Die Punches

D

divewrecks

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Sep 7, 2004
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This explains why "features" of a coin remain consistent event though overall orientation often varies significantly between different die sets:

"Punches are handcrafted hardened steel tools used to individually impress small elements of the coin design into a die. Sort of like small "branding irons" each punch would be used to hammer a specific image or letter into a block of metal that would become a die. For example, there was a punch for the pomegranate, another for the lion, one for the castle and others for each of the letters. Major elements of the design as the columns and the outline of the shield were cut into the die by the diemakers without the aid of punches."

Does anyone know if there are surviving examples of punches or complete dies? I think it can safely be assumed that anything exposed to ocean immersion (shipwreck) would have deteriorated beyond recognition.

Stan
 

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From what I've read, an occasional punch set went down in a wreck, requiring new ones to be sent. As far as the coin stamping dies, they were usually destroyed at the mint under close supervision. Not sure what they did with the punch sets though....
 

Punches were used for the lettering and for parts of the overall design.

Some "die breaks" are not breaks in the planchet die, but cracks or breaks in the punches used to punch the die.

The use of punches accounts for a lot of the deep areas around large designs on the cob coins. They are seen on the dies as raised areas around the punch, and were usually filed off gradually to leave a flat die surface on the finished die. If they are not, background shapes are sometimes produced by the die shafts.

But this is not the end of it. Some die sets were made contemporously at the colonial mints. They were probably made there by being engraved, punched from a pattern, or filed down to shape. A large clear glass hemisphere was probably used as a early magnifying glass by the engravers to do the detail work.

Other die sets seem to have originated from Spain. I have seen one, and this is probably what most looked like: Another hemisphere, this one of iron about 10 inches in diameter, with the letters and shapes engraved into it in Seville, or by some other manufacturer. These master dies could be used to shape soft metal punches that could then be hardened, and used to puch the soft metal dies. Larger parts such as the crosses came directly from Spain, and if broken, might be used until replaced, or a new one was fabricated.

This system seemed to operate from the late 1500's all the way through the early screw press era of the 1760's. When they began to work with portraits, they must have went over to some different system, probably originating from Germany. They may have simply used larger punches, but they seem too regular for that.
 

I,m sure, the queen of Spain ( Sofia ) gave Mel Fisher a complete die set for his museum and
Mel returned one the Bronze cannon from the Atocha which now sits outside the archives of
Seville at the same time.
Ossy
 

Very Interesting Stan, what do you think ? contemporary fakes ? I'm trying to find what dies's Spain gave him.
Sam
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Very Interesting Stan, what do you think ? contemporary fakes ? I'm trying to find what dies's Spain gave him.
Sam
Click to expand...

I ordered the book that was referenced that Robert Daley wrote. I need to do some more study before I develop an opinion. I would be interested in knowing what you find out about the dies. I wonder if they were cob dies or milled dies?

Stan
 

Sam, here's an old report from down your way.....Stan (No, I hadn't seen the site you posted)



Australian Institute for Maritime Archaeology
NEWSLETTER
Volume 17, Number 2, June 1998

COINS SEIZED FROM FAMED TREASURE HUNTER, KEY WEST, Fla. (Reuters) From SUBARCH 26 April 1998: Posted by Brian W. Kenny: Experts examined gold coins seized from the shop of a famed Florida treasure hunter to see if they were counterfeit, a state prosecutor said Thursday. State investigators raided Mel Fisher's Key West store Wednesday looking for evidence that Fisher was selling forged coins as items from real treasure wrecks. "We seized 25 to 30 gold coins that appeared to be similar to one that we believed was a counterfeit," Monroe County State Attorney Kirk Zuelch said. "The investigation is continuing. There have not been any arrests to this point." Fisher, 75, struck it rich in 1985 when his son, Kane, discovered the wreck of Nuestra Senora de Atocha, a Spanish galleon that sank in 1622 about 40 miles west of Key West. Coins and jewellery from that wreck and others are sold at Fisher's store and others throughout the Keys, a 100-mile archipelago off the southern tip of Florida where dozens of Spanish treasure galleons were sunk centuries ago. The suspect coins were not being passed off as items from the Atocha, but as coins from another wreck, dubbed C-2044, Zuelch said. The investigation began in January when a consumer complained that a $5,900 gold coin purchased at Fisher's shop had turned out to be a fake. Zuelch said his office took the coin to three experts who "advised us that this was not an artifact from a Spanish fleet." On Wednesday, an undercover investigator purchased a similar gold coin at the store. Investigators from Zuelch's office and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement immediately executed a search warrant. Treasure experts say the wreck Fisher claimed the coins came from did not carry gold coins, Zuelch said. Fisher did not return a call to his office Thursday seeking comment. "We're pretty much not worried about anything," said one of his assistants, Star Ehler. Fisher's son Kane was captain of the ship that discovered the Atocha wreck off the uninhabited Marquesas keys west of Key West in 1985. The wreck contained an estimated $400 million in New World riches including silver and gold bars, gems, gold Chains and fused lumps of silver coins. Another of Fisher's sons, Dirk, drowned 10 years earlier with his wife, Angel, while looking for the Atocha. They were trapped when their salvage ship capsized.
 

