did swift have 3 groups of mines

I guess your speaking in general terms of following the ridges. They are not all connected... in other words the buffalo would have to come down for licks and water sources. Just looking at the topography of East KY, other than the Pine Mt. ridge, at some point you have to come down to get up to the next ridge.
 

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Licks abound(ed) on the ridgetops, as well as water, which was in great supply. Businessmen today make handsome livings off the water that flows from the mountains only a few yards from the crest and has done so for centuries. I take it you have never ridden a four-wheeler ATV for miles and miles along the tops of ridges in Pike, Floyd, or Letcher county without ever coming into a valley. I'm not saying travel was exclusively at higher elevations, but the shortest distance and quickest route between two points was definitely along the tops of ridges. The connecting point for these ridges was a few hundred yards below Pound Gap at Payne Gap. Evidence of the game trails which spread out from that point still exists today, beaten deep into a gently sloping, almost level path, 8 to 10 feet in width.
 

jim bridger said:
Licks abound(ed) on the ridgetops, as well as water, which was in great supply. Businessmen today make handsome livings off the water that flows from the mountains only a few yards from the crest and has done so for centuries. I take it you have never ridden a four-wheeler ATV for miles and miles along the tops of ridges in Pike, Floyd, or Letcher county without ever coming into a valley. I'm not saying travel was exclusively at higher elevations, but the shortest distance and quickest route between two points was definitely along the tops of ridges. The connecting point for these ridges was a few hundred yards below Pound Gap at Payne Gap. Evidence of the game trails which spread out from that point still exists today, beaten deep into a gently sloping, almost level path, 8 to 10 feet in width.
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Yep, that is why my handle is KY Hiker and not KY 4wheeler :happysmiley:
 

I believe there are 3 groups of mines, as you know RGB. Lower, Upper, and West, and I believe the West mines are further North than the Upper mines. From my perspective, if you tell me to go west of the forks of the Big Sandy, I'm goin to the point where the Big Sandy turns into the Tug & Levisa. Anything above that are forks of either the Tug or Levisa.
 

This goes back to my previous thought, does upper mean up the stream, up North or up in elevation? Same with lower... its all in how it was meant when written.
I have also been wondering on everyone's thoughts on this. The 1812 earthquake at New Madrid could have caused some covering up of what was already purposely hidden? A rock slide during that event could easily cover up the entrance.
Also, what were the Latitude and Longitude given in some journals? I would think a ship captain would be very proficient with a sextant.
 

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Remember at Swifts time you could get latitude pretty easy, it was longitude that couldn't be had with any degree of accuracy...until a good clock was invented, the English Admiralty knew this and had a huge reward for the first person to come up with a good clock for figuring longitude. Swift had to do some very very complex calculations to find longitude for his location. Then what Meridian do you use? there was one in England, slightly different than Greenwich, then the was one of the coast of Europe in the Atlantic, and even one in Philadelphia.

The New Madrid quake is a good thought, it could have changed a lot of things...The Balanced rock could have fallen as could the remarkable rock...which no one seems to be able to find..it could be because its in the bottom of a creek.

I agree that there are at least 3 mines..maybe more.
 

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jim bridger said:
Licks abound(ed) on the ridgetops, as well as water, which was in great supply. Businessmen today make handsome livings off the water that flows from the mountains only a few yards from the crest and has done so for centuries. I take it you have never ridden a four-wheeler ATV for miles and miles along the tops of ridges in Pike, Floyd, or Letcher county without ever coming into a valley. I'm not saying travel was exclusively at higher elevations, but the shortest distance and quickest route between two points was definitely along the tops of ridges. The connecting point for these ridges was a few hundred yards below Pound Gap at Payne Gap. Evidence of the game trails which spread out from that point still exists today, beaten deep into a gently sloping, almost level path, 8 to 10 feet in width.
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Just to send home my point here is a quote from one of the journal versions.
'When Munday was strong again we departed from Alexandria. Guise and Jefferson, men i know as strudy hunters and able to stand hardship, went with us, and we had ponies and provisions. We reached the Big Sandy River after much hardship, but without mishap.
Munday knew the trails and the habits of the Indians so well that we were able to avoid them. From there we traveled west through a hilly country, following the creek bottoms until we came to a rocky country that looked like the end of the world.
A turbulent river was before us, and following its windings from the heights we came to the mouth of a large creek. Our path fell rapidly to the creek, which has small branches running through deep ravines having great cliffs rising on either side. On the opposite side of the creek from where we were the land rose up to a cliff that stood far back from the creek, and this cliff has a great hole in its side near the top. We called that the "lighthouse" we could see clear through it, and see the sky beyond.'
It doesn't sound like they followed the ridge tops to me....

