Expected types of clues

[lokiblossom]

I didn't say "wasted efforts looking for something that no longer exists." I maintain it never existed to begin with. It's just a natural depression. No treasure.

Certainly not Templar. At least not on this side of the Atlantic. Might they have cached what they felt to be holy relics? Sure. In Europe.

In Europe, where, as far as they knew they would be hunted down like deer? Cache relics that could harm the Church in the Church's backyard? I don't think so. Certainly even at this only a selected few would actually cross the Atlantic, a little known inner circle. All secret organizations do have an inner circle, do they not? And please tell me why you think they could not have crossed this ocean. Were their ships not capable? Maybe they couldn't carry enough water? Perhaps Templar sailors did not have enough over water experience? Or?
I'm not saying you have to agree, only that you explain why you are so certain it didn't happen.
Cheers, Loki

 

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[Charlie P. (NY)]

Because it involves too many preposterous assumptions that have to align for it to have likely actually occurred. That and the total lack of physical evidence.

 

[lokiblossom]

Because it involves too many preposterous assumptions that have to align for it to have likely actually occurred. That and the total lack of physical evidence.

Hmm, for the sake of discussion perhaps you could list some of these preposterous assumptions. Btw, you could leave out any Oak Island connection as I don't really have a dog in that fight.

 

[treasure1822]

I didn't say "wasted efforts looking for something that no longer exists." I maintain it never existed to begin with. It's just a natural depression. No treasure.

Certainly not Templar. At least not on this side of the Atlantic. Might they have cached what they felt to be holy relics? Sure. In Europe.

Okay, you say "natural depression with a imaginary treasure" fine. I am saying, "Naturally formed hole in the earth that had 9 levels of Oak timbers added to it 10 feet apart and dirt in between plus flat flag stone added to the top to give the vague Representation of Enoch's Vault". Not to mention a notch worn into a branch that over hung the pit and purposely left there for identification. Not to mention a stone slab with marking placed at 9th platform to entice the seeker to dig past the the platform to guarantee the opening of the flood tunnel. To me if there was no "Treasure" at all, would you move over 23 cubic yards of earth to back fill that hole. I can throw a scenario at you and I do understand it has a lot of "IF'S". When the Templar's were capture by the King of France and tortured until they state that they were in "League with Lucifer". That pretty much decided the fate of the Templar's in Europe. They really had only two choices, leave Europe or hide and I believe that they had done both. No one could be sure of what the King of France had found out from the tortured souls, so some deemed it safe to travel to the new world where others decided to remake the order into a secretive society in Europe. It very well could have been that the Templar's that came here were of noble blood and the one's chosen to guard the "treasure", weather it was gold/silver/Jewels/Religious artifact who know's. But seeing how there was too many unknowns in the favor of France "Chances" could not be afforded. I do believe that the "Sinclair" family had a lot to do with it and that even before Sir Henry.

 

[treasure1822]

Okay, you say "natural depression with a imaginary treasure" fine. I am saying, "Naturally formed hole in the earth that had 9 levels of Oak timbers added to it 10 feet apart and dirt in between plus flat flag stone added to the top to give the vague Representation of Enoch's Vault". Not to mention a notch worn into a branch that over hung the pit and purposely left there for identification. Not to mention a stone slab with marking placed at 9th platform to entice the seeker to dig past the the platform to guarantee the opening of the flood tunnel. To me if there was no "Treasure" at all, would you move over 23 cubic yards of earth to back fill that hole. I can throw a scenario at you and I do understand it has a lot of "IF'S". When the Templar's were capture by the King of France and tortured until they state that they were in "League with Lucifer". That pretty much decided the fate of the Templar's in Europe. They really had only two choices, leave Europe or hide and I believe that they had done both. No one could be sure of what the King of France had found out from the tortured souls, so some deemed it safe to travel to the new world where others decided to remake the order into a secretive society in Europe. It very well could have been that the Templar's that came here were of noble blood and the one's chosen to guard the "treasure", weather it was gold/silver/Jewels/Religious artifact who know's. But seeing how there was too many unknowns in the favor of France "Chances" could not be afforded. I do believe that the "Sinclair" family had a lot to do with it and that even before Sir Henry.

