Diamonds VS Silver

[bigscoop]

If, in our search for a possible truth behind this tale, then what does it matter where this "unknown" possibility might actually be rooted? What has been turned up so far in the last 130 years of redundant investigation that validates only local possibilities? Answer - not much of anything. So why continue the turning of this same old dirt as hardly a grain of it has been left untouched with absolutely nothing but rumors and lore and wild speculation to show for it? Obviously the path to a possible alternate truth behind the tale doesn't reside here.

We also have to consider the several established discrepancies in the tale, these validating the notion that the author wasn't exactly detailing things as they may have otherwise been. So what is it, exactly, that demands that any possible truth behind the tale remain rooted in the immediate area? It would seem to me, based on the total lack of any such supporting evidence that just the opposite would be more likely since so many capable researchers have yet to turn up a single good lead after 130 years of searching through all of these local rumors and lore and histories. So in light of this why is it so important to locals that this mystery remains a local thing when all of this continued redundant local research very clearly establishes that it should no longer remain as such?

 

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[bigscoop]

Franklin,
Imagine 30 men from the local area leaving for the fabulous western territories in 1817, many of your suspects having families and friends in the area, their grand adventure undoubtedly being big news on at least local level. Now consider those extended stays out west, their absence never bringing about curiosities or concerns. Then, a year later, a few of them return, not a single reference of this huge local event being found anywhere, not in the local papers, not in family records, nowhere. In fact it wouldn't be until 1885, after the publication of the original story that all of the claims and rumors start to fly, yet even then not a single reference to any member of the party outside of what is in the pamphlet. And if, upon their alleged third trip out west they were all to never to return again then why not a single incriminating concern over them anywhere? Why no individual references to any of these other thirty men, or their grand adventure, even after the fact?


During the period in question there was something like 10 people per square in Bedford county, not nearly as underpopulated as many believe. A great deal of this population were related in one way or another and most of the residences were known. So why didn't anyone recognize Thomas J. Beale or the men he returned with upon their return to Bedford county? Why no curiosities or family concerns over their long absence? Why no details of their celebrated return, weather it be through legitimate family records or otherwise? I can only think of two possible reasons, the first being that the alleged grand adventure never took place and the second being the possibility that the men were not locals. And when we realize what such a grand adventure and secret transfer of huge wealth would have really required it becomes almost a demand. So for these reasons, and others, it is with great certainty that if this story holds any measure of truth then many of those involved, at the very least, were not local residents. I think the total lack of any credible supporting evidence to the contrary speaks for itself and can only point in two possible directions.

 

[ECS]

This is the problem with the mystery at hand, too much local clinging to the notion that all of the alleged participants must remain local lore without any significant facts to support the notion, and so it turns into a localized romance and often with obvious benefits for keeping it all localized. The mystery itself brings a lot of revenue into the local economy, etc. So for these reasons all of the local lore must be realized as nothing more then potential interesting side bars. Just WAY TOO MUCH he-said-she-said coming out of the region without any reliable or supporting evidence whatsoever...

The whole Beale story treasure hunt would have remained "local" if not for the HART brothers.

 

[Cryptography]

The whole Beale story treasure hunt would have remained "local" if not for the HART brothers.

No, not really. It did make it out of the area. Just no one spoke of it. The Harts were just the ones who were failures at it looking and never finding.

 

[bigscoop]

One of the big tell-tells is the fact that not so much of a rumor of this alleged treasure existed prior to the publication of the pamphlet, only then did all of these other side bars and investigations start coming about. Over the years there have even been claims the box and its contents have been witnessed, yet even realizing the vital importance of these items nobody thought to photograph or to document those all-important items. Again, all of these unsupported claims come through local channels and by those who had something to personally gain by pumping more life into the tale.

Every single day there are writers constructing fictional stories that are based around places they have only visited, the people they actually know in these locations being very sparse, at best. Yet with the Beale story folks quickly assume that all of the participants and the author had to be from the immediate area. Why? Clearly it is a false assumption.

I've spent years traveling around northern Michigan and up through the UP, can do it blindfolded now. But, I actually know very few people up there. Even so I can provide a lot of accurate detail about a lot of places in those different areas. So why does this Beale story and all of its participants have to remain localized when even the detail offered in the pamphlet suggest otherwise?

