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Americans are determined that massacres such as happened in Newtown, Conn., never happen again. But how? Many advocate more effective treatment of mentally-ill people or armed protection in so-called gun-free zones. Many others demand stricter control of firearms.

We aren't alone in facing this problem. Great Britain and Australia, for example, suffered mass shootings in the 1980s and 1990s. Both countries had very stringent gun laws when they occurred. Nevertheless, both decided that even stricter control of guns was the answer. Their experiences can be instructive.

In 1987, Michael Ryan went on a shooting spree in his small town of Hungerford, England, killing 16 people (including his mother) and wounding another 14 before shooting himself. Since the public was unarmed—as were the police—Ryan wandered the streets for eight hours with two semiautomatic rifles and a handgun before anyone with a firearm was able to come to the rescue.

Nine years later, in March 1996, Thomas Hamilton, a man known to be mentally unstable, walked into a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot 16 young children and their teacher. He wounded 10 other children and three other teachers before taking his own life.


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Since 1920, anyone in Britain wanting a handgun had to obtain a certificate from his local police stating he was fit to own a weapon and had good reason to have one. Over the years, the definition of "good reason" gradually narrowed. By 1969, self-defense was never a good reason for a permit.

After Hungerford, the British government banned semiautomatic rifles and brought shotguns—the last type of firearm that could be purchased with a simple show of fitness—under controls similar to those in place for pistols and rifles. Magazines were limited to two shells with a third in the chamber.

Dunblane had a more dramatic impact. Hamilton had a firearm certificate, although according to the rules he should not have been granted one. A media frenzy coupled with an emotional campaign by parents of Dunblane resulted in the Firearms Act of 1998, which instituted a nearly complete ban on handguns. Owners of pistols were required to turn them in. The penalty for illegal possession of a pistol is up to 10 years in prison.

The results have not been what proponents of the act wanted. Within a decade of the handgun ban and the confiscation of handguns from registered owners, crime with handguns had doubled according to British government crime reports. Gun crime, not a serious problem in the past, now is. Armed street gangs have some British police carrying guns for the first time. Moreover, another massacre occurred in June 2010. Derrick Bird, a taxi driver in Cumbria, shot his brother and a colleague then drove off through rural villages killing 12 people and injuring 11 more before killing himself.

Meanwhile, law-abiding citizens who have come into the possession of a firearm, even accidentally, have been harshly treated. In 2009 a former soldier, Paul Clarke, found a bag in his garden containing a shotgun. He brought it to the police station and was immediately handcuffed and charged with possession of the gun. At his trial the judge noted: "In law there is no dispute that Mr. Clarke has no defence to this charge. The intention of anybody possessing a firearm is irrelevant." Mr. Clarke was sentenced to five years in prison. A public outcry eventually won his release.

In November of this year, Danny Nightingale, member of a British special forces unit in Iraq and Afghanistan, was sentenced to 18 months in military prison for possession of a pistol and ammunition. Sgt. Nightingale was given the Glock pistol as a gift by Iraqi forces he had been training. It was packed up with his possessions and returned to him by colleagues in Iraq after he left the country to organize a funeral for two close friends killed in action. Mr. Nightingale pleaded guilty to avoid a five-year sentence and was in prison until an appeal and public outcry freed him on Nov. 29.
***

Six weeks after the Dunblane massacre in 1996, Martin Bryant, an Australian with a lifelong history of violence, attacked tourists at a Port Arthur prison site in Tasmania with two semiautomatic rifles. He killed 35 people and wounded 21 others.

At the time, Australia's guns laws were stricter than the United Kingdom's. In lieu of the requirement in Britain that an applicant for permission to purchase a gun have a "good reason," Australia required a "genuine reason." Hunting and protecting crops from feral animals were genuine reasons—personal protection wasn't.

With new Prime Minister John Howard in the lead, Australia passed the National Firearms Agreement, banning all semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic and pump-action shotguns and imposing a more restrictive licensing system on other firearms. The government also launched a forced buyback scheme to remove thousands of firearms from private hands. Between Oct. 1, 1996, and Sept. 30, 1997, the government purchased and destroyed more than 631,000 of the banned guns at a cost of $500 million.

To what end? While there has been much controversy over the result of the law and buyback, Peter Reuter and Jenny Mouzos, in a 2003 study published by the Brookings Institution, found homicides "continued a modest decline" since 1997. They concluded that the impact of the National Firearms Agreement was "relatively small," with the daily rate of firearms homicides declining 3.2%.

