markmar
Silver Member
- Oct 17, 2012
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Now, from your deduction, how they climbed a steep arroyo to the south in a nort-south trending canyon? I can't imagine this 
Dr. Thorne's Gold
- Thread starter skyhawk1251
- Start date
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
More nonsense ššššNow, from your deduction, how they climbed a steep arroyo to the south in a nort-south trending canyon? I can't imagine this
They left the horses, at that spot in the long n/s trending canyon, and continued ā¦
Why you canāt stop acting like s child is beyond me. šµāš«
Grow up markmar.
(Edit) I should have just suggested that you calm down ā¦.
I apologize markmar,
I guess I needed to calm down too š¤
Idahodutch
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Idahodutch
Bronze Member
I post this photo again, but not for the sphinx, but the tip of a peak poking up from beyond and is towards the south.
I was not quite at the canyon floor when I took this picture, but almost.
The creek below, running through this long north/south trending canyon, has pools of water much of the time, and grassy areas adjacent to the creek in different areas.
When down at the canyon floor, the tip of that peak in the upper right, is still visibleā¦..
OP
OP
skyhawk1251
Sr. Member
- Thread starter
- #24
I see the sphinx. I'd like to think that my eyes are working in a socially acceptable manner. If not, maybe somebody can recommend a good eye doctor.
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
Skyhawk,
Thank you for adding the red rectangle, and adjusting contrast.
It looks better ā¦. šš
Since that was a photograph, and not GE, the area may of this photo, may surprise some.
Almost dead center of the photo, is showing some hefty erosion that had recently taken place, not too long before the photo was taken.
Thatās whatās left of the hidden camp.
Pretty big blow out š„ø
Thank you for adding the red rectangle, and adjusting contrast.
It looks better ā¦. šš
Since that was a photograph, and not GE, the area may of this photo, may surprise some.
Almost dead center of the photo, is showing some hefty erosion that had recently taken place, not too long before the photo was taken.
Thatās whatās left of the hidden camp.
Pretty big blow out š„ø
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
I find THIS Doc Thorne story that Skyhawk is talking about, very intriguing.
Especially this snip of it.
I can address the high cliffs of the eastern wall of the north-south trending canyon, at the spot they stopped, as it exists just as described.
Then the tip of the sombrero shaped peak, I already talked about.
Also, the part about the Indians led him up a steep tributary arroyo, which seemed to run right into the shadows of overhanging cliffā¦.. but instead ended finally in a miniature hidden valley.
I have a photo, that I hope is not too big to post.
Especially this snip of it.
I can address the high cliffs of the eastern wall of the north-south trending canyon, at the spot they stopped, as it exists just as described.
Then the tip of the sombrero shaped peak, I already talked about.
Also, the part about the Indians led him up a steep tributary arroyo, which seemed to run right into the shadows of overhanging cliffā¦.. but instead ended finally in a miniature hidden valley.
I have a photo, that I hope is not too big to post.
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
This photo, also shows the sphinx in upper left area (sunny area), and the sombrero shaped peak, but has the rest of the arroyo. The overhanging cliffs on the right, were directly into the sun, and I was trying to capture as much as possible, without blinding the camera.
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
That photo shows the upper hidden valley, that I think Doc Thorne was describing.
The arroyo is a tributary to the canyon belowā¦.. and, yes, needle canyon is a north-south trending canyon.
The part they stopped at in the canyon floor, has high cliffs on the east side. Itās just after a bend, and the arroyo comes into full view just ahead.
I donāt think Doc Thorne consulted his compass on that excursion š¤š
I think he could gage the general direction, by the sun.
The arroyo is a tributary to the canyon belowā¦.. and, yes, needle canyon is a north-south trending canyon.
The part they stopped at in the canyon floor, has high cliffs on the east side. Itās just after a bend, and the arroyo comes into full view just ahead.
I donāt think Doc Thorne consulted his compass on that excursion š¤š
I think he could gage the general direction, by the sun.
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Idahodutch
Bronze Member
Here is a GE image, looking southward.
They would have come in the canyon and just after the bend, the arroyo comes into view. The east side of the canyon after that bend at the bottom, has high cliffs.
The shadow overhanging that arroyo ā¦ the description fits ā¦
Iām giving it a thumbs up š
EDIT:
I forgot to also include an image looking north to show that the high cliffs form the east part of canyon above the spot they stopped. 1st is looking southward, and 2nd image is looking northward
They would have come in the canyon and just after the bend, the arroyo comes into view. The east side of the canyon after that bend at the bottom, has high cliffs.
