Do you "always" ask for permission

[OhioDeb]

Do you "always" ask for permission

There are alot of empty houses and places I don't know the owner or even who to ask. The places along side the sidewalk, the grass between the street and sidewalk. - Is that city owned - Is it fair game to hunt? OhioDeb

 

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[Bum Luck]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

It is not always true that the land between the sidewalk and the street belong to the city. This is a fallacy that is continuously being perpetuated on this forum. The truth is "it depends". In some locations the land really does belong to the city. But this is likely the exception rather than the rule.

A short comment to a perrennial subject... the area between the sidewalk and the road DOES belong to the landowner... so does the road from the centerline to the "Property". That's why you must pay for the improvement taxes. Tresspassing on the sidewalk... or grass strip at the road... NOT! I was a cop from '70 to '91.

Whoaa!!
I'm a land surveyor, and when you are in platted area in a city or village (which is the vast majority of areas around here), private lots usually go to some short distance in back of the sidewalk. The city or village owns the street, although the land owner is required to maintain it, and can even be forced to pay for sidewalk, curb & gutter and sometimes even streets (assessment). A platted area description is "lot 3, block 6", or lot & block. Cities and villages vigorously require ownership (called dedication to the public) if you want street service. Some meets and bounds descriptions may have slipped through, but it's rare and beyond the ability of non-professionals to interpret.

In rural areas, it is the rule (but not always, since all municipalities like to acquire fee simple title for roads and their maintenance) that property owners own to the center of the road and the public merely has the right to travel it. You don't have the right to pick asparagus, flowers or metal detect, only to travel along. It has been widely interpreted that utilities also have the right to run their lines here also.

Still, I won't detect that area without asking permission because of something called common courtesy, and the fact that people most of the time have no clue where their property lines are. Like I said, when they are tearing up the curb for construction no one seems to mind.

The advice to go to your county's GIS site is good. Failing that, your county tax lister is your best resource, and the second is your village's or city's assessment maps. Ask the administrator, not the office clerk. Although most clerks are knowledgeable, it's not their job to know this.

Hope this clears things up.

 

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[mts]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Hope this clears things up.

I'm not sure... didn't you just say the same thing that we did? In other words... "it depends"? There is no one steadfast rule about who owns the land so saying "the city owns it" is often just as wrong as saying "the landowner owns it"?

If that's what you said then I agree. If that's not what you said then I must not have understood your point.

 

[dahut]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Hope this clears things up.

I'm not sure... didn't you just say the same thing that we did? In other words... "it depends"? There is no one steadfast rule about who owns the land so saying "the city owns it" is often just as wrong as saying "the landowner owns it"?

If that's what you said then I agree. If that's not what you said then I must not have understood your point.

You understood it fine. Thats what I meant by, "damned if you do, damned if you don't". The city can come run you off because they have ownership. Or the property owner can roust you because they are charged with it's upkeep. You are in neither position, an outsider.
But don't stand around rumbling with the property owner over citizens rights or trying to sell them on the fact that the city owns it.

Just follow common courtesy as suggested. If it is a vacant house find the owner and offer to do their yard work along the sidewalk in exchange for permission. If it is occupied, ask.
When these fail, move along. It isn't worth it and you give the rest of us a bad name by persisting.

 

[Bum Luck]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Hope this clears things up.

I'm not sure... didn't you just say the same thing that we did? In other words... "it depends"? There is no one steadfast rule about who owns the land so saying "the city owns it" is often just as wrong as saying "the landowner owns it"?

If that's what you said then I agree. If that's not what you said then I must not have understood your point.

Here's what you said that prompted my reply:
"It is not always true that the land between the sidewalk and the street belong to the city. This is a fallacy that is continuously being perpetuated on this forum. The truth is "it depends". In some locations the land really does belong to the city. But this is likely the exception rather than the rule. "

First off, I'm a professional and have to be careful what I say. I really want to clear things up, but without causing anyone that may not understand all the nuances of the cadastral system(s) out there in every situation.

However, in my experience, it is the rule rather than the exception, not the other way around. I can't offhand remember a place that the city or village doesn't own the street within the incorporated limits. So I disagree.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[mts]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Hope this clears things up.

