Different types of spikes....anyone know ages ?

[Alexandre]

No, for the reasons already stated above.

Ships that were constructed in Spain but repaired in the Americas might have had copper or bronze fasteners perhaps?

 

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[TRG]

No, for the reasons already stated above.

OK Alex, I believe these are your "reasons stated above":

1) As far as I know, there are NO copper alloyed fasteners ever been archaeologically comproved on modern sites dating to prior the 1770s.

2) There are no copper alloyed fasteners listed on construction bills for Spanish ships prior to early 1800s, only "clavos de hierro" - and believe me, I have read hundreds.

3) The Spanish had lots of iron ore in the Basque country. Iron was cheap and readily available for them.

4) Bronze, however, was really expensive, as they hardly had tin and they were always scrapping for it for artillery.

5) So, economically and logistically, it did not make sense to have copper alloyed ship fasteners instead of iron ones.

Reason 1 - "as far as I know"

Many thousands of ships were constructed between 1500 and 1770 and your sample is rather small.

Reason 2 - "... no copper alloyed fasteners listed on construction bills..." [that you have examined]

See above and, as I posted previously, in the new world copper was more plentiful than iron - iron nails and fittings had to be imported from Spain - and copper and bronze were used to produce all manner of useful items. Let me re-post the quote:


"The history of commercial mining in Mexico dates back to the Colonial Period. Because of its use in
many critical sectors of the economy, copper was a significant resource in New Spain. In a society where
iron goods were scarce, copper (unalloyed or mixed with tin or zinc to produce bronze or brass) was
indispensable. It was the most widely employed utilitarian metal in Spanish Colonial times. Its importance
is manifest in the many ways it was used, from coinage and armaments to innumerable articles of industrial,
domestic, and artistic use. In its nonmetallic form, it was used to process silver ore. In the eyes of the crown,
the use of copper for making silver and gold coins and armaments commanded the highest priority followed
by its use for making utensils and equipment needed in the manufacture of sugar (Barrett, 1987)."

Reasons 3, 4, and 5 - see above. You are generalizing and making assumptions and assertions that are not necessarily generalize-able.

Iron nails are ancient, no doubt:

The history of nail making

and used in shipbuilding as the construction bills attest:

https://www.qaronline.org/conservation/artifacts/structural-components/iron-nails-and-spikes

but the use of iron structural elements was hampered by the poor quality of wrought iron prior to the 18th century. Uses of iron in direct contact with seawater seem to be mainly for anchors and rudder fittings before then. The latter was one of the main problems with lead sheathing as it caused the rudder fittings to deteriorate. Lead sheathing was afixed with copper nails. Wood sheathing with treenails - and perhaps bronze or copper spikes, especially I would think for repairs. There would be many uses for iron nails and bolts in the interior of the ship and for various fittings where no direct or prolonged contact with seawater would be expected, and by volume this would be the great majority of such items used for construction.

Shipbuilding, 1590-1790 by Y. Eyup Ozveren [Source: Review (Fernand Braudel Center) , 2000, Vol. 23, No. 1, Commodity Chains in
the World-Economy, 1590—1790 (2000), pp. 15-86] has a shipbuilding commodities chain chart on page 16 listing copper and bronze for various uses, along with iron. It mentions that Havana was a major center of Spanish shipbuilding during the 17th century as well as a port on the west coast of Nicaragua. We know that repairs were commonly performed at Vera Cruz.

This link talks about a 17th century ship's galley lined with copper as fire proofing:

https://maritimeasia.ws/maritimelanka/avondster/galley.html

This article talks about ship construction in some detail and may be of interest to some:

THE STRUCTURES OF ENGLISH WOODEN SHIPS:
WILLIAM SUTHERLAND'S SHIP, CIRCA 1710
Trevor Kenchington, The Northern Mariner/Le Marin du nord, III, No. 1 (January 1993),l-43.

[I have this and the one cited above as pdf's if someone cannot access the Springer online version]


The long and the short here is that statements that no bronze or copper fasteners were used prior to 1770, except in pre-Roman times seems... fantastical, actually. More likely they were used where appropriate by choice and perhaps where a fastener was needed in a pinch if that was what was available and that the bulk of the fasteners on any given ship of the period were iron - for the reasons you suggest and throughout the interior of the ship because corrosion resistance is less of a factor.

 

[Alexandre]

You are right in that the absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence.


