Early Naval Button?

[pointdlr]

The anchor tells me it is Navy related, and it looks old. Anyone know more? Age? US?
Came off a very old (early 1800's) farm in Ohio.
Thanks,
Jon.

 

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[HEAVYMETALNUT]

cool button front but the 2nd piece is missing with the shank & backmark which would be the most important part of verifying the age.hope somebody can help ya.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Most iron back buttons are not related to any Navy. Its most likely an old civilian fashion blazer design.

The first pic is a tad blurry. Is this your anchor design? Its listed as fashion. http://www.waterburybutton.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=28804

I actually had to search for this anchor design as it was the first I had seen and not in my files.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What do you think pointdlr? (I saw your name at the top of the page, after I posted, as viewing this topic).

 

[kuger]

What do you think pointdlr? (I saw your name at the top of the page, after I posted, as viewing this topic).
[/quote

Well Big Cy,it looks like a dead ringer to me and a darn good job!!I appreciate the effort and THANK YOU!!!!

 

[pointdlr]

Cypress,

Thanks for the info. I really wasn't viewing the topic when you posted. I have a bad habit of leaving websites open on pages. Sometimes for days without looking.
I would say that your button sure looks like a dead ringer for mine. I really had no idea if it was Naval or not. I will say that I feel the button is very old, and it was found in a place that goes all the way back into the late 1700's.
I wasn't sure from the weblink at the era of button. Are they remaking old patterns, or is this button still in production. I would be absolutely shocked if the button in my pics is a modern button.
Again, thanks for taking the time to help me out.
Regards,
Jon Dickinson.

 

[CC Hunter]

The button is a more contemporary copy of an earlier design, as often seen in popular blazer and sport coat buttons of recent years. Most certainly 20th century based on the die-work and thin steel back that has nearly entirely rusted away.

Site context is not 100% infallible for dating relics. People apparently have the habit of wandering about losing items anywhere and everywhere, all though history and right up to present times.

CC Hunter

 

[lastleg]

Reminds of an anchor button I found that had a thick green enamel background. Is the one posted colored by verdigris or paint?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Cypress,

I wasn't sure from the weblink at the era of button. Are they remaking old patterns, or is this button still in production. I would be absolutely shocked if the button in my pics is a modern button.
Again, thanks for taking the time to help me out.
Regards,
Jon Dickinson.

I didnt mean to imply that its a modern button. Waterbury has been making buttons since 1812 and this pattern is probably still made today.

Your button is 2 piece, iron back. Without a backmark the best we can do is date it IMO no older than mid 19th century. Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong but 2 piece buttons were not around any earlier.

 

[CC Hunter]

Your button is 2 piece, iron back. Without a backmark the best we can do is date it no older than mid 19th century. Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong but 2 piece buttons were not around any earlier. Tinned ironbacks were made CW era as well as the 20th century.

CC Hunter says its 20th century because its thin and rusted away. I wouldnt have been able to tell.

The button is most definitely 20th century based on all the contributing factors. As I recall, my words were "based on the die-work AND thin steel back".

Now, I must correct the assumption that two-piece buttons will date no earlier than mid 19th century. There were brass two-piece buttons being made by U.S. companies as early as the 1830's or so. During the Rev War, thin brass buttons (almost foil like), were made "two-piece" over a bone back, by British, American, and French manufactures. Furthermore, some of the earliest examples of brass buttons are the solder seamed two-piece, and vent-hole two piece, that pre-date the popular "flat buttons" generally seeing widespread use from 1760-1860.

