Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

[Vox veritas]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Spain has no more of a claim to the gold than Germany does to the gold stolen by Nazis during WWII......

Exactly.

Following this philosophy, U.S. must return the oil of Iraq and the Indian lands of the far west. In addition to the copper business in Chile, etc. etc. and the story would never end.
I forgot: Spain will have to return Olivença to Portugal and the UK, Gibraltar to Spain. In turn, Rome reclaim his possessions in Iberia, France, etc. Greece, Sicily and the Phoenician Cadiz. Canari Indians of Ecuador to the Incas of Cuzco. Please Be consistent. The history of all conquests is full of blood, slavery and abuse. Not excludes the U.S. in the last 200 years.
VV

 

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[Vox veritas]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Spain has no more of a claim to the gold than Germany does to the gold stolen by Nazis during WWII......

My friend
who financed Hitler? Many Wall Street bankers.
Learn to know the real story. The hidden history.
VV

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Spain has no more of a claim to the gold than Germany does to the gold stolen by Nazis during WWII......

Exactly.

Following this philosophy, U.S. must return the oil of Iraq and the Indian lands of the far west. In addition to the copper business in Chile, etc. etc. and the story would never end.
I forgot: Spain will have to return Olivença to Portugal and the UK, Gibraltar to Spain. In turn, Rome reclaim his possessions in Iberia, France, etc. Greece, Sicily and the Phoenician Cadiz. Canari Indians of Ecuador to the Incas of Cuzco. Please Be consistent. The history of all conquests is full of blood, slavery and abuse. Not excludes the U.S. in the last 200 years.
VV

US buys the oil, the majority of the Indian lands were acquired through treaties in exchange for goods, lands and peace, even though it is true we did not live up to many of the terms in the treaties at the time None of what you claim was found on the bottom of the ocean by a private companynot the U.S. government, abandon for 300 years. Spain has the same technology but was not trying to recover it.........

 

[VOC]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

"How do you going to get it back at such depth with no modern technology? with a huge bell?"


Odyssey is not useing new technology to recover, ROV's have been arround for at least 30 years and before that SORIMA and Risdon Beasley both had great succsess in grabbing wrecks in deep water.

The truth is Spain was not interested until someone else put in all the hardwork to research, search, locate and recover the coins.

If they are so keen why were they not activally looking.

If they do have to give them back, I hope they put them back on the seafloor and then we will see how keen Spain is to recover them !!

 

[Saturna]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

How do you going to get it back at such depth with no modern technology? with a huge bell?

Arch

These coins were out of reach to anyone until around 20 years ago or so. Spain could have contracted Odyssey, or someone like Odyssey to retrieve these coins for the last 2 decades.

They could hire someone TODAY to find other lost shipwrecks with treasure, but they don't.


Easier to let someone else do the work, and then call the slimeball lawyers.



**Update. HA, you beat me to it, VOC.

 

[Tuberale]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

RE: the title, I don't know any has been returned.

The real question in this thread seems to be ownership of shipwrecks. That's simple. According to maritime law, shipwrecks remain the property of the original owner and/or country which lost them.

There are exceptions.

If a shipwreck occurs in "territorial waters", it belongs to the country whose waters include the shipwreck, thereby maintaining soveriegnty. But I have read nothing to indicate this wreck was found in Spanish waters.

Many countries now claim 200 mile water territory. That means a wreck within 200 nautical miles of their soil belongs to that country.

But it wasn't always that way. In my lifetime, I recall that the United States did not declare territorial waters until the last 100 years, and I believe that was more to ensure certain submarines with multiple warhead didn't park off U.S. shores.

Maritime law typically has stated shipwrecks "abandoned" for over 100 years were fair game for anyone wishing to salvage them. Marine archaeologists have attempted to make all shipwrecks over 50 years old archaeological sites, and may have succeeded by this date.

The fact remains that billions (trillions?) of $ have been lost in the oceans of the world, and mostly remain there.

Robert Marx in "Shipwrecks of the Western Hemisphere" has interesting exploration of this point.

American law was not received intact from on high. American courts interpret laws and the American Constitution. But they ONLY interpret the cases brought before them. They do not deal with hypotheticals. Each case has its own merits.

I have no personal experience with Spanish laws. But Maritime Law deals extensively with salvage and property lost in shipwrecks. I would suggest researching International Maritime Law would be the place to begin with this particular case.

