cornspike
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Eagle Coat Button, looks like it's Double stamped? Just thought it was strange, thanks for looking!!!
Double Stamped Backmark. (cleaned up)
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Bigcypresshunter
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
It has a ring of dots just on the inside similar to the one found, but its a small cuff Great Seal button hard to see. I guess there are many differences that are not explained in the link.vayank54 said:
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vayank54
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
Just to make things more interesting the cuffs can be different still. I've seen great seals with a ring of dots around the shank but never around the outside. that doesn't mean there aren't some though. There are a ton of variations and some are so close it is really hard to tell.
Just to make things more interesting the cuffs can be different still. I've seen great seals with a ring of dots around the shank but never around the outside. that doesn't mean there aren't some though. There are a ton of variations and some are so close it is really hard to tell.
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ivan salis
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
maybe old "pre stamped" button backs were aquired by one company after the other went out of bussiness or maybe excess backs WERE GOTTEN TO HELP FILL A WAR TIME ORDER and was "restamped" with their name so as to fill that military order --thats about the only way unless some smaller button firm was subcontracted to make buttons for company A and after they stamped the backings out company A then they defaulted and company B stepped in and the subcontractor stamped company B's name on it as well-- not going to waste those button backs during wartime with material shortages .
maybe old "pre stamped" button backs were aquired by one company after the other went out of bussiness or maybe excess backs WERE GOTTEN TO HELP FILL A WAR TIME ORDER and was "restamped" with their name so as to fill that military order --thats about the only way unless some smaller button firm was subcontracted to make buttons for company A and after they stamped the backings out company A then they defaulted and company B stepped in and the subcontractor stamped company B's name on it as well-- not going to waste those button backs during wartime with material shortages .
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Bigcypresshunter
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
I think the ring of dots is also double stamped.
I think the ring of dots is also double stamped.
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
"Keep in mind that using Scovill backmark lettering (including dots and STARS) is not a foolproof method because Scovill often used old backmark dies to make newer buttons. Thus it is possible to have a World War I "Great Seal" button with an 1850 backmark. Another nuance is that while text may remain the same, other embellishments on Scovill buttons change with time. An 1850 backmark may have the name in a groove or one or two rings made of fine lines or tiny dots, whereas a later button may have no ring of dots (like the Great Seal general service button below."
One Scovill example observed:
SCOVILL MF'G CO. * (star) WATERBURY * (star): 1902-est. 1918
(on Great Seal coat buttons with ring of large dots)
Post source: http://inkspotantiques.com/shop/index.php?main_page=page&id=1
"Keep in mind that using Scovill backmark lettering (including dots and STARS) is not a foolproof method because Scovill often used old backmark dies to make newer buttons. Thus it is possible to have a World War I "Great Seal" button with an 1850 backmark. Another nuance is that while text may remain the same, other embellishments on Scovill buttons change with time. An 1850 backmark may have the name in a groove or one or two rings made of fine lines or tiny dots, whereas a later button may have no ring of dots (like the Great Seal general service button below."
One Scovill example observed:
SCOVILL MF'G CO. * (star) WATERBURY * (star): 1902-est. 1918
(on Great Seal coat buttons with ring of large dots)
Post source: http://inkspotantiques.com/shop/index.php?main_page=page&id=1
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Bigcypresshunter
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
I dont know how the subject got in this direction but I apologize for my part in it. 1860 backmarks were indeed used into WWI IMO but these Great Seal button backmarks are irrevelant and its also irrevelant the exact dating of Scovill backmarks. This is obviously a CW era button and both the backmarks match the CW era. I dont see the importance of whether this is 1860, 1865, or 1870
and we will never know anyway. These backmarks were made between 1854 and 1870 approximately.
Heres a pic (2) from the link Mack posted.
I dont know how the subject got in this direction but I apologize for my part in it. 1860 backmarks were indeed used into WWI IMO but these Great Seal button backmarks are irrevelant and its also irrevelant the exact dating of Scovill backmarks. This is obviously a CW era button and both the backmarks match the CW era. I dont see the importance of whether this is 1860, 1865, or 1870
and we will never know anyway. These backmarks were made between 1854 and 1870 approximately.Heres a pic (2) from the link Mack posted.
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Bigcypresshunter
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
These are all Great Seal buttons. Sorry for the bad pics. Backmarks were used past their intended date when companies used up old stock but your find is clearly a CW eagle.
As Mack said, I think Scovill has the stars on each side of *WATERBURY*. (1860-1880? ring of dots) Stars used again later into the 20th century with no ring of dots..cornspike said:
These are all Great Seal buttons. Sorry for the bad pics. Backmarks were used past their intended date when companies used up old stock but your find is clearly a CW eagle.
