Evidence of worlds worst bullet maker?

[kyphote]

Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

Just dug the below object in a Confederate camp among a bunch of Gardners. I assume this thing was intended for a gun because there's black powder in the cavity, but a cavity that small for a bullet that large doesn't add up for me. Was this just a crazy camp fire experiment or something more? Diameter is 17.9 mm. Thanks for any insight.

 

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[Tony in SC]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

Early "Tracer round" . Tony

 

[Monty]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

Looks like it's been chewed on. Is 17.5 mm close to or about .44" or .44 caliber? I'm not great at metrics. Monty

 

[Lucas]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

I get .70 cal, or 3XL

 

[kyphote]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

Looks like it's been chewed on. Is 17.5 mm close to or about .44" or .44 caliber? I'm not great at metrics. Monty

No evidence of any real tooth marks and in person it's clear no amount of gnawing could cause such a disfigurement. Was roughly two inches deeper than a Gardner 10 feet away (same ground). Not sure if this is due to the weight or if it predates the Civil War?

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

Its looked alittle like a variant of a Burnside until I saw the base, that is definitely not a Burnside base.. That bottom and the light pressed rings has me suspecting that its a Williams Cleaner that's been beat up and has lost its Zinc base but at 17.98mm that's too big unless the extra rounded portion from being carved or melted is the reason for the extra few millimeters.....

 

[Gunny71]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

Found this quote on Wiki-
"According to "Round Ball to Rim Fire part 1" by Dean S. Thomas, in 1863 there is also mention of a .69 caliber version of the Williams cleaner bullet but none were ever purchased by the Ordnance Dept

 

[Monty]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

I was just looking in my Civil War Projectiles II book and found 3 or 4 with a diameter of .696 with a hollow base and two rings. All the info it gave is USA or CSA musket.Being a musket, it wouldn't have rifling and could well have been fired. Not having rifling sometimes caused them to tumble. Striking something soft such as just soil would probably disfigure them to some degree. That's all I can figure out. Monty

 

[battlecat]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

I cant figure this one out, Is it possible that this was disfigured by going through something?

 

[kyphote]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

My thanks to all for weighing in. Monty: what page in projectiles II? As far as the disfigurement goes, I've honestly never seen anything this crude and can't begin to speculate. I don't think it's due to getting rammed down something or getting gnawed on. It's basically a heavy, somewhat conical hunk of lead with a tiny hole drilled in the base. I didn't even take the bullet seriously until I saw the black powder. Should add that the rings aren't really rings. Just incisions that appear on one side.

 

[km_hoyt]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

i think what your thinking is black powder is just debris as far as i know there has never been a bullet with the powder inserted into the base of the lead bullet

 

[kyphote]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

Very interesting. What sort of debris? The cavities of a lot of bullets I find out there contain the same fine black powder and most of the bullets are dug in red clay.

 

[d2]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

I sometimes find them with powder in them too. I used to save it and let it dry out then put it on a small piece of newspaper and light it. Still cant imagine the powder smell and smoke on a battle field of 1,000's of rifles being used but I got a clue now...d2

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

early attempt at a exploding bullet ? or tracer round?

 

[Monty]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

If that is powder in the base of the bullet it isn't from an"exploding" bullet. It could be unburned powder residue that went down range with the bullet. The base of the bullet is hollow so it can expand when it is fired and fill the barrel sealing off the gases behind it. It improves velocity and accuracy albeit not too much accuracy in an unrifled muzzle loader. Lack of accuracy is why the early troops fired in volleys. If enough bullets went down range they were bound to hit something. Rarely is all the powder burned so it would be perfectly normal for unburned powder or residue to be inside the hollow base.

As for what page, I just looked for two ring bullets over .60 caliber and with hollow bases and couldn't ID any specific one for sure so I didn't make a note of the page number. If you have the book look through it and you will see what I mean. The two horizontal marks look like deformed rings to me and just gave me a hint as to what they might be, I don't think you will ever be able to narrow it down to a specific bullet or gun because of the deformation, but will just have to make an educated guess and that's what I have done.I have personally fired thousands of rounds of all types of bullets including many different muzzle loading ones as well as solid lead handgun bullets and this is the best guess I can make. Now the bullet could be one that has never been fired at all and for whatever reason just got deformed either accidentally or purposly. I think it would take a detailed forensic examination to determine that. Therefore I am just guessing. Take it or leave it, just tryiing to help. Monty

 

[kyphote]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

If that is powder in the base of the bullet it isn't from an"exploding" bullet. It could be unburned powder residue that went down range with the bullet. The base of the bullet is hollow so it can expand when it is fired and fill the barrel sealing off the gases behind it. It improves velocity and accuracy albeit not too much accuracy in an unrifled muzzle loader. Lack of accuracy is why the early troops fired in volleys. If enough bullets went down range they were bound to hit something. Rarely is all the powder burned so it would be perfectly normal for unburned powder or residue to be inside the hollow base.

As for what page, I just looked for two ring bullets over .60 caliber and with hollow bases and couldn't ID any specific one for sure so I didn't make a note of the page number. If you have the book look through it and you will see what I mean. The two horizontal marks look like deformed rings to me and just gave me a hint as to what they might be, I don't think you will ever be able to narrow it down to a specific bullet or gun because of the deformation, but will just have to make an educated guess and that's what I have done.I have personally fired thousands of rounds of all types of bullets including many different muzzle loading ones as well as solid lead handgun bullets and this is the best guess I can make. Now the bullet could be one that has never been fired at all and for whatever reason just got deformed either accidentally or purposly. I think it would take a detailed forensic examination to determine that. Therefore I am just guessing. Take it or leave it, just tryiing to help. Monty

I appreciate your help as always, Monty. This is probably about as close as it gets barring any latecoming revelations. Thanks again to all!

 

[Lucas]

Re: Evidence of world's worst bullet maker?

There was a French .69 rifle that used a minnie... but that's all I can remember. I know the Irish Brigade had some of these rifles...