Does anyone know the laws regarding abandon colonial grave yards?

[Tom_in_CA]

hut-site-digger, I have no doubt, that if you ask enough lawyers anything, you can be told that just about anything is "illegal". They will always take the fanciful high-end answer filled with what-ifs. You know, like how if a person shows up at a lawyers office, seeking legal advice on how to deal with a rift with a neighbor, you can bet the lawyer will come up with lots of extremes, advise them to take out-restraining orders, etc....

Or the sad cases of couples who shows up at a divorce lawyer wanting to make an amicable end. But before the couple knows it, they're going-at-each other , getting their own lawyers, and quibbling over every bit of furniture, money, etc... And one day, the couple looks at each other, and wonders "how did we ever get to this point?". And THEN they realize that subconsciously, the lawyer put all sorts of "better bewares" out on the table for them to "protect themselves", etc.... Not faulting lawyers, mind you, ... that's their job to go into the extremes of how many things can be "morphed" to apply to you and your questions.

 

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[GrizLeeBear]

There are laws that govern this in every state. There are more laws at the local levels. Basically, before you can exhume a body from a grave you must go to court and apply for a Court Order Of Exhumation. This requires a good reason. Or, you can sneak around in the shadows like a grave robber. There is little room for gray areas between the two concepts.

 

[kuger]

I know lot of MDers who dug around old Civil War hospitals and have found human bones before, how does that law apply to that? and why would the county tell me it was okay to dig up an abandon grave yard if it is not on record, because they have had problems with people building houses on graveyards before and none of them cared who or what they just bulldozed the abandon graveyard and hauled it out and up went houses. Why did none of them go to prison? If it is not Indian like Tom CA said NO one Cares...

...so,you went from wanting to know where a cemetary is,so you could protect it to,now asking me why is it a problem,and that county told you it is OK?So why are you asking here?If your personal moral compass allows you to not give a damn about the restinng place of another human being INDIAN (why does that make a dfference?)or not,then go,for it.When you have that skull on your mantle and somebody tells somebody,we will see how that goes

 

[HutSiteDigger]

I would think if you are determined to do this......and I understand you are trying to protect the site, I would first try to get one of those ground penetrating sonar devices and see if the soil show to have been disturbed and map what you find. If this is not possible then you AND the owner should dig very gently down and see if you can find a hinge, nails, or other remains of a casket. And be very, very quiet about it. As far as removing bones.....well that is best left to the professionals. Maybe the land owner could just not log and or run logging equipment through this particular site? If I were you I would also stop talking about it online....you never know who is listening and waiting to nail you (this kind of thing has happened with gold dredging in california). Just saying.

Well we are not grave robbing at all, just trying to figure out what would be under a couple flat rocks out in the middle of the woods i have already submitted the information to the county to let them know about it and will tell the landowner tomorrow that he needs to contact his property lawyer before he decided he is going to dig something up, hopefully I will hear back from the county tomorrow regarding this but they sounded like they could have cared less.

 

[kuger]

hut-site-digger, I have no doubt, that if you ask enough lawyers anything, you can be told that just about anything is "illegal". They will always take the fanciful high-end answer filled with what-ifs. You know, like how if a person shows up at a lawyers office, seeking legal advice on how to deal with a rift with a neighbor, you can bet the lawyer will come up with lots of extremes, advise them to take out-restraining orders, etc....

Or the sad cases couples who shows up at a divorce lawyer wanting to make an amicable end. But before the couple knows it, they're going-at-each other , getting their own lawyers, and quibbling over every bit of furniture, money, etc... And one day, the couple looks at each other, and wonders "how did we ever get to this point?". And THEN they realize that subconsciously, the lawyer put all sorts of "better bewares" out on the table for them to "protect themselves", etc.... Not faulting lawyers, mind you, ... that's their job to go into the extremes of how many things can be "morphed" to apply to you and your questions.

