Dutchman Ore

[cactusjumper]

Kraig,

"Kollenborn and Corbin are big boys, they don't need a wet nurse to talk for them, I don't believe anything someone says that someone else said unless I hear it from their mouths directly, and neither should you."

I talk to both men on a regular basis.

You have seen them both at the last few Rendezvous, did you talk to either of your old friends? What you have said is quite true, in the above quote. While I'm not sure Bob will make this years event, I'm pretty sure Tom will be there. If anyone wants to know what either man thinks about those affidavits, simply come to the Rendezvous and ask them. At the same time, ask them about Joe Ribaudo and if they think his word can be trusted. You might ask them the same thing about others.

Ask Bob about the material that was provided for Helen's "Bible...." Many of you already have.

Personally, as many of you know, I would not waste MY time looking for the LDM. Been saying that for years.

Good luck Kraig,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Somero]

Personally, as many of you know, I would not waste MY time looking for the LDM. Been saying that for years.

Good luck Kraig,

Joe Ribaudo


[/COLOR]

Joe

Like I mentioned before, to me the Dutchman is more like a fairy tale. But with so many rumors and stories surrounding the Superstitions one can't help but look, at least we get some exercise, meet people and enjoy those Amazing Mountains.

 

[Somero]

My viewpoint on Jacob Waltz is yes the man existed without a doubt, he did have some type of gold either stashed or a mine and to date the evidence would suggest that it's been found and cleaned out. When it comes to "clues" perhaps over the years different "clues" to other locations have become muddled in, so who knows we could all be chasing something different. We have the Stone Maps which are a completely different matter in my opinion, we have stories of Spanish and Mexican mines, so who knows whats out there for sure, maybe a saddlebag full of nuggets.

As for Dutchman ore I don't think a case can be made for it, since we really don't know if he had a stash or a mine.

Just my thoughts no offense intended at anyone.

 

[Springfield]

.... Just my thoughts no offense intended at anyone.

Can't be too careful.

 

[Somero]

Can't be too careful.

Yep, I should put that in my signature.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

There are certainly people out there, past and present, that can make the LDM a fairytale - whether it should be or not. The story been added to, subtracted from, lied about, and whatever else you can think of.

Mrs. O

 

[Oroblanco]

In a previous post, Oroblanco wrote this :

"Now Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin have been brought in to bolster both that the mine is real and that they now believe it never existed, but we all are subject to change our views on <snip>


No one "brought in" Corbin and Kollenborn to bolster whether the mine existed or not. That those two men did themselves when they wrote and swore to the public affidavits. I can understand anyone changing their mind on something, but are we to believe now that they changed their minds that they saw the Dutchman ore, assay report, Dutchman jewelry with shipping papers and swore to it on affidavits they themselves wrote ?

I believe what I do about the LDM not because of books or affidavits or what I read on LDM forums, I believe what I do because of my own experience in those mountains, my own reading, my own research and my own relationships with past and present LDM seekers. I listen to what everyone tells me and has to say and respect them and their opinions whether I believe them or not. But my belief and LDM search is not pinned on anyone's affidavit or Dutchman book, LDM forum or some blowhard on a LDM forum telling everyone how much smarter and connected they are about the LDM than everyone else.

If I didn't believe in the LDM I wouldn't be looking for it, or wasting my time on an LDM forum arguing with people who do. And I sure wouldn't be whinning and blubbering like a 6 year old that Joseph Allen or some Dutchman author wrote a book and didn't give me the exact story. Everyone needs to think for themselves, get out in the mountains and spend a couple weeks by yourself in a camp looking for the clues you think are important.

Kollenborn and Corbin are big boys, they don't need a wet nurse to talk for them, I don't believe anything someone says that someone else said unless I hear it from their mouths directly, and neither should you.

Matthew Roberts

Greetings Mr Roberts;

When I said "brought in" it was in the sense that various persons, myself included, have indeed "brought in" the past and present statements, affidavits and even television appearances made by Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin, not that anyone "brought" them into the quest for the Lost Dutchman other than themselves and their own personal interests. Their statements have been brought in, repeatedly, as their experience and standing in the Dutch hunting community is so highly respected.