I'm not sure... didn't you just say the same thing that we did? In other words... "it depends"? There is no one steadfast rule about who owns the land so saying "the city owns it" is often just as wrong as saying "the landowner owns it"?

If that's what you said then I agree. If that's not what you said then I must not have understood your point.

Here's what you said that prompted my reply:
"It is not always true that the land between the sidewalk and the street belong to the city. This is a fallacy that is continuously being perpetuated on this forum. The truth is "it depends". In some locations the land really does belong to the city. But this is likely the exception rather than the rule. "

First off, I'm a professional and have to be careful what I say. I really want to clear things up, but without causing anyone that may not understand all the nuances of the cadastral system(s) out there in every situation.

However, in my experience, it is the rule rather than the exception, not the other way around. I can't offhand remember a place that the city or village doesn't own the street within the incorporated limits. So I disagree.

Hope this clears things up.

I see. So you are saying that in most "true" cities it is the city that owns it but in most rural areas it is the landowner that owns it. What about people like me who are neither "rural" nor "city"? We have sidewalks but from my deed it says that I own it but there is an easement defined. This area used to be "rural" in that it was all farmland but has grown up as suburbs that have been incorporated by the city.

Also, I would think that from the city's perspective it would make more sense to let the landowner "own" it but require an easement for city use. That way the city has zero liability but can still tax and use the land as needed. Have you seen any trends toward this philosophy in cities? Finally, how many cities do you deal with on a day to day basis? Do you feel that you have a good representative sample or do you typically deal with the same city over and over again?

 

[Bum Luck]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Can't let it go, huh?

First, you're either in a municipality (village, city) or you're rural, in most cases a township. I'm not aware of any intermediate category, please advise.

You might think that it is to the cities (or villages) advantage to have the landowner own it, but apparently they don't see it that way. The trends are just the opposite, with many counties and states purchasing the land fee simple. See if you can figure out why.

I deal with a fair sample, but I'm not going to research this dead end topic for you. I suggest Google, a beer and a whole Saturday.

Call a few title attorneys while you're at it.

 

[mts]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Can't let it go, huh?

First, you're either in a municipality (village, city) or you're rural, in most cases a township. I'm not aware of any intermediate category, please advise.

You might think that it is to the cities (or villages) advantage to have the landowner own it, but apparently they don't see it that way. The trends are just the opposite, with many counties and states purchasing the land fee simple. See if you can figure out why.

I deal with a fair sample, but I'm not going to research this dead end topic for you. I suggest Google, a beer and a whole Saturday.

Call a few title attorneys while you're at it.

Sheesh! I guess you don't like being questioned about things... Thanks for the information. Don't worry, I won't ask you any more questions because I wouldn't want to incur any more of your wrath...

 

[minton7]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

every piece of property everywhere belongs to someone... you cant listen for the beep when you are listening for a siren.... always get permission... it's typically as simple as a phone call.. and can keep lots of drama and hassle... I call the city, then the police dept to let them know that the city gave me permission to hunt the strips... but never dig in the nice manicured ones.. always the vacant lots and houses.. I look to avoid drama and promote our hobby

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

minton, your admonition of asking permission from the city before hitting parking strips in front of vacant lots and houses, applies only to parking strips in front of vacant lots and houses, right? Or did you mean literally everywhere, on any city property? Ie.; even parks, schools, etc....?

 

[Goes4ever]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

I still see no reason to skip nice strips or manicured strips? I am VERY neat when I dig and leave no trace whatsoever. It would be no different than hunting a nice lawn. And I do that all the time and NEVER leave a mess.

A couple months ago I went down one of the oldest streets in town with some of the nicest houses, my buddy and I did two blocks worth and only one owner came out to talk to us and she was only interested in what we were finding. She ended up giving us permission for her yard as well. In strips that we did real well on, we knocked on the doors and asked to do the yards, we told the owners we just did the strip in front of their house and we found some old coins and wanted to know if we could do their yard. We got permission for several of them, not a single homeowner was upset.