Tom,you spend so much tme on here baffling with BS about "dont ask","you ask enough",bla,bla,that ignorance of the law is no excuse.This the reason you hunt at night?I never hear you mention permissions?I know a great many people in your area....pretty much every major Ranch owner,and I have asked if any of them know you....not one?Your technques may work n parks and have kept you safe in the cloak of darkness,but for you to constantly tell people dont ask is just wrong.....like in this case...do you have no morals?

 

[HutSiteDigger]

...so,you went from wanting to know where a cemetary is,so you could protect it to,now asking me why is it a problem,and that county told you it is OK?So why are you asking here?If your personal moral compass allows you to not give a damn about the restinng place of another human being INDIAN (why does that make a dfference?)or not,then go,for it.When you have that skull on your mantle and somebody tells somebody,we will see how that goes

Not gonna be a skull on my mantle @ all.. I'm just wondering how that bone law applys because I do not know, you said any human bone? I know CW dealers who have tried to sell bone that was around hospitals before and have always wondered if that was legal or not. And also this could very possibly be a place where they buried horses too, the flat rocks we found appear to have no engraving on them at all.

 

[dieselram94]

Well we are not grave robbing at all, just trying to figure out what would be under a couple flat rocks out in the middle of the woods i have already submitted the information to the county to let them know about it and will tell the landowner tomorrow that he needs to contact his property lawyer before he decided he is going to dig something up, hopefully I will hear back from the county tomorrow regarding this but they sounded like they could have cared less.

More than likely the county does not care......that being said state police WILL be a very different story. I would just let the property owner handle this one.....

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Tom,you spend so much tme on here baffling with BS about "dont ask","you ask enough",bla,bla,that ignorance of the law is no excuse.This the reason you hunt at night?I never hear you mention permissions?I know a great many people in your area....pretty much every major Ranch owner,and I have asked if any of them know you....not one?Your technques may work n parks and have kept you safe in the cloak of darkness,but for you to constantly tell people dont ask is just wrong.....like in this case...do you have no morals?

ok ok ok! I think were getting into a off discussion here and this is getting into insults now. I'm just trying to find out some answers regarding this and have gotten the info i need, so thanks everyone.

 

[Tnmountains]

Hutsitedigger

We deal with this all the time in artifacts. The laws are also listed under the ARPA act. Basically what it says it is against the law to disturb a grave even on private property no matter the age. So even with my Aunt Matilda out back in the way of my garden I can not move her It is also against the law to have any human remains. Hope this helps you.
We find human remains often and just leave them as they are.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Hutsitedigger

We deal with this all the time in artifacts. The laws are also listed under the ARPA act. Basically what it says it is against the law to disturb a grave even on private property no matter the age. So even with my Aunt Matilda out back in the way of my garden I can not move her It is also against the law to have any human remains. Hope this helps you.
We find human remains often and just leave them as they are.

Yah i was reading into some that ARPA stuff with the land owner but some of it can be alittle hard to understand when the county tells you something but in the ARPA act it outlines stuff. But the thing about it is I am not certain this is a human graveyard, I just have a funny feeling it could be where horses were buried or even cattle, prize sheep or anything. That is my problem with all this..

 

[HutSiteDigger]

like in this case...do you have no morals?

So what is moral? trying to protect a site from logging? or leaving it there and letting it all get bulldozed and logged all over? I think your thinking we are going to grave rob it or something when all the landowner wants to do is make sure if humans are buried there he does the moral thing of trying to save it.

 

[kuger]

So what is moral? trying to protect a site from logging? or leaving it there and letting it all get bulldozed and logged all over? I think your thinking we are going to grave rob it or something when all the landowner wants to do is make sure if humans are buried there he does the moral thing of trying to save it. You win Kuger because from the comments and insults and you acting like everything I ask is a insult when in fact I'm trying to learn something from you, I will not post anymore debate discussions in this forum that will give into insults.