 

[Vox veritas]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

"How do you going to get it back at such depth with no modern technology? with a huge bell?"


Odyssey is not useing new technology to recover, ROV's have been arround for at least 30 years and before that SORIMA and Risdon Beasley both had great succsess in grabbing wrecks in deep water.

The truth is Spain was not interested until someone else put in all the hardwork to research, search, locate and recover the coins.

If they are so keen why were they not activally looking.

If they do have to give them back, I hope they put them back on the seafloor and then we will see how keen Spain is to recover them !!

Each country is free to do whatever they want with their cultural heritage, but this does not entitle others to take it without permission.

 

[jeff k]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

"Many countries now claim 200 mile water territory. That means a wreck within 200 nautical miles of their soil belongs to that country."

Not so. The Law of the Sea does not say that, and no country has ever claimed ownership because a wreck is in their EEZ. They may claim ownership of their warships in any waters, but can they claim ownership of commercial cargoes on those ships. That is what is before the court in the Black Swan case.

By the way, about 29% of the silver coins on the Mercedes belonged to the King, but Odyssey only brought up about half of the coins. The King's money is still on the bottom.

 

[trinidad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Vox said: "Each country is free to do whatever they want with their cultural heritage, but this does not entitle others to take it without permission".
I think this is not exactly true. Spain (and some others) has signed a Convention and, at this point, with a number of countries that signed too, is an obligation to Spain to fulfil this Convention and adapt its national laws to this Convention. I think. And this Convention forbids to do whatever you want with your cultural heritage.
The Convention doesn't force to the countries that didn't sign it.

 

[Vox veritas]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Vox said: "Each country is free to do whatever they want with their cultural heritage, but this does not entitle others to take it without permission".
I think this is not exactly true. Spain (and some others) has signed a Convention and, at this point, with a number of countries that signed too, is an obligation to Spain to fulfil this Convention and adapt its national laws to this Convention. I think. And this Convention forbids to do whatever you want with your cultural heritage.
The Convention doesn't force to the countries that didn't sign it.

My shadow (Trinidad). Spain freely made ​​a decision. So every country can do what prefer. There are countries, wisely, did not sign the agreement.
Then one should look very closely at how and why others signed.

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

"How do you going to get it back at such depth with no modern technology? with a huge bell?"


Odyssey is not useing new technology to recover, ROV's have been arround for at least 30 years and before that SORIMA and Risdon Beasley both had great succsess in grabbing wrecks in deep water.

The truth is Spain was not interested until someone else put in all the hardwork to research, search, locate and recover the coins.

If they are so keen why were they not activally looking.

If they do have to give them back, I hope they put them back on the seafloor and then we will see how keen Spain is to recover them !!

Well, if you compare the ROV with a bell used in 1500's to 1800's to make a recovery, there is a huge difference. What I'm trying to saying here is Spain never could be interested in a cargo if that cargo sank in depth water, when there wasn't a technology that they can be able to recover it. I would say Spain is interested to find sunken ships but is too expenses trying to figure out where they are located around the world. The list of Spanish ships sunk around the world during the colonial time is huge, just ask to Claudio (Vox). If Spain wasn't interested to find Spanish shipwrecks, Odyssey never had got a permission to explore.

Arch

 

[VOC]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Arch

Odyssey did not need any permission to raise these coins and have not done anything illegal.

The court case is not to apportion blame or to prosecute Odyssey it is to decide who is the legal owner of the coins under international law.

If the coins are Spain's Odyssey will probably be due a salvage award for the coins as per international law.

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to España?

Arch

Odyssey did not need any permission to raise these coins and have not done anything illegal.

The court case is not to apportion blame or to prosecute Odyssey it is to decide who is the legal owner of the coins under international law.

If the coins are Spain's Odyssey will probably be due a salvage award for the coins as per international law.

Voc

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. I said Odyseey got a permission from Spain to explore, not to remove. Odyssey said that they found the coins in International water but who can probe it.? They were tracked from the Satellite and the graphics shown the spent more time on Spain's water than international waters.

Arch

 

[LM]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Why don't the countries that Spain originally enslaved and took the metals from get in on this act?

If Spain is laying claim- 400 years after the fact- to sunken metals that they stole from Mexico, wouldn't Mexico have a priority claim to those same metals, since they originated and were stolen from there?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Spain has no more of a claim to the gold than Germany does to the gold stolen by Nazis during WWII......

Exactly.