According to their study, the use of handguns rather than long guns (rifles and shotguns) went up sharply, but only one out of 117 gun homicides in the two years following the 1996 National Firearms Agreement used a registered gun. Suicides with firearms went down but suicides by other means went up. They reported "a modest reduction in the severity" of massacres (four or more indiscriminate homicides) in the five years since the government weapons buyback. These involved knives, gas and arson rather than firearms.

In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over 40% in assaults and 20% in sexual assaults.

What to conclude? Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven't made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres. The two major countries held up as models for the U.S. don't provide much evidence that strict gun laws will solve our problems.

Ms. Malcolm, a professor of law at George Mason University Law School, is the author of several books including "Guns and Violence: The English Experience," (Harvard, 2002).
A version of this article appeared December 27, 2012, on page A13 in the U.S. edition of The Wall Street Journal, with the headline: Two Cautionary Tales of Gun Control.

Joyce Lee Malcolm: Two Cautionary Tales of Gun Control - WSJ.com
 

So many are blind to these stats and the media does very little to bring it to light.
Yet how could so many "reliable" journalists not know about the stats? The answer
is they do know, but don't report. Instead their battle cry is "Why would anyone need
an AR 15?" and so on and so forth. What they do is repeat themselves over and over
until lie's become apparent truth, but only to the millions who get their sole information
from msnbc.
My aunt is one of them, and she repeats almost verbatim what the news tells her.
So many are just like her, which explains why obamy is in office.
So the struggle continues......




Just because they interrupt and talk loader does not make them right. But rather it shows that they are indeed very wrong.
 

their battle cry is "Why would anyone need
an AR 15?" and so on and so forth. What they do is repeat themselves over and over
until lie's become apparent truth, but only to the millions who get their sole information
from msnbc.
My aunt is one of them, and she repeats almost verbatim what the news tells her.
So many are just like her, which explains why obamy is in office.
So the struggle continues......




Just because they interrupt and talk loader does not make them right. But rather it shows that they are indeed very wrong.


"Why do we need an AR15", because it is our right under the 2nd Amendment to own one to defend our selves from ALL EVIL no matter the source......It is a semi-auto rifle, does not matter if it holds 10 rounds or 50 rounds....
 

Their "logic" makes no sense what so ever. Ant to argue with em is like screaming at a wall.
 

The current trend is toward "Registration". I am completely against this. As I have often said, how would it prevent any crime? A noted personality on TV, FOX's Bill O'Rilley, is now for registration, not because it would prevent crime, but it would make it easier to apprehend the people who commit these horrible mass killings. Yet, they almost always kill themselves. I might be compelled to support some law that could clearly be shown to PREVENT crime. I say that with no fear because no such law exists or are proposed. Guns are not unstable, insane, nor do they have a temper or a bad day. The problem is and always has been people.
 

There are many cities that require registration already. Am I wrong?
And what good does that do?
 

Remember to look at who is calling it "gun control", in fact what it really is is "people or citizen control", how to control the citizens of this country so the government can do as it pleases with out fear of reprisal or uprising............

Once the 2nd amendment is gone we would never ever get it back because we surrendered the only means of doing so... Once the 2nd is gone not a single right in the Bill of Rights is worth the paper it is written on nor is the Constitution for that matter...............

Contrary to what some want people to think, America is not a democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic...... It would not matter if 75% of the people wanted to remove one of the Articles in the Bill of Rights, it is still illegal as it is against the Constitution, and the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land...It does not matter what the majority supports because again, America is not a democracy it is a constitutional republic which protects the rights of every single citizen, no matter what their “elected servants” say.
A majority in America only matters when the constitution is not in play.

When in doubt we only need to read the 2nd Amendment.....

Amendment II"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


It does not say "with in limits", it does not say, "certain classes of weapons", it does not say "except for the following......"It says "shall not be infringed"

 

It seems people dont understand what infringe means.
"1.to commit a breach or infraction of 2.to encroach or trespass." webster's dic.
 

canadians need not apply with concerns to American 2nd. No offense this is our fight.
 

bevo said:
It seems people dont understand what infringe means.
"1.to commit a breach or infraction of 2.to encroach or trespass." webster's dic.