I'm terribly sorry, I miss spoke 545.677 cubic yards of earth....

 

[treasure1822]

Okay, you say "natural depression with a imaginary treasure" fine. I am saying, "Naturally formed hole in the earth that had 9 levels of Oak timbers added to it 10 feet apart and dirt in between plus flat flag stone added to the top to give the vague Representation of Enoch's Vault". Not to mention a notch worn into a branch that over hung the pit and purposely left there for identification. Not to mention a stone slab with marking placed at 9th platform to entice the seeker to dig past the the platform to guarantee the opening of the flood tunnel. To me if there was no "Treasure" at all, would you move over 23 cubic yards of earth to back fill that hole. I can throw a scenario at you and I do understand it has a lot of "IF'S". When the Templar's were capture by the King of France and tortured until they state that they were in "League with Lucifer". That pretty much decided the fate of the Templar's in Europe. They really had only two choices, leave Europe or hide and I believe that they had done both. No one could be sure of what the King of France had found out from the tortured souls, so some deemed it safe to travel to the new world where others decided to remake the order into a secretive society in Europe. It very well could have been that the Templar's that came here were of noble blood and the one's chosen to guard the "treasure", weather it was gold/silver/Jewels/Religious artifact who know's. But seeing how there was too many unknowns in the favor of France "Chances" could not be afforded. I do believe that the "Sinclair" family had a lot to do with it and that even before Sir Henry.

Sorry again but I still didn't state the reason for the "Pit". There is no treasure in it, the Templar's just wanted "whom ever" and my guess would be the King of France if he ever sought to follow to focus their attention on that hole. To waste every bit of time and resource on it trying to get to the bottom of a figurative "Bottomless pit".

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Hmm, for the sake of discussion perhaps you could list some of these preposterous assumptions. Btw, you could leave out any Oak Island connection as I don't really have a dog in that fight.

Why would I leave out Oak Island on an Oak Island sub-forum thread? That violates website policy.

But here goes; Assumptions/Postulates:

Templers had portable and durable treasure.

Templers defied Papal order to turn everything over the the Hospitaliers.

Templar treasure escaped seizure by King Philip IV or Pope Clement V.

Templers crossed Atlantic.

Templers, who if they knew of the N.A. Continent, possibly also new the Norse settlement(s) had been wiped out by hostiles not far off.

Templars left no physical signs of "European" origin or culture while constructing/digging/excavating/interring.

Templars would have ignored all existing ties to the connections they had established on the routes to and from the Holy Land as safe havens in preference of unknown territory that the Pope had promised to Spain.

{Oak Island was their destination. - also a postulate}

{Hole was found or dug and made accessible to a depth of over 180 feet surrounded closely the waters of a bay.}

{Templers decided to entomb treasures there.}

And to Treasure1822 - the "clue" of a groove worn in a branch that was reported in 1795 was likely not left in the early 1300's to "fool" someone thousands of miles away in Europe.

The timbers and stone - all missing and initially reported in foggy circumstances - were likely haphazard inclusions from flooding that occurred naturally in a glacial sink-hole. The stone, if it ever existed, was likely conveniently "found" (and lost) to encourage investment.

 

[treasure1822]

OMG! I know why the "Money Pit" is there. I said the "Money Pit" has similarities to "Enoch's vault, the nine levels, the stones covering it..but why the water? Think about it, a continually flooding hole that makes it impossible to get to the Bottom. In the Book of Enoch", he was taken to the end of the world where he found a "Bottomless Pit". He was told by the angels that it was where the "Fallen Angels and sinners" were kept. If the Money Pit was made to resemble "Enoch's Vault" and someone was trying to get to the 9th vault or the bottom vault they would be motivated by their "Greed", the first "Deadly Sin".