Following this philosophy, U.S. must return the oil of Iraq and the Indian lands of the far west. In addition to the copper business in Chile, etc. etc. and the story would never end.
I forgot: Spain will have to return Olivença to Portugal and the UK, Gibraltar to Spain. In turn, Rome reclaim his possessions in Iberia, France, etc. Greece, Sicily and the Phoenician Cadiz. Canari Indians of Ecuador to the Incas of Cuzco. Please Be consistent. The history of all conquests is full of blood, slavery and abuse. Not excludes the U.S. in the last 200 years.
VV

US buys the oil, the majority of the Indian lands were acquired through treaties in exchange for goods, lands and peace, even though it is true we did not live up to many of the terms in the treaties at the time None of what you claim was found on the bottom of the ocean by a private companynot the U.S. government, abandon for 300 years. Spain has the same technology but was not trying to recover it.........

I love the way you convince yourself, That your For-fathers treated the India's proberly You Wiped them of their land and took it
off them, and the ones that survived you put on reservation's, To Die slowly, AND You Still occupy their land !!!!! and all their mineral wealth !!
We could have this argument forever. I could understand if you were fighting for the rights of Peru, But you are not !! Odyssey want the whole lot for themselves and their bottom line.
How much Nazi gold did the US take back home, Not to Mention their Scientists to build bombs !
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Vox said: "Each country is free to do whatever they want with their cultural heritage, but this does not entitle others to take it without permission".
I think this is not exactly true. Spain (and some others) has signed a Convention and, at this point, with a number of countries that signed too, is an obligation to Spain to fulfil this Convention and adapt its national laws to this Convention. I think. And this Convention forbids to do whatever you want with your cultural heritage.
The Convention doesn't force to the countries that didn't sign it.

trinidad, I see you live in Spain but are you Spanish
Ossy

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Spain has no more of a claim to the gold than Germany does to the gold stolen by Nazis during WWII......

Exactly.

Following this philosophy, U.S. must return the oil of Iraq and the Indian lands of the far west. In addition to the copper business in Chile, etc. etc. and the story would never end.
I forgot: Spain will have to return Olivença to Portugal and the UK, Gibraltar to Spain. In turn, Rome reclaim his possessions in Iberia, France, etc. Greece, Sicily and the Phoenician Cadiz. Canari Indians of Ecuador to the Incas of Cuzco. Please Be consistent. The history of all conquests is full of blood, slavery and abuse. Not excludes the U.S. in the last 200 years.
VV

US buys the oil, the majority of the Indian lands were acquired through treaties in exchange for goods, lands and peace, even though it is true we did not live up to many of the terms in the treaties at the time None of what you claim was found on the bottom of the ocean by a private companynot the U.S. government, abandon for 300 years. Spain has the same technology but was not trying to recover it.........

I love the way you convince yourself, That your For-fathers treated the India's proberly You Wiped them of their land and took it
off them, and the ones that survived you put on reservation's, To Die slowly, AND You Still occupy their land !!!!! and all their mineral wealth !!
We could have this argument forever. I could understand if you were fighting for the rights of Peru, But you are not !! Odyssey want the whole lot for themselves and their bottom line.
How much Nazi gold did the US take back home, Not to Mention their Scientists to build bombs !
Ossy

I never said our fore fathers treated the indians properly, I said for the most part they did not honor the treaties.....

Who was it that landed here in 1492 and claimed the land for their king, it was Spain, and you really dont want to talk about the Indians, considering what Spain did to the Indians when they came to the Americas, they raped, killed and tortured all they could get their hands on, destroying the Aztec, Inca and Maya civilizations as well as many other smaller civilizations......

 

[trinidad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Yes Ossy, I am. This is not a case of nationalism. It's just a trial, a public discussion about an issue to try to find out what it's all this about. I want to known the most true as possible. Nothing to do with my nationality.
Vox, my light: it wasn't an opinion. It's the effect of signing an international agreement like Convention. When a certain number of countries (and just for these countries) the Convention (except the recommendations) becomes compulsory and must be accompanied with an accommodation of the spanish (and the rest of signing countries) laws to this new "rule". If it doesn't, wet paper. That's all.

 

[Salvor6]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Ossy are you Spanish? Where do you live right now?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Ossy are you Spanish? Where do you live right now?

Dual Citizen, Yes I am Spanish And I live In Australia.
And I have a US made Sea Ray Boat