But, for me, the idea that, somehow, the only evidence of copper alloyed fasteners being used prior to the 1780s in Spanish ships is found in several ships excavated from a non controlled environment from a precise point of the world, against all the other evidence found in archives and controlled archaeological excavations (yes, I asked arround, to all the specialists in Iberian shipbuilding out there) does not make sense.

So, these copper alloyed spikes appearing in Florida are either non ship fasteners or are contamination from a later shipwreck that happened there.

OK Alex, I believe these are your "reasons stated above":



Reasons 3, 4, and 5 - see above. You are generalizing and making assumptions and assertions that are not necessarily generalize-able.




The long and the short here is that statements that no bronze or copper fasteners were used prior to 1770, except in pre-Roman times seems... fantastical, actually. More likely they were used where appropriate by choice and perhaps where a fastener was needed in a pinch if that was what was available and that the bulk of the fasteners on any given ship of the period were iron - for the reasons you suggest and throughout the interior of the ship because corrosion resistance is less of a factor.

 

[TRG]

The ships in question were returning from from New World ports to Spain, very likely all were repaired there and some may have been built there. How many New World wrecks have been excavated in a way that would meet your test of "a controlled environment"?

I find it a little hard to believe that there were some 'bronze spike police' that operated world wide up until 1770 that were ready to string up offenders from the nearest yard arm for violating this 'rule'. People make use of the materials at hand in a way that fits their needs as a general rule.

This said, very few wrecks have been systematically excavated, and fasteners are low on the list of 'interesting items' that are most commonly recovered. The book mentioned above, "The Structures of English Wooden Ships:...", mentions that shipwrights wrote little down about their work and tradecraft, teaching others as apprentices and not generally sharing their traditions, so getting a clear understanding of ship construction and materials [especially prior to 1770] is not an easy task long after the fact. As for the original question - "dating spikes" - it seems to me that likely they can only be dated reliably by context, as the styles, materials, and techniques of manufacture are fairly generic and relatively ancient.

 

[TRG]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3csyp63

 

[ARC]

You are right in that the absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence.


But, for me, the idea that, somehow, the only evidence of copper alloyed fasteners being used prior to the 1780s in Spanish ships is found in several ships excavated from a non controlled environment from a precise point of the world, against all the other evidence found in archives and controlled archaeological excavations (yes, I asked arround, to all the specialists in Iberian shipbuilding out there) does not make sense.

So, these copper alloyed spikes appearing in Florida are either non ship fasteners or are contamination from a later shipwreck that happened there.

So I guess that spike with the 1733 coin was either a coincidence of two separate ships ... although this has never been mentioned or substantiated... debri's combined in the same spot... which I guess it is possible... BUT... there would be OBVIOUS signs of a mixture of two ships debris from 2 time periods resting in the same places. (this is not the movie "The Deep" BTW :P )

OR... the result of someone with a coin... spike and superglue... deciding to "create" something cool in hopes of a higher sale ? ? ?

Just remember this old saying...

"There is a first time for everything".

and I am pretty sure the author of that little saying really meant "everything". heh

 

[Alexandre]

I once found a chinese ming ceramic shard attached to a can of coca-cola... debris do mix.

And, yes, it could have been salted, it is a possibility, too

So I guess that spike with the 1733 coin was either a coincidence of two separate ships ... although this has never been mentioned or substantiated... debri's combined in the same spot...


OR... the result of someone with a coin... spike and superglue... deciding to "create" something cool in hopes of a higher sale ? ? ?

Just remember this old saying...

"There is a first time for everything".

and I am pretty sure the author of that little saying really meant "everything". heh

 

[Blak bart]

