Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

[somehiker]

Roy:
Thanks for posting the photos of what could certainly be representations of,or inspired by the "omega".
But that is not what I am looking for,although they are clearly "Catholic".Documents or maps which feature the "omega",from any Catholic order are what I am interested in.I have no wish to prove that the Jesuits,Franciscans,Dominicans,or even the Canossians made the stone maps,or that they were intended to lead to anything that any such group might think belongs,rightfully, to them.
It has been proven,without a shadow of doubt,that the church and it's various orders in the new world did not possess much of anything with monetary value.Like Joe,I am merely interested in the history of the use of the symbol,within the church,and find it likely that it's appearance on the various stone maps is merely a co-incidence.
I have no solution for the maps,certainly not one that makes any sense with what we know about any Jesuit or even Franciscan
history in Arizona.Few of the other theories make much sense to me either....so far.

Regards:SH.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I am unsure why Wayne is finding this search for other orders using the Omega symbol so important. You have posted the Christian history for this symbol, further establishing the truth of my previous post.

Obviously, I don't believe the symbol on the trail maps has anything to do with Jesuits, the Catholic Church or Christianity itself. If some kind of evidence for an opposing view can be found, I would be interested in hearing it.

Wayne,

Are you throwing the Bilbrey crosses back into the mix here, as well as the "Latin Heart"? As far as I know, the only solid worth in those objects has come from selling reproductions.

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Roy and Joe:
As I have stated gentlemen,I fully understand the history of the omega,as well as many of the other symbols used in Christian iconography.I am not disputing anything suggested by either of you,which should be clear enough.I have stated quite plainly as well,that I suspect that the use of the symbol on the stones likely has no religious connotation.The task is merely a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff,with,in this case,the "omega-like" symbols of the stones possibly being nothing more than some of the "chaff".
The stone crosses which were found by Michael Bilbrey are included for the simple reason that they also feature the omega symbol.The Latin heart only becomes a part of the mixture if it is true that Latin was used as a universal language by the church and it's scholars.The concept of such "solid worth" suggested as a "means to an end" is very common for artifacts of all kinds.I myself have a few reproductions of historic handiwork,some purchased from museums which house the originals as well as some received as gifts.While the replicas (with no actual "solid" value) sold by museums public and private may fill their cash registers due to the volume of sales,I doubt that any individual could duplicate such an endeavour or would even make an attempt at doing so.To suggest otherwise is only an obvious attempt to add more chaff to the topic IMO.

Regards:SH.

Regards:SH.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

SH,

From my several years of catholic upbringing and training, I can tell you what I was taught. (the "priest" of our church was a bishop).

The Catholic Church began in the days of the Roman Empire. The language spoken throughout that Empire was Latin. St. Peter moved the seat of Church government from Antioch to Rome, and the Catholic Church government is still there. It was only natural that Latin became the language of the Church. As the centuries went by, Latin still remained the language of the educated classes--even into the 18th and 19th centuries. Therefore, it is not at all surprising that Latin should still be the official language of the Catholic Church. The church wanted to maintain a universal language, and Latin doesn't change, and that facilitates the unity of the Church. Masses have always been held in Latin, enabling bishops from all over the world to communicate with each other easily.

Beth

 

[somehiker]

SH,

From my several years of catholic upbringing and training, I can tell you what I was taught. (the "priest" of our church was a bishop).

The Catholic Church began in the days of the Roman Empire. The language spoken throughout that Empire was Latin. St. Peter moved the seat of Church government from Antioch to Rome, and the Catholic Church government is still there. It was only natural that Latin became the language of the Church. As the centuries went by, Latin still remained the language of the educated classes--even into the 18th and 19th centuries. Therefore, it is not at all surprising that Latin should still be the official language of the Catholic Church. The church wanted to maintain a universal language, and Latin doesn't change, and that facilitates the unity of the Church. Masses have always been held in Latin, enabling bishops from all over the world to communicate with each other easily.

Beth

But not the 20th...........am I correct?
For the average academic,I mean.