The shadow overhanging that arroyo ā¦ the description fits ā¦
Iām giving it a thumbs up š
EDIT:
I forgot to also include an image looking north to show that the high cliffs form the east part of canyon above the spot they stopped. 1st is looking southward, and 2nd image is looking northward
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Idahodutch
Bronze Member
Since not much talking happening, there are some things that helped get me to thinking this may be the spot.
In reading through this thread again, and that narrative of the last bit of travel to the gold deposit ā¦.. unblindfolded; bells started going off, and I began checking on things.
Of course, it helped immensely to have already been to this site in person, and the real biggie, was verifying the gold deposit in the arroyo, the mine started by Waltz and Weiser, shortly after they got there.
I have not verified the deposit up in the hidden valley. I wanted to but the trip needed to be cut short, and I was not recuperating well at all.
The timelines match up to things, depending which stories you read.
From what Iāve read, the gold deposit up in the hidddn valley, started off as the very rich Peralta mine, that was just starting, when the 1847 massacre happenedā¦ā¦
The Doc Thorn description from this particular version, gives a description that sounds as if it looked exactly as the Peralta left it ā¦. In an hurry and running for their life. The newly started mine was left open by the Apache.
I donāt remember the year off top of my head for when Doc Thorne got the gold, but 1860 seems to be familiar? The deposit was not covered up.
Anyway, after Doc Thorne, and before Waltz, the newly started work on that deposit, was frequented periodically by Mexicans associated one way or another to the survivor(s) of the massacre.
Then Waltz and Weiser, following directions they got from Peraltas, were able to go directly to the gold deposit. It was being worked by Mexicans the very day Waltz and Weiser arrived.
The mine was obviously open.
The time line, the description of the Peralta gold deposit, the description of the Doc Thorne deposit.
Then the narratives about getting to the deposit ā¦. Virtually the same between Thorne, and Waltz.
The Sphinx sure lends some weight to the John Reed accounts as well, but I have not finished sorting through thingsā¦.. as if thatās possible šš
The approach description by this Doc Thorne account, matches up very goodā¦ā¦ surprisingly good. š„ø
If folk want to throw veggies, please do.
Letās see if any can stick š¤
In reading through this thread again, and that narrative of the last bit of travel to the gold deposit ā¦.. unblindfolded; bells started going off, and I began checking on things.
Of course, it helped immensely to have already been to this site in person, and the real biggie, was verifying the gold deposit in the arroyo, the mine started by Waltz and Weiser, shortly after they got there.
I have not verified the deposit up in the hidden valley. I wanted to but the trip needed to be cut short, and I was not recuperating well at all.
The timelines match up to things, depending which stories you read.
From what Iāve read, the gold deposit up in the hidddn valley, started off as the very rich Peralta mine, that was just starting, when the 1847 massacre happenedā¦ā¦
The Doc Thorn description from this particular version, gives a description that sounds as if it looked exactly as the Peralta left it ā¦. In an hurry and running for their life. The newly started mine was left open by the Apache.
I donāt remember the year off top of my head for when Doc Thorne got the gold, but 1860 seems to be familiar? The deposit was not covered up.
Anyway, after Doc Thorne, and before Waltz, the newly started work on that deposit, was frequented periodically by Mexicans associated one way or another to the survivor(s) of the massacre.
Then Waltz and Weiser, following directions they got from Peraltas, were able to go directly to the gold deposit. It was being worked by Mexicans the very day Waltz and Weiser arrived.
The mine was obviously open.
The time line, the description of the Peralta gold deposit, the description of the Doc Thorne deposit.
Then the narratives about getting to the deposit ā¦. Virtually the same between Thorne, and Waltz.
The Sphinx sure lends some weight to the John Reed accounts as well, but I have not finished sorting through thingsā¦.. as if thatās possible šš
The approach description by this Doc Thorne account, matches up very goodā¦ā¦ surprisingly good. š„ø
If folk want to throw veggies, please do.
Letās see if any can stick š¤
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Idahodutch
Bronze Member
There is something about this that is not a deal breaker for this, but if Doc Thorneās gold deposit was the same deposit as the Peralta/Waltz deposit, it seems like the monumented trail leading to the deposit up on the miniature hidden valley, would have been noticeable 
?
Maybe not; Hiking up the arroyo following indians on foot, probably didnāt leave much time to be scrutinizing outskirts for trail signs. The gold laying around, most likely consumed his attention from time he saw it, all the way back down to the horses in the canyon.
