually made the map
- and that you recognized the Map to the location in the field.

My question, this is considerable distance between the Field locations. Would you really start with Al’s map?
Idahodutch

Idahodutch

The " other " Waltz map that we have told about, is not for the place you believe the LDM lies, but for another location which I have not revealed yet in the public domain. So, the " field " could be anywhere in the Superstitions and the distance would differ from a theory to another. And yes, I have recognized that map to fit the description of the LDM inclined shaft location.
Why I believe Waltz made that map? Because the characteristics of the map. A modern made map, with a symbol used in mining and a detailed description of the region, which is composed by four different maps that show the region of the mine in a descend manner, from a bigger scale until the mine's spot.
And if I would start from the Waltz placer depicted in Al Morrow map? I believe I have answered to your question in my previous post.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

The " other " Waltz map that we have told about, is not for the place you believe the LDM lies, but for another location which I have not revealed yet in the public domain. So, the " field " could be anywhere in the Superstitions and the distance would differ from a theory to another. And yes, I have recognized that map to fit the description of the LDM inclined shaft location.
Why I believe Waltz made that map? Because the characteristics of the map. A modern made map, with a symbol used in mining and a detailed description of the region, which is composed by four different maps that show the region of the mine in a descend manner, from a bigger scale until the mine's spot.
And if I would start from the Waltz placer depicted in Al Morrow map? I believe I have answered to your question in my previous post.

Markmar,
That is a good response. I do have to ask if someone were to follow the directions from Bicknell’s article AND the directions from Holmes Manuscript; (directions going in from south and North respectively) would following both sets of directions take that person to where you believe the LDM is located? The Saddle, Four Peaks as one.

The junction of the 2 sets of directions appears to be in a short section of Needle Canyon where there is a steep slope facing North.

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

The " other " Waltz map that we have told about, is not for the place you believe the LDM lies, but for another location which I have not revealed yet in the public domain. So, the " field " could be anywhere in the Superstitions and the distance would differ from a theory to another. And yes, I have recognized that map to fit the description of the LDM inclined shaft location.
Why I believe Waltz made that map? Because the characteristics of the map. A modern made map, with a symbol used in mining and a detailed description of the region, which is composed by four different maps that show the region of the mine in a descend manner, from a bigger scale until the mine's spot.
And if I would start from the Waltz placer depicted in Al Morrow map? I believe I have answered to your question in my previous post.

Markmar,
I’ve been biting my lip for months, the reasons you give for why you believe Waltz made that other map, are reason that I believe that Waltz would not have made it. Maybe I has wrong in figuring that Waltz would have needed To be in a helicopter or balloon to acquire the views you speak of.
How are you supposing Waltz got those views?
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
That is a good response. I do have to ask if someone were to follow the directions from Bicknell’s article AND the directions from Holmes Manuscript; (directions going in from south and North respectively) would following both sets of directions take that person to where you believe the LDM is located? The Saddle, Four Peaks as one.

The junction of the 2 sets of directions appears to be in a short section of Needle Canyon where there is a steep slope facing North.

Idahodutch

IMO, the directions given by Waltz to Holmes and Julia ( indirect Bicknell ) are incomplete and would not lead someone to the LDM spot. They lead to a general area and someone needs to use more aditional info in regards to find the mine/s.

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
I’ve been biting my lip for months, the reasons you give for why you believe Waltz made that other map, are reason that I believe that Waltz would not have made it. Maybe I has wrong in figuring that Waltz would have needed To be in a helicopter or balloon to acquire the views you speak of.
How are you supposing Waltz got those views?
Idahodutch

So, do you believe there were not maps before aerial images in this world?

P.S.

As I wrote, the " other " Waltz's map is for the LDM inclined shaft. If you look at the Julias's map, you will see how the " X " on the map is little away from the three pines in line.
The target ( X ) in Julia's map was the LDM which was an outcrop when Waltz found it. There is buried the big cache of ore which alone in todays money would be about 4-4,5 million dollars worth. But, to find the LDM outcrop someone has to pass near the LDM inclined shaft, so, Julia had to find first the three pines which are beside the shaft in regards to find after the LDM outcrop.
So, that map was made so detailed, to be more easy to find the LDM inclined shaft as first stage.