 

[ECS]

No, not really. It did make it out of the area. Just no one spoke of it. The Harts were just the ones who were failures at it looking and never finding.

The Harts contacted outside sources (Fabyan, Friedmans) to break the ciphers, and later, of course, the HART PAERS were published to a national audience.
Prior to their involvement, the Beale treasure hunt was minimal, which leads one to the conclusion that the people of 1885 Lynchburg considered the work as a dime novel with the ciphers as a parlor entertainment.

 

[ECS]

Franklin,
Imagine 30 men from the local area leaving for the fabulous western territories in 1817, many of your suspects having families and friends in the area, their grand adventure undoubtedly being big news on at least local level. Now consider those extended stays out west, their absence never bringing about curiosities or concerns. Then, a year later, a few of them return, not a single reference of this huge local event being found anywhere, not in the local papers, not in family records, nowhere. In fact it wouldn't be until 1885, after the publication of the original story that all of the claims and rumors start to fly, yet even then not a single reference to any member of the party outside of what is in the pamphlet. And if, upon their alleged third trip out west they were all to never to return again then why not a single incriminating concern over them anywhere? Why no individual references to any of these other thirty men, or their grand adventure, even after the fact?


During the period in question there was something like 10 people per square in Bedford county, not nearly as underpopulated as many believe. A great deal of this population were related in one way or another and most of the residences were known. So why didn't anyone recognize Thomas J. Beale or the men he returned with upon their return to Bedford county? Why no curiosities or family concerns over their long absence? Why no details of their celebrated return, weather it be through legitimate family records or otherwise?...

...and that is a major point that supports the dime novel belief.
If anyone would have had knowledge in 1823 of the Beale treasure, would it not have been Chloe Delaney, Thomas Beale Jr's mother?
Instead, she traveled to New Orleans to claim Beale's hotel and plantation.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

One of the big tell-tells is the fact that not so much of a rumor of this alleged treasure existed prior to the publication of the pamphlet, only then did all of these other side bars and investigations start coming about. Over the years there have even been claims the box and its contents have been witnessed, yet even realizing the vital importance of these items nobody thought to photograph or to document those all-important items. Again, all of these unsupported claims come through local channels and by those who had something to personally gain by pumping more life into the tale.

Every single day there are writers constructing fictional stories that are based around places they have only visited, the people they actually know in these locations being very sparse, at best. Yet with the Beale story folks quickly assume that all of the participants and the author had to be from the immediate area. Why? Clearly it is a false assumption.

I've spent years traveling around northern Michigan and up through the UP, can do it blindfolded now. But, I actually know very few people up there. Even so I can provide a lot of accurate detail about a lot of places in those different areas. So why does this Beale story and all of its participants have to remain localized when even the detail offered in the pamphlet suggest otherwise?

Do we have an idea of how many of these pamphlets were sold? I do know of people that have them.

 

[bigscoop]

There are a few copies floating about here and there but as far as actual sales, even ballpark numbers?

 

[TN_Guest1523]

There are a few copies floating about here and there but as far as actual sales, even ballpark numbers?

The last one I was looking at was about 1,000.00 dollars.

 

[bigscoop]

Keep in mind that diamond values can vary greatly depending of color and clarity. A couple of years ago I recovered a man's platinum ring with a small blue diamond in it, a little over 1/4 carat but that stone was quite valuable due its color and purity. One the other hand I have recovered other larger diamond rings that held uprising low values. So if someone was trading silver for diamonds in 1817-1822 then that person would have needed to have some knowledge in determining the value of the stones being traded for, unless this was all arranged beforehand by someone else who had that knowledge.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Keep in mind that diamond values can vary greatly depending of color and clarity. A couple of years ago I recovered a man's platinum ring with a small blue diamond in it, a little over 1/4 carat but that stone was quite valuable due its color and purity. One the other hand I have recovered other larger diamond rings that held uprising low values. So if someone was trading silver for diamonds in 1817-1822 then that person would have needed to have some knowledge in determining the value of the stones being traded for, unless this was all arranged beforehand by someone else who had that knowledge.

I think that it is possible for them to be diamonds. He had a lot of silver to trade. If it was gold bars and silver bars, why not trade the gold bars for something?