Springfield wrote:

If my math is correct, the USA total gold production in 1890 (contemporary with the Waltz legends) was 1,600,000 ounces. Waltz allegedly claimed that an equivalent of 2/3 of the total US 1890 production was 'showing' in his mine. This sounds seriously far-fetched to me and obviously casts doubt on his statement. Even if the 'matchbox ore' came from the LDM, a million ounces of it 'showing' must have covered an acre. A prudent observer might say either Waltz or whoever quoted him was being disinformative.

Additionally, if Waltz gave Julia $7,000 in gold to 'help her out', that would amount to about 340 troy oz. That would be $425,000 at today's gold value. Quite a favor. Also, if the ore was 25% gold by weight (doubtful but feasible), that would amount to 80 pounds of ore - twice what was supposedly in Waltz's box. This account too sounds far-fetched and IMO points out the danger on relying on all such hearsay, no matter what the source.

I think it's likely Waltz had some rich ore in his possession when he died. Nothing remarkable about that, per se. If he told folks that the ore came from the 'richest mine in the world' in the Superstitions, I'm sure some people believed him. Just because Holmes and others were believers doesn't guarantee that Waltz didn't mislead them. We can't know if Waltz was lying or telling the truth - it could have been either, even on his death bed.

As to where the ore actually came from ... we don't know. It may have been high graded, it may have been stolen, it may have been someone else's cache, and of course, it may have come from a mine in the Superstitions, or somewhere else in central Arizona. I think the decades of hoopla and embellishment have elevated this legend far beyond its source.

We can debate the issue indefinitely. My contention all along is simple: it's a good story but there isn't enough to it to warrant a serious commitment to go looking for it. Weekend adventures for the fun of it, sure; but years of searching?

As we have only Waltz's personal ESTIMATE as to the remaining gold left showing in his mine, it is not productive to try to guess just how much that means was actually showing. Clearly he meant that a very large amount was remaining, and no very large amount of gold has ever been brought out of any gold mine in the Superstitions, certainly not by any of those who claim to have found the LDM.

With any and all lost mine "legends" or lost treasures, it is always up to the individual to make the final decision as to whether it is genuine and worth the time and effort to search for it, or not. As we all have very different standards as to what would make a compelling case, we are certain to never agree as to the viability of any particular lost mine.

The gold used by Waltz to help Julia save her shop was not the gold found under his bed, it was retrieved from a number of hidden cans, jars etc stashed around his home. Yes indeed it was a very large favor for the day, but we do not have the exact amount of gold that he sold at this time to save Julia Thomas from financial ruin. It was over and above the amount found in the candle box. Remember, we would not have even known of the gold in the candle box until after the death of Waltz, while the incident involving his saving Julia was while he was still living at his home.

I will agree with you amigo in part; were the only story of Jacob Waltz to be the one with the Peraltas, funnel shaped pit and all that, I would be convinced that it is in fact a confabulation from a previous and scarcely investigated lost mine (the Ludy brothers) and probably not worth the bother to search for. However this is not the only version of how and where Waltz found his mine, though the alternate version is less well known and less exciting (no massacres for example) when coupled with the various reports of Waltz selling small to rather large amounts of gold, including the $250,000 which some have seen in black and white but cannot be found today, I would have to say there is certainly enough to warrant a search.

To all;

Something that strikes me in these debates is that our skeptics always seem to insist on all sorts of documentation, absolute and irrefutable proof for a lost mine, when in reality there never has been such documentation on any mine, lost or not. Mines do get documented to a degree, but when we are dealing with a mine that was never officially recorded anywhere, in fact was being kept a secret in the lifetime of the original owners, we ought not expect to see a stack of claim documents and other ephemera. This is the fact about treasure hunting, with only a single exception that I know of where a lost mine not only had documentation but an actual US Bureau of Mines study publication done on it. That so much documentation has been turned up on Waltz and his mine, rather points to a reality rather than a fiction.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

...To all;
Something that strikes me in these debates is that our skeptics always seem to insist on all sorts of documentation, absolute and irrefutable proof for a lost mine, when in reality there never has been such documentation on any mine, lost or not. ....
Oroblanco

I have several points that would address this issue, but this thread isn't the place to pursue them. Human nature is predictable and our behavior is controllable.

 

[Somero]

With any and all lost mine "legends" or lost treasures, it is always up to the individual to make the final decision as to whether it is genuine and worth the time and effort to search for it, or not. As we all have very different standards as to what would make a compelling case, we are certain to never agree as to the viability of any particular lost mine.