Well to be clear there are several 1733 sites with other wrecks very close and mixed. Dont remember the details of the "chavez", but i know an 1800s schooner is literally overlapping on this wreck. I believe that coins from the 1800s wreck have been found mixed on this site. The spike in the second row with the very fat square head came from the sand bar which is less than a mile from this site. So that could very well be the reason behind these type finds there. If you read about the el infante, you will find the HMS fly lying nearly on top of it. That 1733 coin stuck to the spike could be attributed to this type of cross contamination. I recently found a schooner wreck close to "El lerri" also. Top spike in first pic. was found inshore of this jumble of wreckage. So at least 2-3 of these 1733 wrecks could be or most certainly are contaminated from 19 century wreck debris. This does not rule out the possibility of copper alloy fasteners being used in repairs in the new world, or even cargo being carried on board this fleet being fastened with these type fasteners. I can attest to the use of copper alloys in the new world.....i have found many great artifacts of copper alloy.....most of which show evidence of gilding on them. Buttons, buckles, cuff links etc.
Im constantly amazed at the array of copper alloy products being shipped from new world to old on the 1733 boats. Lots of horse tack made of copper alloy ive found over the years at certain shore side sites. Buckles and rosettes attest to the amount of craftsmanship in the new world.....im pretty sure among the cargo listed as gifts in the manifests was a large amount of horse tack made in the new world of copper alloy and being shipped back to the markets of Europe. I say this because of the shear number of these rossettes ive found !! To be fair the number of Iron fasteners at these sites is enormous.

 

[whydahdiver]

We found a .50 cal slug concreted to a coin dated 1715 on the Whydah which sank in 1717 and a "trap door" from a trawler wedged under a cannon on site also. On Cape Cod, the sand is constantly moving and allowing things dropped near the site to eventually settle down to the hard clay layer where everything stops including gold dust which was in long gone

 

[WaveJunky757]

I always find it interesting and saddening that some people think they are an “expert” on a topic that happened 300years ago, because you have a shiny certification, or somehow entitled to an opinion of a higher standard. (Not mentioning names of these “elite professionals”. ) Guess what, no one was there , or witnessed anything. It’s always fun to assume and speculate .... but when people feel like that are the “end all” of assuming and speculating, well then your not in it for the right reasons.

 

[TRG]

It is true that without careful excavation and thorough documentation it is difficult or impossible to answer questions like the one being discussed definitively, especially when contemporary accounts and documentation are sparse or lacking. The sea is restless too, always at work moving sand and debris, rarely letting the dead rest in peace.

 

[Alexandre]

So, there you go. Applying Occam's razor, that's your explanation, right there.

Saying 1733 Spanish ships were copper alloyed fastened because "they could be and experts know nothing", in spite of not a single example ever having been found, either from documentation or from archaeological sites its like saying that 1733 Spanish ships had center board engines because, well, because they could be and experts know nothing.

Well to be clear there are several 1733 sites with other wrecks very close and mixed. Dont remember the details of the "chavez", but i know an 1800s schooner is literally overlapping on this wreck. That 1733 coin stuck to the spike could be attributed to this type of cross contamination. I recently found a schooner wreck close to "El lerri" also. Top spike in first pic. was found inshore of this jumble of wreckage. So at least 2-3 of these 1733 wrecks could be or most certainly are contaminated from 19 century wreck debris.

 

[Blak bart]

I don't believe I said any of that anywhere alexandre ?? Perhaps your mistaking me for someone else's post. Your quote that is attributed to me says nothing of what you are talking about ?? In fact it is agreeing with you on the point of cross contamination of 1733 sites ?? Right ?? You may be mistaken wavejunky 757s comments or another posters comments for mine. I have been more than respectful and even thankful for your contributions.....and every one else's for that matter. Your contributions are appreciated here, but I'm not sure who exactly your last post was directed at......im thinking you quoted me but meant someone else ??

 

[Blak bart]

The download of magoopetrs has mentioned things like cargo and even above deck structures having different types of fasteners other than the typical fasteners found in the load bearing and working parts of the hull, ribs , knees, futtocks, planking etc. etc. Im still trying to account for the handful of copper alloy fasteners found on many wrecks from both 1715, and 1733.......not to mention some positive dates on some of the spikes I posted.....perhaps thats impossible for even the experts.

 

[ARC]

To all those who believe what has already been written by a "researcher" is absolute "knowledge" of something...

Remember this...

The act of research... IS... in itself... an admittance of NOT KNOWING.

heh

 

[Blak bart]

https://www.flkeysnews.com/living/article79622617.html this will be interesting.....it tells the tale of the fly.....my business partners grandfather salvaged the fly in the late 50s-early 60s. They recovered lots of spanish treasure also. Seems the fly came to rest on the same spot as infante 1733. Only the fly wrecked in 1805 !! Im sure that a t-net member has a lease on infante.....I'd bet the flys copper alloy fasteners have been found on the infante wreck site. Even saying that......i still believe that there is a number of copper fasteners found on these mainly iron fastened galleons that aren't from cross contamination of sites. Im not sure how they get there but not all sites are contaminated like infante. Like ARC says there are many examples from the 1715, 1733, and others like the winchester 1695.....that can't be accounted for if the 1770 rule is absolute !! Im also a boatbuilder in today's day and age and I have definitely had to scrounge up some un matching fasteners to complete a stage and keep on schedule. Wait for a box of stainless torx heads....or use a dozen cheap drywall screws to finish fastening some deck boards and move on to the more important fiberglassing. That kind of thing has always happened throughout boat building history......thats human nature and improvising to get the job done. The story of the fly is a great one too....enjoy !!