Bevo if this is the case than how can the government have a ban on ex felons owning guns? This would seem to be a massive infringement if ones second amendment rights ? Is this law completely unconstitutional?
 

bevo said:
canadians need not apply with concerns to American 2nd. No offense this is our fight.

I completely disagree. I believe that everyone has the right to participate in these threads and has valuable information to share. This thread was about what is/has happened in Australia and England so obviously this is a global issue and not just an issue in the United States. We tend to learn the most from people with differing views instead of only listening to those that reinforce our own. Best.
 

I completely disagree. I believe that everyone has the right to participate in these threads and has valuable information to share. This thread was about what is/has happened in Australia and England so obviously this is a global issue and not just an issue in the United States. We tend to learn the most from people with differing views instead of only listening to those that reinforce our own. Best.

I'm going to back Stocky up on this one. If you want to have a conversation where only Americans are included then it is best not to cite information from Australia and England. Otherwise, I could immediately turn around and say, "Those countries are not America; hence, none of that data is relevant." I'm not going to say that, because I don't believe that; but, theoretically, I could say that.

Crispin
 

I think in the end people on this board have to figure out do they want a free flow of ideas, discussion of different points of views, etc. or do people just want one sided rant fest reinforcing existing thoughts/beliefs.

If funny that for a group of people espousing the American ideals of freedom of thought / belief and our constitutional right of free speech we have a group that tends to be extremely quick to shout down, insult and even sensor people with opposing views. Maybe " practice what you preach" might be a good thought for the day?
 

I think in the end people on this board have to figure out do they want a free flow of ideas, discussion of different points of views, etc. or do people just want one sided rant fest reinforcing existing thoughts/beliefs.

If funny that for a group of people espousing the American ideals of freedom of thought / belief and our constitutional right of free speech we have a group that tends to be extremely quick to shout down, insult and even sensor people with opposing views. Maybe " practice what you preach" might be a good thought for the day?

My mother always said, "Don't ask a question if you may not like the answer." Let us assume for a second that the latter ends up being the point of view that is decided upon. Would that stop you and I from posting?

Best not to ask the question,

Crispin
 

Crispin/Stock, you're wasting your breath. The only voices they want to hear on their own :laughing7:
 

Crispin/Stock, you're wasting your breath. The only voices they want to hear on their own :laughing7:

Theoretically, if I was wasting anything then I would be wasting my fingers. I have to breath regardless of whether or not I post on this forum. Also, I have medicine to help people who hear their own voices. So, in conclusion, your entire post really didn't make a whole lot of sense, lol. ;)
 

I think in the end people on this board have to figure out do they want a free flow of ideas, discussion of different points of views, etc. or do people just want one sided rant fest reinforcing existing thoughts/beliefs.

If funny that for a group of people espousing the American ideals of freedom of thought / belief and our constitutional right of free speech we have a group that tends to be extremely quick to shout down, insult and even sensor people with opposing views. Maybe " practice what you preach" might be a good thought for the day?

AGREE!
 

canadians need not apply with concerns to American 2nd. No offense this is our fight.

Need not apply? Canada and the US have been allies for over a hundred years and our geographical placement on this earth pretty much dictates that our countries will both directly and indirectly affect each other. No offence to you either but, did you know that the US killed more Canadian and British troops with "Friendly Fire" in Afghanistan than the Taliban did? I am also A dual citizen of Canada and the US so the issue does apply to me. Besides the US gun laws affect Canada due to all of the illegal firearms that are able to make it north through both of our border securities. The firepower that some of the gangs in British Columbia have attained through drug dealing with some unsavory individuals from the US is now a real problem and people are dying almost daily.
 

Backbacon said:
Need not apply? Canada and the US have been allies for over a hundred years and our geographical placement on this earth pretty much dictates that our countries will both directly and indirectly affect each other. No offence to you either but, did you know that the US killed more Canadian and British troops with "Friendly Fire" in Afghanistan than the Taliban did? I am also A dual citizen of Canada and the US so the issue does apply to me. Besides the US gun laws affect Canada due to all of the illegal firearms that are able to make it north through both of our border securities. The firepower that some of the gangs in British Columbia have attained through drug dealing with some unsavory individuals from the US is now a real problem and people are dying almost daily.

You are being way too rational. If you had posted a massive Obama rant no one would have questioned your post at all. The opposition to your post has nothing to do you are from Canada and everything to do that it was not screaming pro-gun.
 

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