Basically comes down to that Gut feeling or the Logical conclusion as far as what to believe, In my Opinion. Maybe I'll fall off the fence onto one side or the other.

 

[cactusjumper]

Greetings Mr Roberts;

When I said "brought in" it was in the sense that various persons, myself included, have indeed "brought in" the past and present statements, affidavits and even television appearances made by Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin, not that anyone "brought" them into the quest for the Lost Dutchman other than themselves and their own personal interests. Their statements have been brought in, repeatedly, as their experience and standing in the Dutch hunting community is so highly respected.

Springfield wrote:


As we have only Waltz's personal ESTIMATE as to the remaining gold left showing in his mine, it is not productive to try to guess just how much that means was actually showing. Clearly he meant that a very large amount was remaining, and no very large amount of gold has ever been brought out of any gold mine in the Superstitions, certainly not by any of those who claim to have found the LDM.

With any and all lost mine "legends" or lost treasures, it is always up to the individual to make the final decision as to whether it is genuine and worth the time and effort to search for it, or not. As we all have very different standards as to what would make a compelling case, we are certain to never agree as to the viability of any particular lost mine.

The gold used by Waltz to help Julia save her shop was not the gold found under his bed, it was retrieved from a number of hidden cans, jars etc stashed around his home. Yes indeed it was a very large favor for the day, but we do not have the exact amount of gold that he sold at this time to save Julia Thomas from financial ruin. It was over and above the amount found in the candle box. Remember, we would not have even known of the gold in the candle box until after the death of Waltz, while the incident involving his saving Julia was while he was still living at his home.

I will agree with you amigo in part; were the only story of Jacob Waltz to be the one with the Peraltas, funnel shaped pit and all that, I would be convinced that it is in fact a confabulation from a previous and scarcely investigated lost mine (the Ludy brothers) and probably not worth the bother to search for. However this is not the only version of how and where Waltz found his mine, though the alternate version is less well known and less exciting (no massacres for example) when coupled with the various reports of Waltz selling small to rather large amounts of gold, including the $250,000 which some have seen in black and white but cannot be found today, I would have to say there is certainly enough to warrant a search.

To all;

Something that strikes me in these debates is that our skeptics always seem to insist on all sorts of documentation, absolute and irrefutable proof for a lost mine, when in reality there never has been such documentation on any mine, lost or not. Mines do get documented to a degree, but when we are dealing with a mine that was never officially recorded anywhere, in fact was being kept a secret in the lifetime of the original owners, we ought not expect to see a stack of claim documents and other ephemera. This is the fact about treasure hunting, with only a single exception that I know of where a lost mine not only had documentation but an actual US Bureau of Mines study publication done on it. That so much documentation has been turned up on Waltz and his mine, rather points to a reality rather than a fiction.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,

Being one of those "skeptics" who seems to always insist on "documentation", I would like to clear up a few things. I always ask for documentation or sources when people make historical claims, or cite evidence that is documented.... somewhere.

On the other hand, I don't believe I have ever asked for documentation on a lost mine.

You mention the story where Waltz was said to have shipped $250,000 of gold ore to the U.S. Mint in Sacramento. It's a well-worn story that has been around for a long time. A number of authors have researched that story, as have I, and found it to be fiction.

In asking for documentation to confirm the story, it's only fair that I be willing to present my sources for calling it fiction. As you know, I have done that.

Now in doing that, it's quite true that I have not found any unknown manuscripts or diaries of pioneers, which would refute or prove any of those "facts", but that does not mean that some enterprising "historian" might not find such documentation some day. With some folks it happens quite often, and that my friend, is how novels of historical fiction come to be.

One last thing.....When that kind of "factual" documentation is brought to honorable and honest people, it's the kind of thing that can destroy friendships and ruin reputations.

Take care my friend,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,


Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


Being one of those "skeptics" who seems to always insist on "documentation", I would like to clear up a few things. I always ask for documentation or sources when people make historical claims, or cite evidence that is documented.... somewhere.


On the other hand, I don't believe I have ever asked for documentation on a lost mine.


You mention the story where Waltz was said to have shipped $250,000 of gold ore to the U.S. Mint in Sacramento. It's a well-worn story that has been around for a long time. A number of authors have researched that story, as have I, and found it to be fiction.