[h=1]Proverbs 28:25English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]25 A greedy man stirs up strife,
but the one who trusts in the Lord will be enriched.

 

[treasure1822]

Why would I leave out Oak Island on an Oak Island sub-forum thread? That violates website policy.

But here goes; Assumptions/Postulates:

Templers had portable and durable treasure.

Templers defied Papal order to turn everything over the the Hospitaliers.

Templar treasure escaped seizure by King Philip IV or Pope Clement V.

Templers crossed Atlantic.

Templers, who if they knew of the N.A. Continent, possibly also new the Norse settlement(s) had been wiped out by hostiles not far off.

Templars left no physical signs of "European" origin or culture while constructing/digging/excavating/interring.

Templars would have ignored all existing ties to the connections they had established on the routes to and from the Holy Land as safe havens in preference of unknown territory that the Pope had promised to Spain.

{Oak Island was their destination. - also a postulate}

{Hole was found or dug and made accessible to a depth of over 180 feet surrounded closely the waters of a bay.}

{Templers decided to entomb treasures there.}

And to Treasure1822 - the "clue" of a groove worn in a branch that was reported in 1795 was likely not left in the early 1300's to "fool" someone thousands of miles away in Europe.

The timbers and stone - all missing and initially reported in foggy circumstances - were likely haphazard inclusions from flooding that occurred naturally in a glacial sink-hole. The stone, if it ever existed, was likely conveniently "found" (and lost) to encourage investment.

Here is a couple of thing's that are supposedly true:

"And to Treasure1822 - the "clue" of a groove worn in a branch that was reported in 1795 was likely not left in the early 1300's to "fool" someone thousands of miles away in Europe."

and I say, "Not without really good EYESIGHT!!!"

1) DeMolay and the other Templar's held by the King of France were tortured into admitting the were in league with the Devil. And I don't mean just them, it had discredited all of the Templar's.
2) The only thing the King of France got was Templar Land and he did not have to pay back what he owed.
3) You have to remember that in 1795 til the mid-1800's there was no Archaeology, and Science was more for the wealthy with curious nature.
4) You keep implying no one followed them, but because someone didn't write it down doesn't mean it didn't happen. The more logical assumption is they would have and I believe they counted on it.

 

[treasure1822]

Because it involves too many preposterous assumptions that have to align for it to have likely actually occurred. That and the total lack of physical evidence.

You say my "Theories" are "Preposterous Assumptions", so may I ask to see the factual evidence that you have obtained from "Credible" sources. The thing is my theories are very plausible.....

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Factual evidence of what? That no Templar treasure exists in North America? I'd have to turn over every square foot of soil and then you'd just claim I didn't go deep enough. You can't prove something didn't happen. You can only prove it did. And since I don't think it did . . . the ball's in your court.

There is no way to prove Elvis didn't travel in time to hunt dinosaurs after being abducted by aliens. But if we find a fossilized sequined platform shoe in a rock quarry it becomes more feasible.

 

[treasure1822]

Factual evidence of what? That no Templar treasure exists in North America? I'd have to turn over every square foot of soil and then you'd just claim I didn't go deep enough. You can't prove something didn't happen. You can only prove it did. And since I don't think it did . . . the ball's in your court.

There is no way to prove Elvis didn't travel in time to hunt dinosaurs after being abducted by aliens. But if we find a fossilized sequined platform shoe in a rock quarry it becomes more feasible.

Oh, you can prove something didn't happen, just produce something to prove the contrary. Just show where Phillip, or Pope Clement or any body had taken anything away from the templars that wasn't land.
Hey, and as for Elvis, I'm still waiting....hahaha

 

[lokiblossom]

Why would I leave out Oak Island on an Oak Island sub-forum thread? That violates website policy.

But here goes; Assumptions/Postulates:

Templers had portable and durable treasure.