Now on to steel back buttons. It is a fact that during the time period slightly before, during, as well after, the American Civil War, some two piece buttons were made with a tinned steel back. However, this was the exception rather than the rule. Additionally, these "tinned" steel backs were very well constructed and in most instances hold up nearly as well as the rolled brass die-stamped button face, in most all ground conditions. 19th century tinned steel was high quality material. Tin was applied very liberally and being a lovely shiny non-ferrous metal, protected the steel quite well from corrosion. As a testament to 19th tinned steel quality, I have a number of excavated tinned items, that are still as shiny as the chrome on a brand new a '57 Cadillac. As with all things, quality soon gives way to cheaper production techniques, and by the 20th century tinned steel backs give way to inferior painted or thin plated steel back on buttons. Die-work is another point to consider. With high quality military buttons on the 19th century, there seems to be a different look with a "crispness" to the details. This is due to the type and quality of brass (usually top notch from "Brass City" USA*), as well as thickness of material, quality of the die, amount of machinery pressure, etc., etc.. With cheaper quality manufacturing, we do not see the same type of product (the same holds true for the China cr@p we are forced to buy as tools now).

CC Hunter

*Research that one

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sounds good to me CC but just want to clarify. Are you saying this type of 2 piece button was produced in the early 19th century (before 1830) and even earlier? When I say mid-19th, I mean approximately. Surely you know what I meant. I agree with the rest but myself I couldnt tell all this ( die-work AND thin steel back) with the small pics, one blurry, but Im not disagreeing with anything you say. You apparently have better eyes than me. 8)

Thanks for the help always.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Reminds of an anchor button I found that had a thick green enamel background. Is the one posted colored by verdigris or paint?

Looks like patina to me but you better ask CC (better eyes)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Well Big Cy,it looks like a dead ringer to me and a darn good job!!I appreciate the effort and THANK YOU!!!!

Thanks Kuger. I got my computer working.

Cypress,

Thanks for the info. Again, thanks for taking the time to help me out.
Regards,
Jon Dickinson.

Your welcome. That Waterbury site has many late 19th century designs, and this may be one of them, but I concede that its certainly possible to be 20th century.

 

[CC Hunter]

Sounds good to me CC but just want to clarify. Are you saying this type of 2 piece button was produced in the early 19th century (before 1830) and even earlier? Huh icon_scratch When I say mid-19th, I mean approximately. Grin Surely you know what I meant. I agree with the rest but myself I couldnt tell all this ( die-work AND thin steel back) with the small pics, one blurry, but Im not disagreeing with anything you say. You apparently have better eyes than me. icon_thumright Cool

Thanks for the help always.

BCH,

My reference to earlier two-piece buttons style was merely to clarify any possible misconception, that might arise from your "generalized" statement that two-piece buttons are no earlier than mid 19th century. To clarify, I will state most definitely that the button posted above is of MUCH later origin. I've personally dug early sites (before flat button era), and pulled solder seamed two-piece and vent hole two-piece buttons from context of coins that are all pre-milled silver (cobs), and coppers of King William III, William IV, and William & Mary (late 1600's).

The style and condition of the rusted, "sans" back, brass button at the beginning of this thread, is quite consistent with what experienced diggers and collectors classify as late blazer and sport coat buttons. Note my earlier elaboration regarding tinned back steel buttons, and how this particular "anchor" button has relatively no corrosion or heavy patina on the brass, yet the back is completely disintegrated into crumbles and dust. Reference as well, my response to Bev today, on similar contemporary blazer and sport coat buttons. The numbers just do not add up on this piece, to match an earlier 19th century item. I've seen 100% period Civil War Confederate buttons excavated from areas that were pure murder on iron (salty coastal islands), yet the tinned steel back examples were entirely intact on the back of the buttons, due to the high quality of material used.

CC Hunter

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Let me clarify. Technically Im sure you are correct but my generalized statement was referring to 2 piece buttons of this type . I should have been more specific.

And yes its definitely a civilian blazer button. Reference reply #2 that I have Ided as such when I found the exact matching fashion design..

As far as the rusted out back. I realize the older tinned backs were thicker stronger heavier but I have seen CW era tinbacks posted here at TN over the years with completely rusted out backs. Hat buttons come to mind.

Im agreeing with you as I said it could most certainly be 20th century but myself sorry I stopped short of saying "most definitely" as pictures can be deceiving. The brass looks to have a good patina but you have better eyes than I so Ill concede for sake of argument.