In asking for documentation to confirm the story, it's only fair that I be willing to present my sources for calling it fiction. As you know, I have done that.


Now in doing that, it's quite true that I have not found any unknown manuscripts or diaries of pioneers, which would refute or prove any of those "facts", but that does not mean that some enterprising "historian" might not find such documentation some day. With some folks it happens quite often, and that my friend, is how novels of historical fiction come to be.


One last thing.....When that kind of "factual" documentation is brought to honorable and honest people, it's the kind of thing that can destroy friendships and ruin reputations.

I must respectfully disagree with the way you have worded that statement; it is NOT proven to be false. In fact there is supporting evidence in the form of a letter, that other eyewitnesses have in fact seen the documents proving that Waltz had shipped that amount of gold, by Wells Fargo express. I quote here:


"

The Lost Dutchman was never so called during his lifetime. The first mention of his everf having a lost mine was after his death. His 40 acres of land was not sold for 15 years later. Only a very few people knew where he was buried among them the Petrasch family because he was buried in their burial lot. Herman Petrasch searched for years to try and patch together what Jacob tried to explain to these two young men how to get to it. They afterwards thought he was only fooling them. When evidence later verified the gold shipments via the Wells Fargo XX. Co., it caused a stir and that sir has not ceased yet. It is hard to deny facts when they stare you in the face, and it is none of your business why the old Dutchman did as he did. He probably would not agree with you on many things. But it is a good story don't you think.

"


I am not going to hand type the full letter but just a paragraph or two earlier, the author mentions the quarter million in gold, and it is a letter from John Lindley Higham to Mrs Bernice McGee, dated July 11th, 1963. So it certainly appears that solid proof in the form of documentation existed at that time, and may still exist but is NOT available to the public, so I have to remain respectfully in disagreement as to whether this point about the $250,000 shipment was true - if it is indeed fiction, there should not be this letter between Higham and McGee, naming Petrasch as having found the proof and seen it.


Also have to agree with you in part as well, it is a far better thing to muddle along without any documentation, than to be hamstrung by false and deliberately misleading documentation, and there is plenty of that in this legend. However we ought not throw out the baby with the bathwater, enough remains from original sources to have a lost mine to hunt, perhaps as rich as Waltz claimed it was.

If you remove all the parts of the Waltz story which are found in the Ludy brother story, and the soldier story (a lost Soldier mine was in the Dripping Spring mountains, aka the Belle McKeever mine, which has since been relocated so is not lost and may be the origins of the two soldiers story) then consider what came from old timers in Florence, which was Waltz's base of operations when he located the mine, it still makes a compelling if not so dramatic case.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

.... I am not going to hand type the full letter but just a paragraph or two earlier, the author mentions the quarter million in gold, and it is a letter from John Lindley Higham to Mrs Bernice McGee, dated July 11th, 1963. So it certainly appears that solid proof in the form of documentation existed at that time, and may still exist but is NOT available to the public, so I have to remain respectfully in disagreement as to whether this point about the $250,000 shipment was true - if it is indeed fiction, there should not be this letter between Higham and McGee, naming Petrasch as having found the proof and seen it. ......

This is hearsay from Higham alleging Petratch had proof, but said proof is not available to the public for confirmation. A strong opening, but a weak finish.

A fair observer would ask why the proof is not available. If it were available, the LDM legend would benefit greatly. Its absence moves the claim from 'possible evidence' to 'unsubstantiated rumor'.

I hate to keep raining on your parade Oro, but maybe the reason that Waltz's 'richest mine in the world' is still lost is because it never existed as he is alleged to have claimed.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning springfield, Gentlemen. some of Oros' special sock coffee? I am still curious as to just where did the ore found under his bed come from?? So far no one has explained it's birth place? Just more unconfirmed speculations, pro and con..

As for solid data, may I ask if anyone can come up with any on La Glaria Pan, LaTarasca, Las Pimas, Las Perlas de Tepoca, or even Tayopa, which as been found and titled.

All are based almost exclusively on rumors from past ages, yet all 'do' exist as I have proven to my, and many others satisfaction.

The proof that I offer is in taking you to the actual locations, perhaps not to the actual portals, except in the case of La Gloria pan, Tayopa, and possibly Las Pimas, however within a few hundred meters of the others. The rest is up to you..

