Detecting National Forest Lands

[Tom_in_CA]

homestead hunter, thanx for chiming in with all the analysis of ARPA.

Where are you getting this expanded versinon of ARPA? Do you have a link? This is the one I have read and always referred to:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/fhpl_archrsrcsprot.pdf

I'm not seeing the exact text and points that your cut-&-paste is showing. If you compare the section 7, you will see the differences. In the ARPA link I'm giving here, notice this text from section 12:

"Section 12

(b) Nothing in this Act applies to, or requires a permit for,
the collection for private purposes of any rock, coin, bullet,
or mineral which is not an archaeological resource, as
determined under uniform regulations promulgated under
section 3(1) of this Act. "

So this link does not specify that it has to be in physical relationship with a "archaeological site". It just seems to blanketly apply to federal land. But yes, if your version and interpretation is correct, then it would only apply to certain sites, not "all federal land". Ie.: the spots which have been given the specific designation of an archaeological historic monument type thing. In England, for example, they call those "registered sites". And no, not all federal land (entire parks, from border to border), are "archaeological sites" (unless so designated). There's a numbering system, etc... where indian middens, caves, battle-sites, historic houses, etc... are so-designated.

I'm not sure of the mechanical works of where someone finds the boundries of such areas. To simply say "where a historic plaque" is, of course, is vague, since that just begs the question: How many yards in every direction from there? And I suppose some ranger from a federal site could *try* to say that the entire federal land is an archaeological site. But that is illogical. Because if there is a process by which a site is deemed "archaeologically significant" (and gets a catalog # and so forth), then by LOGICAL DEDUCTION, it WASN'T and "archaeologically significant" site BEFORE THAT designation as such. Doh!

As far as your questioning the 50 year (vs 100 yr.) thing: The way I heard that come about, was that this the 50 yr. thing was more of a subsequent interpretation thing, where some places had the latitude to be more strict, if-so-stated. For example: A city can make a strict law about parking vehicles over 5 tons on certain streets (to prevent 18-wheelers from over-night-parking there). Even though, on the larger county or state level, there may be no-such street restrictions. Same for certain types federal parks/forest lands, that "went a step further" and made it 50 yrs. Perhaps someone else can chime in on that though.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Scurvy_seadog, I had to chuckle when reading your example of the forest ranger you bumped into. He had nothing but friendly "how ya doin?" type chit-chat with you, and even wished you luck, eh? Now you might THINK this means that you were doing nothing wrong, right? I mean, how can someone argue with that, eh? But I bet if you had gone in to him, or his superior beforehand, asking "can I metal detect?" , that perhaps he'd have been duty-bound to look long and hard in his books, and find a reason to tel you "no". Because so too have I seen situations of places (not unlike your example) where you can detect, and no one cares. But lo & behold, someone takes it upon themselves to go ask, and presto: all of the sudden it's something they have to "look into", etc...

This has a lot to do with psychology, and how someone presents themselves afterall. If you had had a guilty "oh no, did he see me" type look (as opposed to the casual "how ya doing?" type persona with a smile), then things might have gone differently. For example: One time a buddy and I were hunting inside a fenced old-town urban demolition site (which was located in the blighted "vice" district of our town). As we were hunting, I happened to notice a cop car doing his rounds, coming down the street. I instinctively and nervously did the human-nature thing and turned to look at him (with the "oh no, does he see us?" type look, crouching down, staring at his passing vehicle). As I did, I saw the cop turn to look at us, but he initially kept on driving. But after going about 30 yards further, he tapped his brakes, and came to a stop. Then he backed up, rolled down his window, and began the 20-questions routine (eg.: "what are you doing?" , "are you supposed to be in there?" etc...). Thus we had to leave our good spot. It then suddenly dawned on me that he had been prepared to just drive on, and pay us no mind (believe me, in this area of our town they have much bigger fish to fry!!). But because of my nervous demeanor, my making skittish eye-contact with him, etc.... it merely drew attention to us, and subconsciously registers on the viewers radar. You know, the old "gee I wonder what they're doing", and "gee I wonder if they should be doing that". Contrast to if I'd just given a friendly wave, and looked back down at my business, I bet he'd have just kept going.