'Munday did not know where we were, but after following the creek on a southwest course, he recognized the hills on the opposite side, and said that if we were over there he knew how to reach the Indian trace, which was some miles below, and having reached the trace he would know how to go to the mine. He said that we had to go through a myrtle thicket and then down a flight of steps that the Indians had cut in the side of the cliff at the top of it; and that across the creek from the foot of the cliff at that point and in the cliffs of the other side was the mine.
We crossed the creek by a natural rock bridge, and Munday led us to a place that the Indians used for a camping ground, and for games when on their hunting trips. This was not the time of year for them, and we did not see any of them. We camped there, and a creek flowed by our camp. When we went out with Munday again he could not find the myrtle thicket, and we came again to the rock bridge, and from there we went down a rocky branch, and there were vines closing the entrance mouth of the branch.
We camped in this branch and kept our horses there. We could leave them there grazing while exploring the country, because the cliffs made an enclosure except for the entrance, which was closed by grapevines. Munday could not find the cliff where the mine was, but one day he called out to us and said: "here is the myrtle thicket, i know the way now" Through this thicket we reached the steps in the cliff. From there i can point to the mine." It was hard to get through the thicket. We could not take our horses, and we stumbled many times and had to fight and cut our way. We got to the Indian steps which are cut in the side of the cliff. You can stand on top of the rock there and look across the creek, and to your left the creek cuts through the cliff, and the cliffs in front are shapes of a half-moon.
Just above the creek, on the other side, there is a ledge, and higher up another ledge, and up near the top of the cliff a third ledge, and between the second and third ledges Munday said was the opening to the mine. Now we crossed the creek and climbed up to the second and third ledge, and then we went west a couple of hundreds yards and found the mine. There was a big rock that looked like a buffalo sitting down, resting on the slope within a few hundred feet of the opening to the mine. We cut our names on that rock, Swift, Munday, Jefferson and others.
We got ore and we smelted in a rock house which is in the second ledge. This rock-house faces the sunrise, and looking out there is a branch of a creek that comes in from the southwest and just below the mouth of that branch are three monument rocks, one large one, and two small ones. They are layers of rock and they taper to a point at the top.'
 

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I keep getting the 404 error...any ideas?...sure would like to see this.
 

Curtis said:
I keep getting the 404 error...any ideas?...sure would like to see this.
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It opens right up for me, I read it when I got home earlier. Make sure you have a PDF reader? I right click and open in new window...Thanks again 1320!
 

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this is realy great info guys this is what i wanted to see it helps everybody to have these discussions keep it comeing i have learned things as i hope others have thanks
 

I keep catching myself halfway down a rabbit hole, doing research on related topics. Its very easy to get overwhelmed in information or distracted by a related topic. Just the traces alone could take years to figure out. The Shawnee had their own, the Cherokee as well, seems the Delaware got down this way too. It looks like the only trace they all used was the 'warrior's path', all the side traces were used by individual hunting and war parties. Dozens of them that are not documented but became pioneer roads later.
 

franklin said:
Yes, but would not Pigeon Water Cave be considered the Lower Mines. If so where are the Upper Mines were Swift says they went a considerable distance West of the Forks of the Big Sandy. How many forks of the Big Sandy are there? At least five I think? Most likely the Fork at Louisa, Ky.
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Here is my take on the way they thought of upper and lower in those days . Water run's down stream regardless of the direction of a compass or a sexton which would have been the tool they would have used to determine location in those days. Even though you are going south you are going up the Big Sandy or Great Sandy as it was referred to in some accounts. Depending on the amount of rain fall in any given area at the time they was passing through would have a bearing on what they would call a fork in the river. That being said I count possible 4between Louisa and Paintsville. Just My $.02 worth!!
 

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Ky Hiker
You said I have even wondered if upper, middle and lower could be a reference to the KY. River's three forks? or the Red River's 3 forks?
Why do you wonder when Way Bills and Maps make reference to the Great Sandy or Big Sandy ???
One of the legends I have seen made reference to an alternate route they used sometimes that stated them coming through the Kanaha river which is in the Charleston W.Va. area. and lays southeasterly toward Beckley.
 

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Ken S. said:
Ky Hiker
You said I have even wondered if upper, middle and lower could be a reference to the KY. River's three forks? or the Red River's 3 forks?
Why do you wonder when Way Bills and Maps make reference to the Great Sandy or Big Sandy ???
One of the legends I have seen made reference to an alternate route they used sometimes that stated them coming through the Kanaha river which is in the Charleston W.Va. area. and lays southeasterly toward Beckley.
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I refer to the Red and KY rivers because they both lie 'West a considerable distance' of the 1st major fork of the Big Sandy and they both have 3 forks in them (think Turkey Foot symbol and upper middle and lower mines). Also you will notice in most journals that the Sandy is the last named landmark before they separate into 2 groups. After that there are references to 'we named that creek _____' and 'we came upon a very rocky stream that was very clifty'. I think in 1760-67 nothing West beyond the Sandy was named by the English Colonies. I also discount versions of the journal that make mention of them coming by way of Ft. Pitt (Pittsburgh) because the Ohio River would be the way to travel from there to 'the mouth of the Big Sandy'. If they traveled by land they would have come right through what is now Moundville, WVA. There were too many landmarks and curious mounds and Indian workings for them not to mention them coming that way. In my head and looking at a topo map of VA, coming from Alexandria and passing through Cassleman's (Castlewood,VA) heading to the 'forks of the Big Sandy' ...Pound Gap makes sense, the Breaks makes sense and if they needed an alternate route or Southern route Cumberland Gap makes sense. Its basically a choice of dealing with the Shawnee (North) and Cherokee (South) as far as hostility.
 

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