The point is that all of them were located using unfounded documents and rumors.

As for the Dutchman and the Superstitions, first I hear of fabulous finds, then the zone is declared out of bounds for mining because extensive geological investigation shows no minerals of commercial value effectively in the area, then slowly evidence is arising of many operations, past and present, being gradually found within the boundaries, so that a point of confusion occurs.

This confusion opens the door to the possibility that the mine does exist, yet his life style tends to negate this, yet
in my own case I find similarities -- no, I do not have a box of Silver or Gold under my bed, nor even in my bank account, <--- ?, so logic fly's out in that department..

In one case up at the Tayopa zone an American prospector found his way through many fantastic mining zones to end up at the Tayopa area, where he was shown a falling down portal. This led to a very rich Gold vein, a vein which was far better than the ones that he had passed on his way down - in fact it is believed that this vein is the one that formed the Paramo placer..

It was rich enough that he returned to Hermosillo for a surveyor, traveling through an area that was far more dangerous than what the Apache's ever presented, an area full of X revolutionaries that had turned to pure banditry rather than going home and babying corn stalks,

He not only went back to Hermosillo, but brought back a surveyor, then returned to Hermosilo, but the trip was so hazardous, that he realized that he could not work the mine until things had returned to normal. So he never returned and eventually his claim was voided. He was from Oklahoma. James Teter. We refer to his mine as "Teter's Mine".

However he did construct a claim marker as required by M exican mining law, which we found in clump of very thorny brush that many had mistaken for a boundry marker for the present timber ejido. There was just enough data still visible that we were able to go to the mining office in Ocampo and eventually find his surveyor's data in one of the of very dusty boxes of old records --interesting story here , but not in this forum.

Incidentally, the data has since erroded off of the monument, nothing is visible today, only in my photographs..

So you see, I have a divided opinion on the LAD, but am quite interested in following along with the fascinating history, maybe even putting in a remark or two occaisionally, not on data or previous explorations, of which I have none, but on the logic.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I must respectfully disagree with the way you have worded that statement; it is NOT proven to be false. In fact there is supporting evidence in the form of a letter, that other eyewitnesses have in fact seen the documents proving that Waltz had shipped that amount of gold, by Wells Fargo express. I quote here:


" The Lost Dutchman was never so called during his lifetime. The first mention of his everf having a lost mine was after his death. His 40 acres of land was not sold for 15 years later. Only a very few people knew where he was buried among them the Petrasch family because he was buried in their burial lot. Herman Petrasch searched for years to try and patch together what Jacob tried to explain to these two young men how to get to it. They afterwards thought he was only fooling them. When evidence later verified the gold shipments via the Wells Fargo XX. Co., it caused a stir and that sir has not ceased yet. It is hard to deny facts when they stare you in the face, and it is none of your business why the old Dutchman did as he did. He probably would not agree with you on many things. But it is a good story don't you think. "


"I am not going to hand type the full letter but just a paragraph or two earlier, the author mentions the quarter million in gold, and it is a letter from John Lindley Higham to Mrs Bernice McGee, dated July 11th, 1963. So it certainly appears that solid proof in the form of documentation existed at that time, and may still exist but is NOT available to the public, so I have to remain respectfully in disagreement as to whether this point about the $250,000 shipment was true - if it is indeed fiction, there should not be this letter between Higham and McGee, naming Petrasch as having found the proof and seen it."
____________________________________________________

IMHO, there is a great deal more "proof" in the story I posted here about my family finding a treasure in the Supe's. At least there is historical documentation for most of the story. In the end, "...it is a good story don't you think."?

There is no historical confirmation of the minor or major details of the $250,000 in shipped gold ore. It seems to be a complete fabrication from start to finish. It's not so much that it didn't happen, as it could not have happened.

One of my sources for information on the above story, was a phone conversation with Dr. Robert J. Chandler from Wells Fargo in San Francisco. Some information can be found about him here:

http://www.meetup.com/ERT-SF/events/91716442/

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

It's been said here that Dutchman ore has never been offered for sale and never will be. That may be so, but ore purporting to be from Waltz's mine (box under his bed) has been offered for sale. A necklace said to be made with nuggets from the LDM, and with a good source as it's owner, was offered to me. I have it in writing, and believe the price was $25,000. I would have to look up the letter to confirm that price.

