Expected types of clues

lokiblossom said:
There are several good histories that have been written on the Knights Templar, one I personally recommend is Charles Addison's 'History of the Knights Templar'.

According to another very good Templar historian, Edward Zaborovsky, there were probably a minimum of 3,000 of the orders members in France at the time of the arrests (13 Oct.1307), France, of course having the largest contingent. "the survived records of interrogations cast some light on the destiny of a little bit more than 600 brothers, and what happened to the others remains totally unknown to us" Zaborovsky.

Cheers, Loki
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Yes, I have heard up to 7000 in France and I will say that after the burning of De Molay it was claimed that people were sifting through the ashes but my belief was that Templar's were collecting the ashes of De Molay. Look at the "Shepherds of Arcadia Monument" At Shugsborough Hall in Stafordshire England.
200px-Shugborough_arcadia.jpg


Look on top of the Tomb, there is a vessel which I believe is a for lack of better words, a Urn. And what are the "Shepherds" pointing to? It's not just the letters, they are pointing to the "Stone Carving". The true "Shepherds of Arcadia" are the stone carvings that guide you.
 

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treasure1822 said:
Wrong corn there slick....Try this....
corn.jpg


When Rosslyn Chapel was founded, it was almost 50 years before Columbus and 148 years after Sinclair. So I would imagine he was carving from someone elses rendition of a ear of corn.....so I would imagine some leeway on "Quality".
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... or it just isn't corn. You are really stretching here to find some meaning to these carvings.
 

Smithbrown said:
can I just check that both LokiBlossom and treasure1822 have seen the sculptures at Roslin?
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I have seen photos of the sculptures at Roslin, but I have never had much interest in them. If you are asking me if I see corn, I don't know.
I do know the website for Roslin Chapel describes it as corn, for whatever that is worth.
Cheers, Loki
 

Raparee said:
... or it just isn't corn. You are really stretching here to find some meaning to these carvings.
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"Stretching"...Not at all, Think about it this way, at the beginning of the renaissance period the "Average" rate of literacy was 5 to 10 percent. Haven't you heard the old expression, "A picture is worth a 1000 words".
 

Smithbrown said:
can I just check that both LokiBlossom and treasure1822 have seen the sculptures at Roslin?
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I have not had the opportunity to go there but like Lokiblossom I have viewed hundreds of photo's of the interior and exterior of Rosslyn Chapel as also the Shepherd of Arcadia monument at Shugborough Hall. They were very helpful and actually sent one of the workers to the monument and took detailed photo's for me. What amazes me is the people don't believe that there is anything to the carving at Rosslyn but they don't question the very "Symbol" that the order wore. "The symbol of Christianity".
 

Smithbrown said:
can I just check that both LokiBlossom and treasure1822 have seen the sculptures at Roslin?
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I have to question your asking if either Loki or I had been to Rosslyn, what would it matter? Are you saying that a person is unable to make a valued observation based on a "Photo"? I would hope that you are not suggesting that because just as I base some of my opinions on visual observation, so do you. You see, as I look at the photo I see an interpretation of someone rendition of "corn". Your saying it's not....Well, does that mean your unable to make a argument based on the same visual observation of a photo?
 

Smithbrown said:
can I just check that both LokiBlossom and treasure1822 have seen the sculptures at Roslin?
Click to expand...


I'm repeating this answer Smithbrown because I think it may have been buried.

I have seen photos of the sculptures, but I have never had much interest in them. If you are asking me if I see corn, I don't know.
I do know the website for Roslin Chapel describes it as corn, for whatever that is worth.
Cheers, Loki
 

Sorry but I have to answer the questions....As for people saying I don't know what they see, it's not a "Rorschach Test".
 

So neither of you have actually visited Roslin. It has really nothing to do with whether you see corn or not see corn. I was actually responding to Lokiblossom's melodramatic Whoa. No I do not think that the carving is amateurish- it is perfectly competent - but I do think it is pedestrian. The carvings never break free from the stone as really great sculpture does. Much is this is not visible in photographs. The chapel and its carving were restored in the 19th century when it was re-roofed and a lot of these differences are not detectable in photographs either. if you have a serious interest in art history, you should know that is always better to go back to the object and that photographs are always second best. A three dimensional object can be very difficult to interpret though two dimensions.
No I don't see corn. I don't really see a realistic representation of a plant. Now, Treasure1822, if you have never been to Roslin, I wonder what your knowledge of European botany is like that you can rule out all European plants? (Actually I think it bears a good resemblance to stinking iris Iris foetidissima (Stinking iris) (C) Evelyn Simak :: Geograph Britain and Ireland ).
 