Iām thinking that unless he was accidentally or by coincidence, led right past a series of monuments, then maybe he just didnāt see them if there were any there??
If this is the spot, how many monuments would there might have been, leading up through the arroyo anyway?
I donāt know. This whole thing is sort of messing with my mind.
There is one other thing ā¦.. why did Waltz never mention a Sphinx?
I didnāt notice it either, while at the hidden camp. Maybe it looks different from other angles?
Maybe I was just distracted with the hidden camp?
I donāt know šµāš«
?Maybe not; Hiking up the arroyo following indians on foot, probably didnāt leave much time to be scrutinizing outskirts for trail signs. The gold laying around, most likely consumed his attention from time he saw it, all the way back down to the horses in the canyon.
Iām thinking that unless he was accidentally or by coincidence, led right past a series of monuments, then maybe he just didnāt see them if there were any there??
If this is the spot, how many monuments would there might have been, leading up through the arroyo anyway?
I donāt know. This whole thing is sort of messing with my mind.
There is one other thing ā¦.. why did Waltz never mention a Sphinx?
I didnāt notice it either, while at the hidden camp. Maybe it looks different from other angles?
Maybe I was just distracted with the hidden camp?
I donāt know šµāš«
@Idahodutch Thanks for sharing so many of your findings. You have to know a sphinx to notice and name one in nature. Did Waltz knew it? The famous one in Gizeh was not always excavated in the 19th century and sometimes only its head looked out of the sand. Waltz described a head of an indian chief overlooking the valley. Maybe 150 years of erosion and earth quakes back the head of this Sphinx looked more detailed.
Regarding Dr. Thorne, there is no need that his place must be the mine of Waltz. For a short and easy one time occasion the Apaches could have led him to stashed gold of the killed peralta expedition. Was he able to recognize a vain?
Regarding Dr. Thorne, there is no need that his place must be the mine of Waltz. For a short and easy one time occasion the Apaches could have led him to stashed gold of the killed peralta expedition. Was he able to recognize a vain?
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
Good morning musician,
Thanks for posting feedback. Those are good points.
On the Sphinx, it could be it has changed over time.
I didnāt see it at all while in there, and on 2 different trips, I went over very close to it. I realize I was very distracted with the hidden camp.
I did not see the Sphinx until getting a crop from a photo to talk about Doc Thorneās ātip of a sombrero shaped peakā¦.ā that could be seen from the spot they stopped on the horses.
The John Reed story of him seeing a sphinx, was perhaps 1881.
That story seemed to indicate they were in same proximity as Waltz.
I havenāt really checked out the John Reed accounts, so I try not to have preconceived notionsā¦.
I too had thought that Doc Thorneās place of getting the gold, was just as likely to be just a place of transaction ā¦. and not the place the gold actually came from, but then reading the account here, (see the snip on post 26)
It is describing a vein and quartz studded with gold, that had been strewn about ā¦.
Who leaves gold deposit like that? In that condition. Would the Peralta leave a stash in that state?
Maybe if it was to quickly gather what they could and literally flee ahead of the Indians coming? I could reason that in my mind.
If the Indians had brought the gold there, I would not think they would have strewn it all about??
The destination they reached for doc Thorne to get gold, was going up the arroyo, right up into the overshadowing cliffs, and then they went on up into a miniature hidden valley (perhaps up to the left). I seriously doubt that the Indians packed gold up there, but it is possible.
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Idahodutch
Bronze Member
The narrative snip, of what could be seen at the unblinding spot, is a fantastic match; however the date given for the event, from same section of Thundergodās Gold, is late 1870ās ā¦.. and maybe 1876.
I need to see where I got the 1860 time frame from, but if it was 1876, there would be definite conflicts to linking this particular Doc Thorne gold narrative, to the LDM inclined shaft.
According to Waltz, the LDM inclined shaft was already 75ā deep, when he and Weiser arrivedā¦. Which would have been before 1876.
I got prematurely excited š
I am going to check for where the 1860 time I am remembering, came from. š¤
Iām surprised nobody called me out on that š
I need to see where I got the 1860 time frame from, but if it was 1876, there would be definite conflicts to linking this particular Doc Thorne gold narrative, to the LDM inclined shaft.
According to Waltz, the LDM inclined shaft was already 75ā deep, when he and Weiser arrivedā¦. Which would have been before 1876.
I got prematurely excited š
I am going to check for where the 1860 time I am remembering, came from. š¤
Iām surprised nobody called me out on that š
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
So looks like at least 3 versions for Doc Thorne.