 

[bigscoop]

The gold was worth 20 times per pound than the silver was, so he would have been able to get rid of 20 times more of the load by trading off the silver. If you will notice the second shipment TJB carried roughly 900 #'s more gold but he had 2700 #'s less silver than the first shipment. So net he traded about 1800 #'s of silver for the $13,000 in jewelry. Jewelry probably weighed about 60 or 100 #'s------so TJB lightened the load by about 1700 #'s. Silver at one dollar an ounce and at 12 oz to the pound of 1800 pounds, TJB gave roughly $21,600 in silver bullion for $13,000 in jewelry meaning the silver was about 60 to 80 % pure silver bars.

But there is no way to know just how much silver he allegedly started off with on that trip? Could have been more or less in relation to the first trip. But either way, if this portion of the story is true then someone had to posses a certain amount of knowledge in order to arrange the trade. Now think of the other party involved, what were they intending to do with that much trade silver and just who in St. Louis could possibly accommodate the trade without advance notice? And second, if what Franklin says is even fairly accurate then that processed silver had to come from somewhere else other then Colorado, the slow rate of processing that much Colorado silver pretty much eliminating the party because there simply wasn't enough time to mine and process that amount, or, the silver had already been mined and processed by someone else. When we examine all of these factors and all of the required arrangements that would have had to made in advance then it becomes pretty clear that this could not have resulted from 30 simple adventurers on a hunting trip.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's something else to consider. From everything I've researched it was much easier to trade gold and silver then it was jewelry because jewelry was much harder to unload, this being dependent on too many factors such as demand, desirability of each piece, etc. Gold and silver was always in demand but jewelry was too subject to buyer likes and dislikes, and, a great deal of it could be traced unless it was broken down into stones and alloys. So, entertain this notion...what if the trade never took place and the jewelry/stones were simply part of the original source?

 

[ECS]

...and in the 1820 frontier town of St Louis who would have a large quantity of diamonds/jewelry to sell, and who would have been the potential customers for the diamonds/jewelry?
Furs were the main commodity of St Louis, the early banks there dealt with the fur trappers, and accepted fur as collateral to outfit the hunting/trapping expeditions. The same with the stores and mercantiles of St Louis, like the Kennerlys.

 

[bigscoop]

...and in the 1820 frontier town of St Louis who would have a large quantity of diamonds/jewelry to sell, and who would have been the potential customers for the diamonds/jewelry?
Furs were the main commodity of St Louis, the early banks there dealt with the fur trappers, and accepted fur as collateral to outfit the hunting/trapping expeditions. The same with the stores and mercantiles of St Louis, like the Kennerlys.

St. Louis makes for interesting study during the period in question, a major frontier town struggling to transition and to accommodate many things.

 

[Cryptography]

...and in the 1820 frontier town of St Louis who would have a large quantity of diamonds/jewelry to sell, and who would have been the potential customers for the diamonds/jewelry?
Furs were the main commodity of St Louis, the early banks there dealt with the fur trappers, and accepted fur as collateral to outfit the hunting/trapping expeditions. The same with the stores and mercantiles of St Louis, like the Kennerlys.

First newspaper west of the Mississippi, the Missouri Gazette, on July 12, 1808. Check it out and see what it was like at that time.

 

[bigscoop]

The Louisiana Purchase practically started to transform St. Louis with a single blow. The moment the purchase was made all sorts of speculators began to focus on the west, St. Louis being the primary gateway to a great deal of that speculation. These wealthy speculators were financing all sorts of parties, a couple of them even being employed with the hopes of finding a route to the Pacific so the long and costly and treacherous voyage around South America could be avoided, this being the same reason why the Panama Canal was eventually constructed.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

DYK...? New Orleans to St. Louis was known as Louisiana Territory with MOSTLY French "influence"...? DYK...? French from NEW FRANCE (aka Canada) had the Jewelry to sell to ppl in the LT... AND! WHO was the Governor of LT, later dying in "MYSTERIOUS" circumstances...? HINT: Lewis & Clark Expedition...

 

[bigscoop]

DYK...? New Orleans to St. Louis was known as Louisiana Territory with MOSTLY French "influence"...? DYK...? French from NEW FRANCE (aka Canada) had the Jewelry to sell to ppl in the LT... AND! WHO was the Governor of LT, later dying in "MYSTERIOUS" circumstances...? HINT: Lewis & Clark Expedition...

On the other hand, the real alternate answer, if there is one, might just be a stunner.