Smithbrown said:
So neither of you have actually visited Roslin. It has really nothing to do with whether you see corn or not see corn. I was actually responding to Lokiblossom's melodramatic Whoa. No I do not think that the carving is amateurish- it is perfectly competent - but I do think it is pedestrian. The carvings never break free from the stone as really great sculpture does. Much is this is not visible in photographs. The chapel and its carving were restored in the 19th century when it was re-roofed and a lot of these differences are not detectable in photographs either. if you have a serious interest in art history, you should know that is always better to go back to the object and that photographs are always second best. A three dimensional object can be very difficult to interpret though two dimensions.
No I don't see corn. I don't really see a realistic representation of a plant. Now, Treasure1822, if you have never been to Roslin, I wonder what your knowledge of European botany is like that you can rule out all European plants? (Actually I think it bears a good resemblance to stinking iris Iris foetidissima (Stinking iris) (C) Evelyn Simak :: Geograph Britain and Ireland ).
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Well, first off I got to tell you....I am blind in my left eye so the world of 3D really means nothing to me. If your talking about qualities comparable to say Da Vinci or Michelangelo those are classes all by themselves. If the quality was to their standard it wouldn't be in Rosslyn, it would be in the Louvre.





I don't know....I'm still leaning towards corn....and I'm using my good eye incase your wondering.....
 

Smithbrown said:
So neither of you have actually visited Roslin. It has really nothing to do with whether you see corn or not see corn. I was actually responding to Lokiblossom's melodramatic Whoa.
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Do you actually read these posts? If you did I think you would find I did not write "the melodramatic Whoa". To tell the truth I don't have a dog in this Roslin fight (I should say argument but it doesn't seem to fit), I was only attempting to bury the hatchet with you, so to speak. I have never said that the supposed carvings of maize look like corn.

The one thing I did mention is that the 'Roslin Chapels' website does call it corn. To me that doesn't mean anything btw.

Cheers, Loki
 

I am the "Melodramatic" thanks...

The problem is that any idea that is stated on these forums is like doping a piece of raw meat into the theoretical Parana tank. I have seen new members who would like to join into the conversation to possibly learn different theories get beat down by seasoned member and they just don't come back. I put opinions on and the first thing that I am hit with is usually the critiquing, then the argument with no supporting evidence. The level of condescension is unreal on this forum and even more I have become a product of my environment. You have to fight just to get someone to say the words "It's Possible". I don't have to be right, but is it possible? Do any of you support the notion that the Templar's became the Freemasons? A very simple concept, not hard to answer?
 

treasure1822 said:
I am the "Melodramatic" thanks...

The problem is that any idea that is stated on these forums is like doping a piece of raw meat into the theoretical Parana tank. I have seen new members who would like to join into the conversation to possibly learn different theories get beat down by seasoned member and they just don't come back. I put opinions on and the first thing that I am hit with is usually the critiquing, then the argument with no supporting evidence. The level of condescension is unreal on this forum and even more I have become a product of my environment. You have to fight just to get someone to say the words "It's Possible". I don't have to be right, but is it possible? Do any of you support the notion that the Templar's became the Freemasons? A very simple concept, not hard to answer?
Click to expand...

IMHO, some Templars who had and who had not been operative Stone Masons, sometime after the period of arrests of 1307 began to meet as members of a stone masons guild in Scotland. This evolved over a hundred years or so into something akin to the Freemasons. I do have a copy of an early document from I think the 15th century (I'll have to look it up) that although not actually Freemasonary is very similar in nature. Also IMHO, this in no way involved all of the Templars many of whom slipped into other orders.
My own premises of Templars sailing to Nova Scotia only involved those of the Inner Circle with Gerard de Villiers as their leader.

So, yes I do support the notion (although a little modified) that some Templars became Freemasons.

Cheers, Loki
 

lokiblossom said:
IMHO, some Templars who had and who had not been operative Stone Masons, sometime after the period of arrests of 1307 began to meet as members of a stone masons guild in Scotland. This evolved over a hundred years or so into something akin to the Freemasons. I do have a copy of an early document from I think the 15th century (I'll have to look it up) that although not actually Freemasonary is very similar in nature. Also IMHO, this in no way involved all of the Templars many of whom slipped into other orders.
My own premises of Templars sailing to Nova Scotia only involved those of the Inner Circle with Gerard de Villiers as their leader.

So, yes I do support the notion (although a little modified) that some Templars became Freemasons.

Cheers, Loki
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Can I ask what you think there reason was for coming to the New World? Was it to evade persecution or do you think it was more?
 

treasure1822 said:
Can I ask what you think there reason was for coming to the New World? Was it to evade persecution or do you think it was more?
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No, it was not simply to evade persecution. They had something the Church wanted, but also they may have had some treasures. There is documentation that de Molay had left Cyprus to meet with the Pope in France in the early spring of 1307 with 150,000 florins of gold and there is also the missing treasures of their Paris headquarters.
If you are interested and get the chance read about Montsegur Castle and the Cathars.

Cheers, Loki
 

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