 

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

Roy and Joe:
As I have stated gentlemen,I fully understand the history of the omega,as well as many of the other symbols used in Christian iconography.I am not disputing anything suggested by either of you,which should be clear enough.I have stated quite plainly as well,that I suspect that the use of the symbol on the stones likely has no religious connotation.The task is merely a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff,with,in this case,the "omega-like" symbols of the stones possibly being nothing more than some of the "chaff".

I had gotten the (mistaken) impression that you had found a clear and indisputable mark or sign on the stone maps which would tie them to the Jesuits; the omega unfortunately will work for others including the Franciscans, or even just Catholic, or not even Catholic.

Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

The churches I have attended most recently still do mass in Latin.

Though, there have been many offshoots to the original Roman Catholic and Byzantine Catholic churches - non-denominational christian churches, that have changed over to English. (and Spanish, depending on the area).

Again, I'm just going by what I was taught, and my experiences in the last few years with churches I have attended. (both Catholic and "Christian" churches).

Beth

 

[Javaone]

Hey SH and Os,
Do you guys ever sleep?

Question to everyone: How many coincidences would it take before it would become more than just a coincidence??

Thanks in Advance
Jerry

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

We catch at least 40 winks every week.!!


Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Javaone wrote

Question to everyone: How many coincidences would it take before it would become more than just a coincidence??

1

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker wrote

Roy and Joe:
As I have stated gentlemen,I fully understand the history of the omega,as well as many of the other symbols used in Christian iconography.I am not disputing anything suggested by either of you,which should be clear enough.I have stated quite plainly as well,that I suspect that the use of the symbol on the stones likely has no religious connotation.The task is merely a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff,with,in this case,the "omega-like" symbols of the stones possibly being nothing more than some of the "chaff".

I had gotten the (mistaken) impression that you had found a clear and indisputable mark or sign on the stone maps which would tie them to the Jesuits; the omega unfortunately will work for others including the Franciscans, or even just Catholic, or not even Catholic.

Oroblanco

I'm glad that I was able to clear that up.After all,the omega has many meanings,with the inclusion of same on this COA being but one example with religious connotation(s).

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Javaone wrote

Question to everyone: How many coincidences would it take before it would become more than just a coincidence??

1

Hi Jerry:
Probably depends on whose coincidences are being discussed.
As well as how sensitive the subject matter.

 

[Javaone]

Joe,

SH,

Ok, that "omega" symbol has been talked about quite a bit.

As I'm sure you know - it is also used as a symbol for "the end", life and immortality and used in algebra quite frequently.

Beth

The "omega" symbol does not necessarily mean "the end", a better translation would be "destination". There can be several destinations along the way...


Jerry

 

[somehiker]

Gerry:

The number of answers to what the "omega" means is only limited to the context in which it has been used IMHO.
There is probably a reason to mark something as a destination or "the end",if that is what the symbol represents.

Regards:SH.

 

[Javaone]

Gerry:

The number of answers to what the "omega" means is only limited to the context in which it has been used IMHO.
There is probably a reason to mark something as a destination or "the end",if that is what the symbol represents.

Regards:SH.

Agreed. But there are four "omega" symbols if you include the crosses in the set. I'm not so sure they are all representing the same spot. Just throwing it out there...

Best
Jerry

 

[somehiker]

I agree Jerry.They do seem to apply to slightly different locations or eventual destinations.
There are actually 5 when the one added to the priest map is included in the count.
The number "5" also appears near one of the symbols,coincidentally.

Regards:SH.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Jerry,

I agree, there are many meaning for the omega sign. I would not say "destination" is a better word, just another word, though.

One of the things I looked at quite a few years ago, in conjunction with the omega and the stones, was the numbers you could come up with
if you looked at the bible versus that contain "omega" (I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end). Not saying that is what
it is supposed to mean - just another thing that you could look at.

Beth

 

[Blindbowman]

and what dose any of this got to do with the broken string on my banjo ..?

 

[EE THr]

BB---

It means that if you knew where the Dutchman was, you could afford to keep plenty of spare strings.

 

[cactusjumper]

EE,

That confirms my suspicions! I have always suspected that bb was a few strings short of a working banjo.

Joe