 

[ARC]

https://www.flkeysnews.com/living/article79622617.html this will be interesting.....it tells the tale of the fly.....my business partners grandfather salvaged the fly in the late 50s-early 60s. They recovered lots of spanish treasure also. Seems the fly came to rest on the same spot as infante 1733. Only the fly wrecked in 1805 !! Im sure that a t-net member has a lease on infante.....I'd bet the flys copper alloy fasteners have been found on the infante wreck site. Even saying that......i still believe that there is a number of copper fasteners found on these mainly iron fastened galleons that aren't from cross contamination of sites. Im not sure how they get there but not all sites are contaminated like infante. Like ARC says there are many examples from the 1715, 1733, and others like the winchester 1695.....that can't be accounted for if the 1770 rule is absolute !! Im also a boatbuilder in today's day and age and I have definitely had to scrounge up some un matching fasteners to complete a stage and keep on schedule. Wait for a box of stainless torx heads....or use a dozen cheap drywall screws to finish fastening some deck boards and move on to the more important fiberglassing. That kind of thing has always happened throughout boat building history......thats human nature and improvising to get the job done. The story of the fly is a great one too....enjoy !!

Drywall screws ? ? ?

Remind me not to let you fix my boat :P~

 

[releventchair]

It is fair to say there is scarce confirmation of copper fasteners in older Spanish wrecks that are original build fasteners.
Mainly because , we don't have Spanish builders reference of use.

But then we get someone like Bart , a blacksmith or carpenter or mate tasked with repairs , and the materials at hand are going to factor.
Spanish ships (I'm by no means saying all) carried ingots of copper among other metals.
Copper melts before iron , and a drift wood coalbed being encouraged by a bellows is going to be more expedient in time and fuel using metal that will melt and be worked easiest , but still function for the task at had by it's qualities.

I don't build wood craft. But have repaired failed fasteners elsewhere where shear strength , elasticity , and malleability factored.
We use soft shear pins where a failure is better than it not failing too.
Worn from stress holes need a bigger diameter fastener. Do we carry spares of every size? Or reduce diameters of larger ones to suit a fit? Then ability and ease of reduction will inspire consideration of material options from what is available.
The evolution is understandable.
The timing and infrequency prior to commonality is the contention.

Interesting , the layers of multiple wrecks on the same site. Indeed , cross contamination occurs. And contamination from beyond.
Let's hope the subject gets more light shed on it in future recoveries as an individual study where individual wreck dates are confident , and contamination /blending is reduced by isolation..



Yes I'm speculating.
It's a hobby at times. Not a career. Otherwise I'd insist a confirmation of a given spike from a given wreck by provenance of the person who placed it.
Which is no fun.

Here's a spike!


If old mariners had duct tape available , would they have used it?

 

[Alexandre]

I was answering to several people, yes.

I don't believe I said any of that anywhere alexandre ?? Perhaps your mistaking me for someone else's post. Your quote that is attributed to me says nothing of what you are talking about ?? In fact it is agreeing with you on the point of cross contamination of 1733 sites ?? Right ?? You may be mistaken wavejunky 757s comments or another posters comments for mine. I have been more than respectful and even thankful for your contributions.....and every one else's for that matter. Your contributions are appreciated here, but I'm not sure who exactly your last post was directed at......im thinking you quoted me but meant someone else ??

 

[Alexandre]

Having to chose between sites being worked by treasure hunters on a very specific location, on two fleets from 1715 and 1733, and dozens other excavated around the world by archaeologists AND all the lists of shipbuilding regarding Spanish ships pre-1770s, I would not chose the former as reliable.

Professionaly, if asked my academic opinion, I would go for either cross contamination or someone "salting the site".

Sorry, folks, that is how it is.

I don't see these spikes coming up ON OTHER TYPES OF WRECKS... So wtf.
.