Roy, you, as well as Beth, are always welcome to step into any conversation I am engaged in. The wealth of knowledge that the two of you possess can only add to the discussion.

Take care,

Joe

No doubt many e-mail box's will be overflowing....once again.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Roy,

It's been said here that Dutchman ore has never been offered for sale and never will be. That may be so, but ore purporting to be from Waltz's mine (box under his bed) has been offered for sale. A necklace said to be made with nuggets from the LDM, and with a good source as it's owner, was offered to me. I have it in writing, and believe the price was $25,000. I would have to look up the letter to confirm that price.




Yet ANOTHER misleading statement. Since several people were known to have possession of Dutchman ore, (gold ore which came from beneath Jacob Waltz's bed when he died), no one person can speak for ALL that ore.
In the context which that statement was made, we were talking specifically of the part of that ore that the "Ring" was made from and only that part of the ore.

The "necklace ore" owned by a lady near Young Arizona, I believe to be authentic Dutchman ore which came from the gold ore James Douglas bought from the Goldman's after they acquired it from Dick Holmes.
That is just my personal opinion.

Matthew K. Roberts

 

[Somero]

Now I'm not saying this is not the ore Dick Holmes got from the Dutchman, I'm sure he would have no reason to be dishonest about that. (other than not wanting Julia and Rhiney to know he had the ore, I wonder how he got past Julia with that box?)

What precautions were taken to prevent cross contamination with other ore while going to San Francisco or even at the Jewelery makers?

What would prevent a dishonest Jewelery maker from switching the ore?

If some of the better samples were sent, why is the matchbox ore not that concentrated as the assay report states?

Sorry, I would just like solid evidence even thought I would like to believe.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

It's been said here that Dutchman ore has never been offered for sale and never will be. That may be so, but ore purporting to be from Waltz's mine (box under his bed) has been offered for sale. A necklace said to be made with nuggets from the LDM, and with a good source as it's owner, was offered to me. I have it in writing, and believe the price was $25,000. I would have to look up the letter to confirm that price.




Yet ANOTHER misleading statement. Since several people were known to have possession of Dutchman ore, (gold ore which came from beneath Jacob Waltz's bed when he died), no one person can speak for ALL that ore.
In the context which that statement was made, we were talking specifically of the part of that ore that the "Ring" was made from and only that part of the ore.

The "necklace ore" owned by a lady near Young Arizona, I believe to be authentic Dutchman ore which came from the gold ore James Douglas bought from the Goldman's after they acquired it from Dick Holmes.
That is just my personal opinion.

Matthew K. Roberts

Kraig,

If the statement I made was "misleading", at least it was not a lie. It was also not purposely misleading, as many people do on forums like this.

The accounts of my own involvement in searching for treasure in the Superstition Mountains and my personal history, back to when I was 13-years old is all true. I did serve in Viet Nam for 1-year. There are some things you just don't lie about, and that is especially true with people you profess to be friends with.

I have often mentioned your name in my posts. Some of them good, some not so much. I was ready to leave this all behind me until you posted your crap over on DUSA.....without the backbone to call me by name, same as here. If you want to keep the fire burning, I will post every bit of evidence about you over on the First Amendment Forum.

It's all the same stuff I sent to you and asked you for an explanation. All of it comes from public records. As I told you, I did not want to believe it at first. I looked for other explanations. None are out there, and none are forthcoming from you.

I would prefer to just let it rest. You don't need to correct every post of mine, and I don't need to correct yours either.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

disturbing avatar...
have to wonder why a man like douglas would buy gold ore...when he had tons of his own...as a byproduct of copper...

 

[Matthew Roberts]

disturbing avatar...
have to wonder why a man like douglas would buy gold ore...when he had tons of his own...as a byproduct of copper...

secretcanyon,

Brownie Holmes talks about the dutchman ore James Douglas had in his manuscript which I believe is also in T Glovers book on the Holmes manuscript.
While Douglas had "tons of gold of his own" from his Bisbee and United Verde holdings, you have to remember very little of that gold was in native form and most of it was microscopic and in very poor quality.

The dutchman ore was said to be the richest ever seen and among the most beautiful for jewelry. It probably attracted a lot of wealthy people just as it would today who sought to have jewelry made from it. All gold is not alike or the same.

Matthew K. Roberts