I think living in the midwest in a smaller town makes a HUGE difference, people around here are more laid back and friendly

 

[minton7]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

I ask for permission for all city property when I call... I err on the side of caution.... That way if anyone would happen to call the police or question me, I can honestly say.. I have permission... I never hunt anyplace with out it. For me, it just eases my mind and makes me feel much better. I have had homeowners come out and ask me and I explain what I am doing and that the city owns this little strip of ground and they gave me permission. I agree that if done correctly, our holes arent visible afterward, but I figure that the manicured strips are in front of wealthy people's homes and one call from them to the city cuts out my permission. Just how I operate.

 

[gleaner1]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Nobody tries to get permission to hunt between street and sidewalk. Nobody hunts between street and sidewalk in front of stranger's houses, unless they want to hang out with the police. If you get permission to do a yard, you have super permission to do the little strip between the street and lawn, which never seems to pan out like you would hope.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Minton, thanx for answering the question. I would just be afraid of a "no" answer, when in fact, no one might ever have cared less. And then merely preclude myself from hunting a place, where there was no prohibitions to begin with. Or worse yet, getting a "no", and then ........ guess what happens when that same deskbound bureaucrat sees another md'r in the park (whom he probably would never have paid mind to, before your "pressing question")? He'll remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting others! I've seen that happen before.

Therefore I think the better tactic, is to look up the rules for yourself, to see if there's any prohibitions (ie.: a rule that says "no metal detectors"). That way, if you're afraid of "someone happening to question you" (as you say), you can say "I checked with the rules, and there was nothing to prohibit this".

For parking strips, I can see how this might not apply (for sake of image), but for schools and parks it would.

 

[Minrelica]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

OhioDeb, in your internet search engine, type in the county & state you are interested in followed by GIS. IE: "Wake County NC GIS" This will get you to the "Geographic Information System" for the area you are interested in. You'll have to zoom in and find the property you want to search. From this site, you should be able to find some basic information on the property, including owner. From there, you can hopefully find a way to contact them.

If its private property, posted or not, ALWAYS ask permission. IF they say no, just move on, there's more out there.

Hey, that's pretty cool info on the GIS maps. Thanks

Deb, It's not to hard to find most owners. I use plate maps, which are available at most County agencies. Also a good source is the old plate maps. They show places that are no longer on the new maps. Many of these are good sites to check out.

A lot of old roads are no longer around either and many old log houses were located near these roads. All good places to hunt.

If you need any help, I live near Lima, Ohio probably not to far from you, maybe we could meet up sometime and I could help you out.

HH, Ringfinder

Are plate maps the same as "plat" maps?

 

[gleaner1]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

I ask for permission for all city property when I call... I err on the side of caution.... That way if anyone would happen to call the police or question me, I can honestly say.. I have permission... I never hunt anyplace with out it. For me, it just eases my mind and makes me feel much better. I have had homeowners come out and ask me and I explain what I am doing and that the city owns this little strip of ground and they gave me permission. I agree that if done correctly, our holes arent visible afterward, but I figure that the manicured strips are in front of wealthy people's homes and one call from them to the city cuts out my permission. Just how I operate.

minton, that's cool but dont come around in the little strip of grass between the street and the sidewalk in front of my house. It's legal too. Just don't do it.

 

[Bum Luck]

Re: Do you "always" ask for permission

Can't let it go, huh?

First, you're either in a municipality (village, city) or you're rural, in most cases a township. I'm not aware of any intermediate category, please advise.

You might think that it is to the cities (or villages) advantage to have the landowner own it, but apparently they don't see it that way. The trends are just the opposite, with many counties and states purchasing the land fee simple. See if you can figure out why.

I deal with a fair sample, but I'm not going to research this dead end topic for you. I suggest Google, a beer and a whole Saturday.

Call a few title attorneys while you're at it.

Sheesh! I guess you don't like being questioned about things... Thanks for the information. Don't worry, I won't ask you any more questions because I wouldn't want to incur any more of your wrath...

No wrath, but it's not right for people to pretend they know something and don't, but worse, pass it along for other folks as true.

This issue needs to be addressed, and for the most part is quite nicely.