Templers defied Papal order to turn everything over the the Hospitaliers.

Templar treasure escaped seizure by King Philip IV or Pope Clement V.

Templers crossed Atlantic.

Templers, who if they knew of the N.A. Continent, possibly also new the Norse settlement(s) had been wiped out by hostiles not far off.

Templars left no physical signs of "European" origin or culture while constructing/digging/excavating/interring.

Templars would have ignored all existing ties to the connections they had established on the routes to and from the Holy Land as safe havens in preference of unknown territory that the Pope had promised to Spain.

1; There is documented evidence that de Molay left Cyprus with a large amount of treasure (160,000 gold florins and a cache of silver) shortly before the arrest order went out.
2; They did not turn anything over to the Hospitaliers. The Pope gave the Hospital their property after their disbandment.
3; The Templar treasure from Cyprus was never seen by Philip or the Pope. There is also documentation that they had a great amount of treasure in Paris that has never been accounted for.
4; There is testimony that the Templars knew of the impending arrests and many in France escaped and Gerard de Villers left port with 18 vessels never to be heard from again. If you can show where all these vessels went (document) I will drop my premises. of course its an assumption that they crossed the atlantic, but its also an assumption that these vessels went to Portugal.
5; There is no evidence the Norse settlement at L'anse aux meadows was wiped out by 1st Nations peoples. And btw some Templars were Norse. A little known fact is that there were some very early Portuguese settlements in Nova Scotia not wiped out by 1st Nations. Also, at the time, about 1308, the Norse were still traveling back and forth to nearby Greenland.
6; Actually some were welcomed into Portugal under the guise of a new order. "The Pope promised" lol. What territory did the Pope promise to Spain in the early 14th century? Wasn't the world still flat?

Sure some assumptions, but preposterous, I think not. Synonyms for "preposterous" absurd, ridiculous, foolish. Then there is the fact that Poussin pointed to Acadia in his 1630 work Arcadian Shepherds. Remember, the new settlements of Acadia would have been one of the most discussed subjects in 1630 France.
If you are interested (a possibility I doubt, but there may be others who are), in the 2nd of these paintings by Poussin, the 2nd shepherd from the left, kneeling and dressed in blue has his index finger on the inscription of the depicted tomb. A close up shows he is directly pointing to the "R" in the word Arcadia, and all of the others are also interested in this one feature. He (Poussin, the keeper of secrets) is telling us, without some complicated geometry, that what we seek is in Acadia.

The possibility of these sailors traveling across the Great Ocean is no more unlikely then what the Norse did some 300 years earlier or the Portuguese did less then 200 years later.

 

[treasure1822]

1; There is documented evidence that de Molay left Cyprus with a large amount of treasure (160,000 gold florins and a cache of silver) shortly before the arrest order went out.
2; They did not turn anything over to the Hospitaliers. The Pope gave the Hospital their property after their disbandment.
3; The Templar treasure from Cyprus was never seen by Philip or the Pope. There is also documentation that they had a great amount of treasure in Paris that has never been accounted for.
4; There is testimony that the Templars knew of the impending arrests and many in France escaped and Gerard de Villers left port with 18 vessels never to be heard from again. If you can show where all these vessels went (document) I will drop my premises. of course its an assumption that they crossed the atlantic, but its also an assumption that these vessels went to Portugal.
5; There is no evidence the Norse settlement at L'anse aux meadows was wiped out by 1st Nations peoples. And btw some Templars were Norse. A little known fact is that there were some very early Portuguese settlements in Nova Scotia not wiped out by 1st Nations. Also, at the time, about 1308, the Norse were still traveling back and forth to nearby Greenland.
6; Actually some were welcomed into Portugal under the guise of a new order. "The Pope promised" lol. What territory did the Pope promise to Spain in the early 14th century? Wasn't the world still flat?