All 3 are different. š¤
The dates of his supposed captivity, 1852 to ~1859.
Maybe it was the searches afterwards, that were 1870ās?
Who knows! šµāš«ššš
All 3 are different. š¤
The dates of his supposed captivity, 1852 to ~1859.
Maybe it was the searches afterwards, that were 1870ās?
Who knows! šµāš«ššš
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
So in Barkās notes, a snip that Skyhawk posted in post #1, of this thread;
It has different information on the site ā¦. Things he saw while NOT blindfolded. Also the path to and from the horses has different information.
It is possible, that the 2 different accounts, in which he gets gold, are complimentary to one another, and both may be true. Just different parts of the same story.
Barks version, almost leads to believe the horses were just beyond the hole they went throughā¦ā¦ they wouldnāt fit.
Was Thorne being tricky?
Then in the account that actually says the horses were left down in the canyon, the narrative seems to indicate that the travel path was up the arroyo to almost the overshadowing cliffs.
Again, was Thorne being tricky?
Barkās account has the pathā¦.not straight up to under the overshadowing cliffs, from a path leading down the side of the canyon, to a little flat.
And back out ā¦. but now mentions the hole with old Mexican mining stuff.
Both versions could be true information, just incomplete, or leaving parts outā¦ā¦. maybe on purpose?
It has different information on the site ā¦. Things he saw while NOT blindfolded. Also the path to and from the horses has different information.
It is possible, that the 2 different accounts, in which he gets gold, are complimentary to one another, and both may be true. Just different parts of the same story.
Barks version, almost leads to believe the horses were just beyond the hole they went throughā¦ā¦ they wouldnāt fit.
Was Thorne being tricky?
Then in the account that actually says the horses were left down in the canyon, the narrative seems to indicate that the travel path was up the arroyo to almost the overshadowing cliffs.
Again, was Thorne being tricky?
Barkās account has the pathā¦.not straight up to under the overshadowing cliffs, from a path leading down the side of the canyon, to a little flat.
And back out ā¦. but now mentions the hole with old Mexican mining stuff.
Both versions could be true information, just incomplete, or leaving parts outā¦ā¦. maybe on purpose?
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
The 3rd version I mentioned, was an article by Spring. A link to the article was posted on a different Doc Thorne thread.
Here are 2 snips from that article ā¦
This first one shows the date of the interview, as being August of 1876.
This second snip has Doc Thorne stating he already bankrupted himself on 2 different occasions, on expeditions trying to find it.
It would appear that the date of 1876 given on Thundergodās Gold, may have been recollected inaccurately, by the folk Barry Storm was talking to?
I donāt know, but the parts after blindfold was removed, sure seem very good š
Here are 2 snips from that article ā¦
This first one shows the date of the interview, as being August of 1876.
This second snip has Doc Thorne stating he already bankrupted himself on 2 different occasions, on expeditions trying to find it.
It would appear that the date of 1876 given on Thundergodās Gold, may have been recollected inaccurately, by the folk Barry Storm was talking to?
I donāt know, but the parts after blindfold was removed, sure seem very good š
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
Dang, š§
I was taking care of something outside, and I totally spaced the discrepancy between the deposit descriptions we see in Barkās, pit shaped ā¦. Versus the trench.
It seems like Doc Thorne was perhaps, purposely omitting various details.
This could also be where somehow, both descriptions apply.
I donāt know how long it took for several trips, and 2 expeditions to transpire, prior to giving his story in 1876ā¦..
I donāt know what year Doc Thorne was gathering gold, but my guess is in the 1860āsā¦.. maybe early 60āsā¦. Just a biased guess š
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
I just had a thought, ā¦
Does anyone know when the $28,000 for the gold Doc Thorne got, ā¦. when was that to have occurred?
Iām thinking maybe that was very long after he got it. š¤
Does anyone know when the $28,000 for the gold Doc Thorne got, ā¦. when was that to have occurred?
Iām thinking maybe that was very long after he got it. š¤
Idahodutch
Bronze Member
Then the part in Barkās notes, that talks of a spur to the left, and some ruins that look maybe Aztec.
The wording leads to believe, that this is seen from high up, at the edge of a steep canyon, perhaps from the little flat ā¦. I donāt know, ā¦.
I havenāt seen Aztec looking ruins anywhere around there š
Maybe itās not his spot?
The wording leads to believe, that this is seen from high up, at the edge of a steep canyon, perhaps from the little flat ā¦. I donāt know, ā¦.
I havenāt seen Aztec looking ruins anywhere around there š
Maybe itās not his spot?
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