I couldn't find the referenced results chart and coin pictures. Stan


Coin Analysis Worth Nearly $70,000
February 16, 1999

Non-destructive analysis of gold coins at Element Analysis Corporation (EAC) helps 10 individuals recover nearly $70,000. Representatives of Mel Fisher's Treasure Sales Shop pleaded no contest to selling counterfeit 18th -century Spanish gold coins as a result of a fraud investigation by the Florida State Attorney's office.

According to Paul Meyers, investigator with the State Attorney, the analysis provided by EAC was crucial in convincing Mr. Fisher's corporation to enter into a plea agreement.

Mel Fisher, one of the world's most celebrated treasure hunters, is best known for his discovery of the Nuestra Senora de Atocha, a Spanish galleon that sank off Marquesas Keys in 1622.

EAC examined four authentic 18th -century Spanish gold coins that were provided by the Florida Department of State Division of Historical Research and one suspect coin. The authentic coins were all 90 to 93% gold with a relatively high silver content (6 to 9%). The suspect coin was 96% gold and 4% silver.

These results are, according to coin experts contacted by the State Attorney's office, what would be expected for a modern forgery.

The Florida State Attorney's office contracted EAC for these analyses because the laboratory is able to scan for 72 elements simultaneously without destroying the sample. In this case, it was also important that results be provided within 24 hours.

Element Analysis Corporation is a high-technology testing laboratory specializing in trace elemental analysis utilizing Proton Induced X-ray Emission (PIXE) for samples including solids, liquids, filters and wipes in a wide variety of matrices. EAC has been using PIXE analysis to provide this type of rapid (same day to 10 days), non-destructive testing since 1979.

To view pictures of the Spanish gold coins and see the results chart visit our web site at: www.elementanalysis.com.

Interview Contact: Dr. J. David Robertson, Chief Scientist. Tel: 1-800-282-7493 or 1-606-254-5115. Email: [email protected]

Element Analysis Corporation
101 Venture Ct. Ste. B-1
Lexington, Kentucky 40511
 

Other articles from a decade ago on the Fisher fake gold coin bust. One thing I thought was funny in one of the articles was this statement "Fisher said he plans to fly Sunday to a mint in Mexico City to try to find the dies used to make the coins centuries ago."

Stan



http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jam3/atocha/mel.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/27/b...ss-hunter-admits-sale-of-fake-gold-coins.html

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20125524,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,139125,00.html?iid=digg_share

http://airwolf.lmtonline.com/news/archive/050898/pagea11.pdf
 

I think the key is that they are talking about gold coins from the 1733 fleet. There is a pretty good picture that shows a group of gold coins from the 1733 fleet.

I think this is one of the fake kind they are talking about:






The only set of cob planchette dies I have seen from a museum have a 1680's obverse Mexico 8 real on one side and what looks like a reverse 1720's Seville 8 escudo on the other side. I don't know if this is the set they were given.
 

This is possibly a fake. It was mysteriously posted here in Todays Finds by a respected member a few years ago and then deleted and the member quit TN. I think his name was Grubstakes or something simlar. He is (or was) a spokesperson for Whites and has made some tremendous finds of his own. This picture is still used on a popular treasure site.
 

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Here is the link. I may be wrong about it being a fake. Maybe it was only a suspected fake. Im trying to search for the name of the book that talks about the fraud investigation. It was mysteriously posted in TN's Todays Finds years ago with no explanation and then deleted. :icon_scratch: Its the second one down. http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/Sp-Gold.1.html
 

Yup, it's in the book (great book by the way). Not an exact picture of this bar, but it has all of the markings that the text associates with the fakes.

Stan
 

Good story, I've read it several times in the past. Note that he never says that Fisher's coins were not fake. He just says that there were authentic ones recovered from the 1733 fleet. I think Bob was trying to deflect some of the heat off of his friend Mel. As many of you know, Bob wrote a book about Mel's life called "Dreamweaver".

Stan
 

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