 

[scurvy_seadog]

Yep your right. I has to do with psychology. You go to ask permission when you don't have to. you just subconsiencely just acknowleged his "authority" Now he has the power to go NO! You ask why? Because I said so and that is how I interpet the regulation. As just for walking in the woods hunting or enjoying the day Nothing diffrent other then a metal detector in hand. Now if I was hydroloicly mining and ripping up the forrest. We might not be having this discussion. Like My nephew who does MDing at the beach been asked many times do you have a permit? because your digging up the sand. His reply is does that need for a permit include kids building sand castles too? or just people with metal detectors? He told me after a reply like that the patrol just moves along.

 

[homestead-hunter]

homestead hunter, thanx for chiming in with all the analysis of ARPA.

Where are you getting this expanded versinon of ARPA? Do you have a link? This is the one I have read and always referred to:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/fhpl_archrsrcsprot.pdf

I'm not seeing the exact text and points that your cut-&-paste is showing. If you compare the section 7, you will see the differences. In the ARPA link I'm giving here, notice this text from section 12:

"Section 12

(b) Nothing in this Act applies to, or requires a permit for,
the collection for private purposes of any rock, coin, bullet,
or mineral which is not an archaeological resource, as
determined under uniform regulations promulgated under
section 3(1) of this Act. "

So this link does not specify that it has to be in physical relationship with a "archaeological site". It just seems to blanketly apply to federal land. But yes, if your version and interpretation is correct, then it would only apply to certain sites, not "all federal land". Ie.: the spots which have been given the specific designation of an archaeological historic monument type thing. In England, for example, they call those "registered sites". And no, not all federal land (entire parks, from border to border), are "archaeological sites" (unless so designated). There's a numbering system, etc... where indian middens, caves, battle-sites, historic houses, etc... are so-designated.

I'm not sure of the mechanical works of where someone finds the boundries of such areas. To simply say "where a historic plaque" is, of course, is vague, since that just begs the question: How many yards in every direction from there? And I suppose some ranger from a federal site could *try* to say that the entire federal land is an archaeological site. But that is illogical. Because if there is a process by which a site is deemed "archaeologically significant" (and gets a catalog # and so forth), then by LOGICAL DEDUCTION, it WASN'T and "archaeologically significant" site BEFORE THAT designation as such. Doh!

As far as your questioning the 50 year (vs 100 yr.) thing: The way I heard that come about, was that this the 50 yr. thing was more of a subsequent interpretation thing, where some places had the latitude to be more strict, if-so-stated. For example: A city can make a strict law about parking vehicles over 5 tons on certain streets (to prevent 18-wheelers from over-night-parking there). Even though, on the larger county or state level, there may be no-such street restrictions. Same for certain types federal parks/forest lands, that "went a step further" and made it 50 yrs. Perhaps someone else can chime in on that though.

Protection of Archeological Resources (43 CFR 7)

 

[fishy49]

Florida National forests are off limits. I tried and was turned down when I wrote to them... I wanted to hunt the swimming areas of Ocala National forest...

Our Give-a-mint at work. Problem is the Amercan Sheeple are asleep.

 

[Digracer]

.....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I called Friday about MDing in my local national forest lands and I was told it is strictly forbidden.......so much for the Murrell Gang gold I was seeking in Kisatchie National Forest

Dig-racer, let me give you an example of how whimsical and arbitary your method ("calling to ask") can result in. Check out this link:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...kisatchie-national-forest-image-743400855.png

As you can see, whomever you asked, might not have answered correctly. Or gives the "safe answer". Or morphs other things to apply, (since, afterall, you "might make a mess" or you "might find an indian bone", etc...). I can tell you TONS of places that were and are detected, and no one cares. Or, heck, in a case like this, where there even appears to be a specific ALLOWANCE of a given-activity. But lo & behold, someone goes and asks "can I?" and finds themselves a "no" to their pressing question.

Thus this is just the latest in many examples, of us md'r needing to look up the rules for ourselves, not put them up to the arbitrary whims, moods, and interpreations of desk-bound desk-clerks.

 

[cutty]

Dig-racer, let me give you an example of how whimsical and arbitary your method ("calling to ask") can result in. Check out this link:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...kisatchie-national-forest-image-743400855.png

As you can see, whomever you asked, might not have answered correctly. Or gives the "safe answer". Or morphs other things to apply, (since, afterall, you "might make a mess" or you "might find an indian bone", etc...). I can tell you TONS of places that were and are detected, and no one cares. Or, heck, in a case like this, where there even appears to be a specific ALLOWANCE of a given-activity. But lo & behold, someone goes and asks "can I?" and finds themselves a "no" to their pressing question.

Thus this is just the latest in many examples, of us md'r needing to look up the rules for ourselves, not put them up to the arbitrary whims, moods, and interpreations of desk-bound desk-clerks.