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cornspike
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
Thanks kyphote! I'm still trying to find any similar double stamp backmarks, having no luck!! Let me know if you come across anything.
Thanks again...
CS
Thanks kyphote! I'm still trying to find any similar double stamp backmarks, having no luck!! Let me know if you come across anything.
Thanks again...
CS
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Bigcypresshunter
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
Heres a page with a bunch of Scovill backmarks, ring of dots, dashes, and 2 stars. I think this Scovill backmark with ring of dashes inside, small ring of dots outside, and 2 stars could be post 1860 like vayank says. http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkScovillMfg.htm
The inside dots must be Horstmann but I havent found it yet. http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkHorstmannBros.htm There are many variations.
Heres a page with a bunch of Scovill backmarks, ring of dots, dashes, and 2 stars. I think this Scovill backmark with ring of dashes inside, small ring of dots outside, and 2 stars could be post 1860 like vayank says. http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkScovillMfg.htm
The inside dots must be Horstmann but I havent found it yet. http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkHorstmannBros.htm There are many variations.
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Bigcypresshunter
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
You have a large O in CO. and a small A in PHILA. but I cant find a match. The matches I found are small underlined O in Co. VaYank can you help pin down a more exact match on the Horstmann? Is this a post CW backmark? Maybe it will help. http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkHorstmannBros.htm
Ask BuckleBoy about cleaning.
You have a large O in CO. and a small A in PHILA. but I cant find a match. The matches I found are small underlined O in Co. VaYank can you help pin down a more exact match on the Horstmann? Is this a post CW backmark? Maybe it will help. http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkHorstmannBros.htm
Ask BuckleBoy about cleaning.
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Don in SJ
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
I have found no exact backmark for the Horstmann, but Tice says there are myriads of them, which gives me the impression not all are listed. What is troubling in determining the age (I do believe it is Post CW though) is the fact the PHILA has two dots under it, not plain and not underlined. The only backmark Tice shows with two dots under the small A is a 1893+ button backmark, but the rest does not match, the closest match for the lettering and the small A is an 1875 era Horstmann backmark, but that small A is underlined, Sheeesh!!
Also, hard to say which came first, Scovill or Horstmann. Well, it should be Scovill first since Hostmann did not make their own buttons, but bought them from Scovill and Steele & Johnson of Waterbury.
Nice discussion button, without a doubt. Here is a blown up photo in negative for perhaps better viewing.
Don
I have found no exact backmark for the Horstmann, but Tice says there are myriads of them, which gives me the impression not all are listed. What is troubling in determining the age (I do believe it is Post CW though) is the fact the PHILA has two dots under it, not plain and not underlined. The only backmark Tice shows with two dots under the small A is a 1893+ button backmark, but the rest does not match, the closest match for the lettering and the small A is an 1875 era Horstmann backmark, but that small A is underlined, Sheeesh!!
Also, hard to say which came first, Scovill or Horstmann. Well, it should be Scovill first since Hostmann did not make their own buttons, but bought them from Scovill and Steele & Johnson of Waterbury.
Nice discussion button, without a doubt. Here is a blown up photo in negative for perhaps better viewing.
Don
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Bigcypresshunter
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
That pretty much explains it.Don in SJ said:
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Breezie
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
Major ^5 on your button find!
I think VaYank & Ivan S. nailed the reason for having multiple backmarsk. Here's a pic of a double stamp backmark; it's not like yours, but it is doubled stamped. Breezie
http://www.atlantaarsenal.com/atlantaarsenal_071.htm
Major ^5 on your button find!
I think VaYank & Ivan S. nailed the reason for having multiple backmarsk. Here's a pic of a double stamp backmark; it's not like yours, but it is doubled stamped. Breezie http://www.atlantaarsenal.com/atlantaarsenal_071.htm
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ivan salis
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Re: What's up with this Backmark?
so my #22 post was fairly correct -- Horstman needed buttons to fill a order -- scovill had prestamped "scovill" marked backs and some one "restamped" em == Horstman to fill the need.
as such I would think that thats most likely a war time issued button most likely --and being double stamped by "differant companys" quite rare to boot.
so my #22 post was fairly correct -- Horstman needed buttons to fill a order -- scovill had prestamped "scovill" marked backs and some one "restamped" em == Horstman to fill the need.
as such I would think that thats most likely a war time issued button most likely --and being double stamped by "differant companys" quite rare to boot.
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