Your input and knowlege CC Hunter is most appreciated.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

My reference to earlier two-piece buttons style was merely to clarify any possible misconception, that might arise from your "generalized" statement that two-piece buttons are no earlier than mid 19th century.... I've personally dug early sites (before flat button era), and pulled solder seamed two-piece and vent hole two-piece buttons from context of coins that are all pre-milled silver (cobs), and coppers of King William III, William IV, and William & Mary (late 1600's).

Can you please post pictures of these 2 piece buttons of this type you dug from the late 1600's or even the 1700's? Thanks Im always willing to learn and Im serious.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I was merely trying to explain to pointdlr with my generalized statement that his button cannot be early 19th century because this type of 2 piece button is not that old until you corrected me. It appeared to me you were busting my bals so I googled colonial blowhole and vent hole buttons but the only thing that came up was your old posts CC here at TN but unfortunately no pictures. Looking forward to seeing a few pictures of these colonial 2 piece buttons that may be mistaken for mid 19th century 2 piece, merely because I am not familiar with them and willing to learn. Why else would I be here? Learning and sharing is what its all about. Thanks.

 

[CC Hunter]

Big Cypress Hunter,

Providing factual information here, in a polite manner (I'm smiling the entire time), is hardly "busting balls".

To quote a recent phrase; "Learning and sharing is what it's all about."

Many people reference the posts here, therefore creating what amounts to our responsibility to be as factual as possible, considering that in the future someone may likely come along and use our information to further their knowledge.

Your exact words were:

Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong but 2 piece buttons were not around any earlier.

That statement seemed to indicate you were not sure, and also open to possibly hearing more factual input.

From reading your many informative and helpful posts on this site BCH, I've noted you are knowledgeable in history and identification. My intention was to add a positive educational point to clarify the subject, and possibly help with a clearer understanding of two-piece buttons.

In regards to "vent-hole" buttons, here is a very informative discussion: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,376910.0.html

I'm always open to discussion and welcome any chance to learn more about history!

CC Hunter

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Your exact words were:

Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong but 2 piece buttons were not around any earlier.

That statement seemed to indicate you were not sure, and also open to possibly hearing more factual input.

Yes I couldnt remember the exact date that this type of 2 piece button was first commonly used. I thought mid 19th century was close enough for this discussion and there is no way this 2 piece button could be any earlier, but correct me if Im wrong.

I thought you were bustin my bals to reprimand me that these 2 piece buttons can be found in the 1700's and even into the late 1600's. I believe you took my "exact words" out of context and I dont see how anyone could confuse these unique blow hole buttons with the 20th century button in question.

Thanks truthfully for the link. I dont get a chance to see this colonial stuff down here in South Florida and I am always willing to learn and Im also still smiling.. I sometimes have trouble getting my point across and I was a bit taken back. I hope you post here more often. We hash it out back and forth sometimes feelings are hurt but we make the IDs and get the correct information out in the end. I actually agree with you that factual input is of utmost importance and I need to be careful what I say and how I say it because someone may take it out of context in the future. Thanks again.


Is it really true that all rusted out backs are 20th century or am I taking your words out of context?speaking to generalized again? I thought for sure I had seen some CW era Naval hat buttons with rusted out backs. My computer is driving me carazy it keeps shutting down and I am constantly editting Im through here

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

BigCypressHunter wrote:
> Is it really true that all rusted out backs are 20th century or am I taking your words out of context?

That question is directed to CC Hunter, so I'll let him answer it. I'm just contributing two "related" comments.

Having read through the lengthy discussion between you and CC Hunter, I think the questions arose from misunderstanding a statement -- nothing more than that. "Two-piece" buttons existed in the early 1700s (and perhaps latter 1600s), but iron-back 2-piece buttons did not exist until approximately the 1820s/1830s.

I'm calling those buttons "iron-backed" because that is what the Albert button-book calls them. (Specifically, it says "tinned-iron-back" or "TIB".) I do not think any early-to-mid-1800s buttons had a Steel back. At that time, steel (which is an iron-plus-carbon alloy) was complicatedly expensive to produce, because the Bessemer production-process had not yet been invented and widely adopted for inexpensive production of Steel.