This is a very large National Forest that has forbidden the use of detectors except ln listed swimming beaches
*

Metal Detecting

USE OF METAL DETECTORS ON THE CHEROKEE NATIONAL FOREST

Pursuant to Title 36 Code of Federal Regulation (CFR), Section 261.50 (a) and (b) and Forest Wide Closure Order No. 344, signed by the Forest Supervisor and dated January 26, 2009 use of metal detectors, electronic apparatus and devices used for locating metal is prohibited for any purpose except in the following swimming beach areas:

•*Mac Point Recreation Area Beach

•*Parksville Beach

•*Chilhowee Recreation Area Beach

•*Indian Boundary Recreation Area Beach

•*Jacob’s Creek Recreation Area Beach

•*Shook Branch Recreation Area Beach

•*Watauga Point Recreation Area Beach

•*Rock Creek Recreation Area Beach

Definition

"Swimming Beach Area" means a developed and designated swimming area and its waterfront associated grass/sand beach area within the recreation area.

Pursuant to 36 CFR 261.50 (e) the following persons or area are exempt from the Closure Order:

• Persons with a special use permit specifically authorizing the otherwise prohibited act or omission, issued by the District Ranger.

• Any Federal, State, or local officer, or member of an organized rescue or firefighting force in the performance of an official duty.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

This is a very large National Forest that has forbidden the use of detectors except ln listed .....

Cutty, this is an extremely old post. And doing a cursory review of all the posts herein, I see that you started the initial question/topic. However, you never chimed back in to say WHICH particular NFS location you were referring to.

Since the date of this post, TH'r and I have had long duels on the subject, on other threads. I am fond of showing this link, which shows that NFS is NOT disallowed :

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

However, TH'r has chimed in with certain PARTICULAR STRETCHES of NFS (particularly on the east coast) that does indeed have some exceptions. Or ... like the cut & paste you give here: give allowance to certain areas (swim beaches, etc...). And do indeed disallow other areas.

The bottom line is: There's no prohibition, border to border, for all-NFS . If someone has a distinct and unique exception in just one in-particular zone/park of NFS, fine. Personally, I'd just print out the link I give above, and have it in case anyone asks. And yes, of course, avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments.

And be aware, that even though you've found a stretch of NFS that gives you specific mother-may-I answers to where you can hunt (ie.: has express ALLOWANCES, provided you stay at this or the other spot) , that MD'rs NEED NOT LOOK FOR or think they need "express allowances" like that. Or even my link which is an "express allowance". Instead, silence on the subject (not mentioned either way) ALSO means: Not prohibited.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Some National Forests allow it and some do not, you have to check each National Forest to see if one in question allows it, just like some state parks allow detecting and a great may do not. Many NFs out west allow detecting.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Some National Forests allow it and some do not, you have to check each National Forest to see if one in question allows it, just like some state parks allow detecting and a great may do not. Many NFs out west allow detecting.

And I would add one thing to TH'rs post: I would say that those that "allow it", ARE THOSE THAT DON'T have an express prohibition. In other words, there need not be express allowance for each one you come to. If there is silence on the subject, at the particular one you have in mind, then presto, not disallowed.

Because as seen in my link, it's not dis-allowed (barring specific locations to the contrary).

And I would also add, that ... actually , even the express allowance in my link would not have been required. Mere silent-on-the-issue means: Mere silence. But in the case of NFS, you have an express allowance (within certain parameters). Hard to argue with that

 

[Honest Samuel]

Too many federal laws and regulations. If you cannot dig up items, it is not worth searching National Forest Lands. Check with your congress members first. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[lookingharder]

Carry one of your wife's old rings and if you ever get stopped, just say you where trying to find your wife's ring. Take a old set of dentures and throw away the bottom's, have the tops in your pocket and if stopped, tell them your trying to find your toofus. Ask them to help and see how long they stick around.

 

[Clay Diggins]

My writings from two previous threads on this subject:

__________________________________

The western Public Land Forests were created by the Organic Act of 1897. Those are the National Forests. They are public lands and are open to all forms of recreation including metal detecting.

The eastern non Public Land forests were acquired under the Weeks Act of 1911. These are not true National Forests but instead are legally known as "Purchase Units". There are a few exceptions like the Ocala in Florida (Florida is a Public Land State).

The US Forest Service administers those Purchase Units. Purchase Units are usually only surface rights and being acquired property they are not public lands but instead are United States Government owned property. Usually the subsurface (minerals, water, oil and gas) is still privately owned.