Sure some assumptions, but preposterous, I think not. Synonyms for "preposterous" absurd, ridiculous, foolish. Then there is the fact that Poussin pointed to Acadia in his 1630 work Arcadian Shepherds. Remember, the new settlements of Acadia would have been one of the most discussed subjects in 1630 France.
If you are interested (a possibility I doubt, but there may be others who are), in the 2nd of these paintings by Poussin, the 2nd shepherd from the left, kneeling and dressed in blue has his index finger on the inscription of the depicted tomb. A close up shows he is directly pointing to the "R" in the word Arcadia, and all of the others are also interested in this one feature. He (Poussin, the keeper of secrets) is telling us, without some complicated geometry, that what we seek is in Acadia.

The possibility of these sailors traveling across the Great Ocean is no more unlikely then what the Norse did some 300 years earlier or the Portuguese did less then 200 years later.

Look at the "Shepherds of Arcadia Monument" that was commissioned by Thomas Anson of Shugsborough Hall. The "Code" on the Monument, here is how I figured it and what I based it on. From what I understand about navigation it was much harder to get a accurate coordinate when calculating Longitude than it was Latitude. Now with that and the basic understanding of of the way we are taught to read and write plus the application of the most elemental of coding we solve. Numbering the alphabet 1 thru 26 we substitute the letters for their corresponding number. Now look at the fact that we are taught to read from left to right and top to bottom. Replace the letters of the first line with numbers then add the first 4 numbers, you get 70 then do the second 4 numbers the same way you get 67. Seeing how the larger number came first and we read left to right I had surmised that the two numbers were two "Longitude" points west of the prime meridian. The second row of letters, well the two of them were simple the first number was 4 and the second number was 13 but I took it down to its basic number 1+3=4 and stood the two side by side, "Latitude" 44. This takes you to the "Specified Arcadia", I questioned "Why there", and if you look you will find the answer. In the town of "Overton" which lies -66 degrees West Longitude and 43 degrees 50 minutes north Latitude lies a Stone carving just off the shores. It is a "Templar" carving

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/g8MVtR1W0aE/maxresdefault.jpg

O. U. O. S. V. A. V. V. D. M.
15+21+15+19 22+1+22+22 4 13 OR (1+3) OR 4
=70 =67

 

[Dave Rishar]

In Europe, where, as far as they knew they would be hunted down like deer? Cache relics that could harm the Church in the Church's backyard? I don't think so. Certainly even at this only a selected few would actually cross the Atlantic, a little known inner circle. All secret organizations do have an inner circle, do they not? And please tell me why you think they could not have crossed this ocean. Were their ships not capable? Maybe they couldn't carry enough water? Perhaps Templar sailors did not have enough over water experience? Or?
I'm not saying you have to agree, only that you explain why you are so certain it didn't happen.
Cheers, Loki

A trip to the New World during that period of time was not a sure thing. It was a gamble. That's with experienced sailors that know the route, and they're starting from Iceland, not Europe. Use inexperienced sailors, sailors not familiar with the trip, and/or a more distant starting point and your chances get even worse.

The Templars were not hunted all over Europe; they only had a really hard time in France and Britain. In a lot of places, no one really cared about them. In Portugal, they continued to enjoy the good grace of the king and in fact changed nothing about their organization other than the name, and continued to do what they'd been doing for centuries after. Now, if I were a Templar looking to hide some treasure without it winding up at the bottom of the ocean or in the hands of a bunch of New World locals that historically didn't care for European contact, am I going to sail that stuff all the way across the water, or am I going to simply take it to Portugal? (Or Iceland, or Scotland, or any number of other places where the Pope is not a factor.)

We've been over this before on this very forum. I suppose that we can go over it again.

My biggest problem with the concept of a Templar treasure at Oak Island is not the lack of evidence, but the fact that it's completely and utterly illogical. If they had something to bury (and I'm not convinced that they did), they had better and safer places in which to bury it that would have involved less effort, cost, and risk. There was little reason for them to go to Canada, but there were compelling reasons for them to go elsewhere.