Chill bud,the meaning of "Quote",and the start of my statement directed to "Tom"(not sure what your name is?)meant I WAS NOT TALKING TO YOU.I was asking that question because reading Tom's advice about "ah,no one cares,go for it,left me wondering if "morals",are really that far gone in society today?Again Mr.Hutsitedigger,I will inform you I am in no type or form of competition on here,didnt insult you(?)and feel that I have steered way wide of your "debates"......and trust me,I will continue to do that...you appear t have a "ball".I will however answer questions and give my opinion,as this is a discussion board.I am sorry f you are sensitive,about certain answers

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Chill bud,the meaning of "Quote",and the start of my statement directed to "Tom"(not sure what your name is?)meant I WAS NOT TALKING TO YOU.I was asking that question because reading Tom's advice about "ah,no one cares,go for it,left me wondering if "morals",are really that far gone in society today?Again Mr.Hutsitedigger,I will inform you I am in no type or form of competition on here,didnt insult you(?)and feel that I have steered way wide of your "debates"......and trust me,I will continue to do that...you appear t have a "ball".I will however answer questions and give my opinion,as this is a discussion board.I am sorry f you are sensitive,about certain answers

ahh okay, again another miscommuncation between us this must be a East Coast and West Coast problem .. Let's go grab some and call it a night!!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Arpa ? Seems to me, that in context , anything in arpa is for federal lands , is it not ?

And kuger, if the question had been a "is it moral" question , I would have no qualms with your answer . But it seemed to me that the question was one of legalities , not one of how one "feels" about it. See the difference in questions?

 

[dieselram94]

East coast and west coast does sometimes lead to confusion and miscommunication, I have witnessed this many times.....

 

[kuger]

Arpa ? Seems to me, that in context , anything in arpa is for federal lands , is it not ?

And kuger, if the question had been a "is it moral" question , I would have no qualms with your answer . But it seemed to me that the question was one of legalities , not one of how one "feels" about it. See the difference in questions?

Yes,Tom,but where/when does a person .......even though the "law",says its OK,say,you know what,I wasnt raised that way,I was taught that certain places are off limits,and I wouldnt feel real "happy",about somebody digging my family up....regardless of the reason

Different strokes for different folks I guess?

 

[kuger]

East coast and west coast does sometimes lead to confusion and miscommunication, I have witnessed this many times.....

...well even though my family has roots here pre gold rush....I am not a "Californian",this once great state is chock full of Fruit Loops and Weirdo's....ya know,the Land of Nuts and Fruits?

 

[dieselram94]

...well even though my family has roots here pre gold rush....I am not a "Californian",this once great state is chock full of Fruit Loops and Weirdo's....ya know,the Land of Nuts and Fruits?

I know what you mean, I lived in the lake arrowhead area for a few years. I love california just hate the politics of the fruit loops like you say. By all rights it should be considered just about the best state in the union except for the politcs....it really is to bad.

 

[Tnmountains]

Yah i was reading into some that ARPA stuff with the land owner but some of it can be alittle hard to understand when the county tells you something but in the ARPA act it outlines stuff. But the thing about it is I am not certain this is a human graveyard, I just have a funny feeling it could be where horses were buried or even cattle, prize sheep or anything. That is my problem with all this..

Unfortunately it can be easy to understand once you learn their one simple rule. Federal law trumps state/county law every time. Whereas a state/county may say that you have the rights yet Federal law says you do not and you go to court Federal rule prevails every time. It is similar in a way to why we had a Civil war. States rights. You are a good hunter do some research. Animals were dragged away to the bone pile and not often buried back then it was to much effort.

 

[Tnmountains]

Arpa ? Seems to me, that in context , anything in arpa is for federal lands , is it not ?

And kuger, if the question had been a "is it moral" question , I would have no qualms with your answer . But it seemed to me that the question was one of legalities , not one of how one "feels" about it. See the difference in questions?

Tom. I think you are right. Somewhere in my research and I will have to find it there is a law about if you find remains they are to be reported even on private property. Arpa may not apply here. Thanks for correcting me.