Often Purchase Units are designated only. When Congress designates a Purchase Unit they set aside money to purchase the land inside the unit boundaries. Land owners are under no obligation to sell to the government so many of the lands inside most Purchase Units is still privately owned.

Until the current privately owned lands inside the unit are sold to the federal government the unit exists only in the minds of the Forest Service administrators. Those administrators are allowed to make local rules and regulations for the lands already purchased but they can't make rules for the areas not yet purchased. Most Purchase Units are a swiss cheese mix of private and government owned lands. Management of these areas is a nightmare of different ownership and rights.

The National Forests created under the Organic Act all have exactly the same laws and regulations. Purchase Units under the Weeks Act are individually controlled and laws and regulations can vary every few hundred feet.

Here a map of the Weeks Act Purchase Units. Remember that even though a Purchase Unit has been approved by Congress it doesn't mean that those areas are owned by the government.

________________________________________

The Uwharrie "forest" are not "National Forest Lands" so the CFR regs don't apply. Those regulations and laws only apply to the organic National Forests created on the public lands in the western states.

The Uwharrie is a Purchase Unit designated under the Weeks Act and administered by the Forest Service agency. This is true of virtually all the eastern "forests".

The Purchase Unit is a designated area that the United States would like to purchase surface control over. Until the lands are purchased from the private landowners the Uwharrie, for the most part, is just a line on a map. There is a lot more to understand about these Weeks Law Purchase Units that I will be addressing in the future. For now I've made this simple map of the Uwharrie to help you understand why, for the most part, the Forest Service has no right to allow you to metal detect.

In the map below

• The Uwharrie Purchase Unit "forest" is within the dashed green line.
• The dark green filled areas are the lands where the United States has already purchased some surface rights
• The hatched light green areas are still private land.
• That little red area is where the United States owns mineral rights. Only in the red area could the Forest Service allow prospecting. In all the rest of the "forest" the mineral rights are in private hands and are not owned by the United States.

A similar situation will be found in nearly all the eastern forests. These are National Forests in name only and for the most part are privately owned. I hope to be able to map these Purchase Units for the public in the next few months. For now study this map so you can understand why the Forest Service rules by local policy rather than law in these Purchase Units.

Heavy Pans

 

[sawmill man]

I wonder if it would be illegal in a gov. shutdown?

 

[franklin]

In Virginia it is strictly against the law. You can be fined in the thousands of dollars, take your vehicle, your detector equipment and jail time. I would recommend if you do not have a permit from the National Park Service or the GSA (Governmental Services Administration) to steer clear of government land.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

In Virginia it is strictly against the law. You can be fined in the thousands of dollars, take your vehicle, your detector equipment and jail time. I would recommend if you do not have a permit from the National Park Service or the GSA (Governmental Services Administration) to steer clear of government land.

Or have bail money set aside with a family member or friend to get you out of jail, night hawking even during the day is highly illegal on federal property.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... a permit from the National Park Service ....

Uhh, the discussion here was NFS. Not NPS. Two entirely different types of federal park land.

....In Virginia it is strictly against the law.....

All NFS in VA is off-limits ? Perhaps so . Got a link ? Because notice my links says NFS is not disallowed (barring specific locations that have THEIR particular section as different).

....You can be fined in the thousands of dollars, take your vehicle, your detector equipment and jail time.....

Do you know of anyone in VA, who md'd NFS land, where these imminent things happened ? I bet that any link someone could find of these things, is going to be someone night-sneaking obvious historic sensitive monuments, or someone being obnoxious and can't take a warning, etc....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... highly illegal on federal property.

Not all federal property. There's ample federal locations where md'ing is not forbidden. BLM and NFS (unless some specific location has an exception ). And sure, .... Arpa would kick in. Just don't find stuff over 50 yrs. old. But this is different than the age old oft-repeated mistaken notion that "all federal land is off-limits".

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Not all federal property. There's ample federal locations where md'ing is not forbidden. BLM and NFS (unless some specific location has an exception ). And sure, .... Arpa would kick in. Just don't find stuff over 50 yrs. old. But this is different than the age old oft-repeated mistaken notion that "all federal land is off-limits".

I never said all government land is illegal, the question was would it still be illegal during government shut down, and answer is yes, if it is illegal before a shutdown it is still illegal during a shut down.