 

[lokiblossom]

A trip to the New World during that period of time was not a sure thing. It was a gamble. That's with experienced sailors that know the route, and they're starting from Iceland, not Europe. Use inexperienced sailors, sailors not familiar with the trip, and/or a more distant starting point and your chances get even worse.

The Templars were not hunted all over Europe; they only had a really hard time in France and Britain. In a lot of places, no one really cared about them. In Portugal, they continued to enjoy the good grace of the king and in fact changed nothing about their organization other than the name, and continued to do what they'd been doing for centuries after. Now, if I were a Templar looking to hide some treasure without it winding up at the bottom of the ocean or in the hands of a bunch of New World locals that historically didn't care for European contact, am I going to sail that stuff all the way across the water, or am I going to simply take it to Portugal? (Or Iceland, or Scotland, or any number of other places where the Pope is not a factor.)

We've been over this before on this very forum. I suppose that we can go over it again.

My biggest problem with the concept of a Templar treasure at Oak Island is not the lack of evidence, but the fact that it's completely and utterly illogical. If they had something to bury (and I'm not convinced that they did), they had better and safer places in which to bury it that would have involved less effort, cost, and risk. There was little reason for them to go to Canada, but there were compelling reasons for them to go elsewhere.

Yes, we have been all over this before, and I know that I will probably not convince you Dave, but I answer this for others who may also be interested.

First; You are correct on one point they were treated the worst (if you can call it that) in France and England. Not mentioned by you though is the second arrest order that was issued by the Pope in November that did apply to all Templars in Europe.

In Portugal it was a completely new order not simply a name change. At the time Portugal was Catholic and the Templars had already been double crossed by the Church in 1307, could they now trust the Church? How many actually went to Portugal is unknown, but certainly not all of the estimated 2500 escapees from France.
Remember, by one account there were 18 vessels led by the then Master of France Gerard de Villers. These ships nor Villers were ever accounted for.

In Spain, James of Spain ordered the seizure of all Templar holdings and took them under arms and at least eight Templars were tortured in Barcelona by order of the Pope.

At this point it would seem to any Templar that eventually no place in Europe would be safe, of course my premise is that the Knights of the "inner circle had come to that conclusion by early 1307.

Scotland was also relatively safe at the time which is why I premise first landing there near Ardchattan (there is some evidence of this) and wintering there before attempting an ocean crossing.

As for the Vikings (Norse) crossing the Atlantic, they made the voyage over and over again, even taking their families to Greenland and also Vinland. And many of them originated in Scotland or Norway not only Iceland. Sure it was dangerous but not overly so as the Norse had learned how to read the weather and the crossing distances were relatively short. Also btw some of the Templar brothers were Norse.

As for the Pope not being a factor, in Scotland he had been and would soon become a factor again. Actually there was no place in Europe where he was not a factor. As for Iceland, I believe they succumbed in about the 11th century

I do not premise a treasure on Oak Island. I premise Religious Artifacts garnered in Jerusalem during the early period of the beginnings of the Order, hidden only until a time when they could be safely exposed. There was of course a great treasure which is well documented. If that treasure or part of it (more likely) is also in Vinland is not really part of my concern. I'll leave that to you treasure hunters.

 

[treasure1822]

A trip to the New World during that period of time was not a sure thing. It was a gamble. That's with experienced sailors that know the route, and they're starting from Iceland, not Europe. Use inexperienced sailors, sailors not familiar with the trip, and/or a more distant starting point and your chances get even worse.

The Templars were not hunted all over Europe; they only had a really hard time in France and Britain. In a lot of places, no one really cared about them. In Portugal, they continued to enjoy the good grace of the king and in fact changed nothing about their organization other than the name, and continued to do what they'd been doing for centuries after. Now, if I were a Templar looking to hide some treasure without it winding up at the bottom of the ocean or in the hands of a bunch of New World locals that historically didn't care for European contact, am I going to sail that stuff all the way across the water, or am I going to simply take it to Portugal? (Or Iceland, or Scotland, or any number of other places where the Pope is not a factor.)

We've been over this before on this very forum. I suppose that we can go over it again.

My biggest problem with the concept of a Templar treasure at Oak Island is not the lack of evidence, but the fact that it's completely and utterly illogical. If they had something to bury (and I'm not convinced that they did), they had better and safer places in which to bury it that would have involved less effort, cost, and risk. There was little reason for them to go to Canada, but there were compelling reasons for them to go elsewhere.

It is from the angle that you or I look at it. "Treasure" in itself is nothing more that one perception of "Value". There is monetary treasure, religious treasure, family treasure, hell even one man's "junk" is another man's treasure. After DeMolay and the other captured Templar's were tortured into saying that they were in league with "Lucifer", the remaining Templar's fate were sealed. But you have to remember why all of it started, it was because of the greed of King Phillip in the first place. So with the help of the church they had discredited the "Templar" order as heretics. You had said it is not "Logical", but to understand the "logic" one has to know what they were trying to accomplish. What is more logical then getting away from the very things that pursue you "Greed". There was no place on that continent that they wouldn't have been hunted, not even Portugal. To me the most logical place is where the "Catholic faith" did not exist and where gold had no meaning. Heck, I would assume back the that last place anyone would look is "the end of the World."

 

[treasure1822]

It is from the angle that you or I look at it. "Treasure" in itself is nothing more that one perception of "Value". There is monetary treasure, religious treasure, family treasure, hell even one man's "junk" is another man's treasure. After DeMolay and the other captured Templar's were tortured into saying that they were in league with "Lucifer", the remaining Templar's fate were sealed. But you have to remember why all of it started, it was because of the greed of King Phillip in the first place. So with the help of the church they had discredited the "Templar" order as heretics. You had said it is not "Logical", but to understand the "logic" one has to know what they were trying to accomplish. What is more logical then getting away from the very things that pursue you "Greed". There was no place on that continent that they wouldn't have been hunted, not even Portugal. To me the most logical place is where the "Catholic faith" did not exist and where gold had no meaning. Heck, I would assume back the that last place anyone would look is "the end of the World."

Sorry, meant to say "Heck, I would assume that the last place anyone would look is the end of the world....

 

[Dave Rishar]

Yes, we have been all over this before, and I know that I will probably not convince you Dave, but I answer this for others who may also be interested.

You can absolutely convince me. I've changed some of my views in the past here.

First; You are correct on one point they were treated the worst (if you can call it that) in France and England. Not mentioned by you though is the second arrest order that was issued by the Pope in November that did apply to all Templars in Europe.

In Portugal it was a completely new order not simply a name change.

History of the Order of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which sections of this are incorrect? Cite sources, please.

Remember, by one account there were 18 vessels led by the then Master of France Gerard de Villers. These ships nor Villers were ever accounted for.

How many ships were there in the other accounts? How many accounts were made? If I were to make an account now, would it count?

As for the Vikings (Norse) crossing the Atlantic, they made the voyage over and over again, even taking their families to Greenland and also Vinland.

And sometimes not making it. It's hard to place a number on the failures, but when you read the Sagas for a while you sort of get a feel for it - which is by no means the basis for statistics admittedly. If you have not done so, read the Sagas. They are not histories, but they can give some insight into how the people of the era thought about the people of another era.

And many of them originated in Scotland or Norway not only Iceland. Sure it was dangerous but not overly so as the Norse had learned how to read the weather and the crossing distances were relatively short. Also btw some of the Templar brothers were Norse.

Whatever you've been reading, read it again. You've got enough right to make me wonder about what you got wrong. We may be "talking past" one another here. You'll need to define "originated." Do you mean voyages?