Laws governing National Forests, parks, seashores and recreational areas:



Agency: National Forests
Website: http://www.fs.fed.us/outernet/r9/cnnf/rec/heritage/metal_detectors.html
Law: The Use of Metal Detectors on National Forest Land

The use of metal detectors has become a popular hobby for many people. Here is direction on how or when metal detectors can be used on the Chequamegon-Nicolet.

Metal detector use is allowed in developed campgrounds and picnic areas if they are not specifically closed to such activity. If archaeological remains are known to exist in a campground or picnic area, a closure to metal detecting would be posted. It is permissible to collect coins, but prospecting for gold would be subject to mining laws. However, you should know that agencies have not identified every archaeological site on public lands, so it is possible you may run into such remains that have not yet been discovered. Archaeological remains on federal land, known or unknown, are protected under law. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them undisburbed, stop metal detecting in that area, and notify the local FS office. I have included the legal citations below for your information.

The Forest Service has conducted numerous projects in conjuntion with metal detectorists and metal detecting clubs through our volunteer archaeological program, Passport In Time (PIT). The cooperation has been fun for both the detectorists and the agency's archaeologists. Locating archaeological sites becomes a joint endeavor and we learn a lot! You can receive the PIT Traveler, our free newsletter advertising the PIT projects each year, by calling 1-800-281-9176. Look for the ones where we request metal detecting expertise!

Here are the legal citations:
Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 261.9: "The following are prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property."

USDA Forest Service Manual Direction (draft): "Metal Detector Use. Metal detectors may be used on public lands in areas that do not contain or would not reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical resources. They must be used, however, for lawful purposes. Any act with a metal detector that violates the proscriptions of the Archaeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA) or any other law is prosecutable. Normally, developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed recreation sites are open to metal detecting unless there are heritage resources present. In such cases, Forest Supervisors are authorized to close these sites by posting notices in such sites."

ARPA, 16 U.S.C. 470cc: "No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resources located on public lands or Indianlands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit. . ."

For more information, contact Mark Bruhy, Supervisor's Office, 68 S. Stevens St., Rhinelander, WI 54501, 715-362-1361, or email [email protected].

Agency: National Parks, Monuments, Seashores, Forests, and Public Property
Website:
Law: Title 36 Parks, Forests, and Public Property Website

PART 2—RESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION
§ 2.1 Preservation of natural, cultural and archeological resources. Website Section

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is prohibited:
(1) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state:
(iii) Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, cultural or archeological resources, or the parts thereof.
(iv) A mineral resource or cave formation or the parts thereof.
(3) Tossing, throwing or rolling rocks or other items inside caves or caverns, into valleys, canyons, or caverns, down hillsides or mountainsides, or into thermal features.
(5) Walking on, climbing, entering, ascending, descending, or traversing an archeological or cultural resource, monument, or statue, except in designated areas and under conditions established by the superintendent.
(6) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing a structure or its furnishing or fixtures, or other cultural or archeological resources.
(7) Possessing or using a mineral or metal detector, magnetometer, side scan sonar, other metal detecting device, or subbottom profiler.

This paragraph does not apply to:
(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.
(ii) Electronic equipment used primarily for the navigation and safe operation of boats and aircraft.
(iii) Mineral or metal detectors, magnetometers, or subbottom profilers used for authorized scientific, mining, or administrative activities.

Agency: USC : Title 16 - Conservation
16 USC Chapter 1B - Archaeology Resources Protection
Website: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/chapter-1B
Law: 16 USC § 470ee - Prohibited acts and criminal penalties website

(a) Unauthorized excavation, removal, damage, alteration, or defacement of archaeological resources. No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit issued under section 470cc of this title, a permit referred to in section 470cc(h)(2) of this title, or the exemption contained in section 470cc(g)(1) of this title.
(b) Trafficking in archaeological resources the excavation or removal of which was wrongful under Federal law No person may sell, purchase, exchange, transport, receive, or offer to sell, purchase, or exchange any archaeological resource if such resource was excavated or removed from public lands or Indian lands in violation of—
(1)the prohibition contained in subsection (a) of this section, or
(2)any provision, rule, regulation, ordinance, or permit in effect under any other provision of Federal law.
(c) Trafficking in interstate or foreign commerce in archaeological resources the excavation, removal, sale, purchase, exchange, transportation or receipt of which was wrongful under State or local law. No person may sell, purchase, exchange, transport, receive, or offer to sell, purchase, or exchange, in interstate or foreign commerce, any archaeological resource excavated, removed, sold, purchased, exchanged, transported, or received in violation of any provision, rule, regulation, ordinance, or permit in effect under State or local law.