As for Iceland, I believe they succumbed in about the 11th century

When the Pope and Iceland are mentioned in the same sentence while discussing Catholicism, I get concerned. How familiar are you with the origins of Christianity in Iceland and how it was practiced for the first few centuries? (Hint: it's a bit weird, and the Pope probably would not have approved.)

I do not premise a treasure on Oak Island. I premise Religious Artifacts garnered in Jerusalem during the early period of the beginnings of the Order, hidden only until a time when they could be safely exposed.

That's a treasure by my definition. Let's not get caught up in semantics here. When I talk of "treasures" with regards to Oak Island, I'm referring to something introduced that someone else would reasonably want. The monetary value is unimportant, particularly to folks who don't believe that it's there in the first place. "Treasure" is simply a conveniant word that spans a number of theories.

Sorry, meant to say "Heck, I would assume that the last place anyone would look is the end of the world....

Like Scotland, Iceland, or particularly Greenland. Portugal was not the end of the world, but no one started any crap with them during that period of time. You do know that Pope John XXII signed off on the Order of Christ two years after it was established, right? I don't know how he felt about the order and Denis, but he felt comfortable enough to give the order the Templar holdings in Portugal. This doesn't strike me as a man or an organization that was holding a grudge.

 

[lokiblossom]

You can absolutely convince me. I've changed some of my views in the past here.

First; You are correct on one point they were treated the worst (if you can call it that) in France and England. Not mentioned by you though is the second arrest order that was issued by the Pope in November that did apply to all Templars in Europe.



History of the Order of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which sections of this are incorrect? Cite sources, please.



How many ships were there in the other accounts? How many accounts were made? If I were to make an account now, would it count?



And sometimes not making it. It's hard to place a number on the failures, but when you read the Sagas for a while you sort of get a feel for it - which is by no means the basis for statistics admittedly. If you have not done so, read the Sagas. They are not histories, but they can give some insight into how the people of the era thought about the people of another era.



Whatever you've been reading, read it again. You've got enough right to make me wonder about what you got wrong. We may be "talking past" one another here. You'll need to define "originated." Do you mean voyages?



When the Pope and Iceland are mentioned in the same sentence while discussing Catholicism, I get concerned. How familiar are you with the origins of Christianity in Iceland and how it was practiced for the first few centuries? (Hint: it's a bit weird, and the Pope probably would not have approved.)



That's a treasure by my definition. Let's not get caught up in semantics here. When I talk of "treasures" with regards to Oak Island, I'm referring to something introduced that someone else would reasonably want. The monetary value is unimportant, particularly to folks who don't believe that it's there in the first place. "Treasure" is simply a conveniant word that spans a number of theories.



Like Scotland, Iceland, or particularly Greenland. Portugal was not the end of the world, but no one started any crap with them during that period of time. You do know that Pope John XXII signed off on the Order of Christ two years after it was established, right? I don't know how he felt about the order and Denis, but he felt comfortable enough to give the order the Templar holdings in Portugal. This doesn't strike me as a man or an organization that was holding a grudge.

You are calling me out on some minor points here Dave.

First of all, how much danger in the voyage would be considered acceptable? In light of the alternative I would think quite a bit.

What was the alternative? This is the question you should ask.

From your own source; "After the Templar Order's suppression by Pope Clement in 1312 King Denis set about creating a NEW ORDER for the displaced knights in his realm"

The "account" I refer to is well known by Templar Knight Jean de Chalons during his interrogation by the inquisition. Why would he lie, and don't you think the inquisition would have known if he lied about the number of ships in port at the time and whether or not they were still around? He mentioned the French Master Gerard de Villers as the head of this group and it is well known that de Villers was one of the most wanted Templars to have escaped.

From "A Brief History of the Catholic Church in Iceland" from "Dioecesis Reykiavikensis' ;"The Popes authority was never questioned. from the 14th century and onwards the Christian law was accepted also by the people".
Remember the Templars escaped in 1307.

You make some contention out of my use of the word "treasure" so ok, I will bend and call religious objects a treasure.

Cheers, Loki