Detecting National Forest Lands

[cutty]

Hi
I'm new around here but have been MD'ing since the 80's. Actually just dusting off the old Spectrum and chomping at the bit to get back out there. Anybody know the laws concerning TH'ing in National Forests? Thanks in advance.
Cutty

 

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[mole]

This is the answer I got here in PA.


-My question to them

Just wondering if recreational metal detecting is allowed in the Allegheny
National Forest. It is a hobby of mine and I will be in the area this
summerand would like to know what the rules are. Any information would be
appreciated.


-Their answer.....

No permit is required for casual one-person use of a metal detector on the
Forest. However, anything found that is over 50 years old is subject to
the Antiquities Act, which prohibits the disturbance of artifacts. Even
digging something up to see what it is, is a potential violation of the law
with a possible penalty of up to six months in prison and a $5,000 fine.
Any further questions please feel free to email me back or give us a call
at (814) 723-5150. Thank you for your interest.

 

[Born2Dtect]

Mole,
I will probably hunt the area you mentioned sometime this year. Who did you ask this question of? It sounds a bit odd.

Ed

 

[godisnum1]

I'd like a response to this question, but rather in reference to Forest areas in Missouri and Florida


Bran <><

 

[Jeffro]

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,39163.0.html

Something all of us might be interested in.

 

[kronos416]

This is the answer I got here in PA.


-My question to them

Just wondering if recreational metal detecting is allowed in the Allegheny
National Forest. It is a hobby of mine and I will be in the area this
summerand would like to know what the rules are. Any information would be
appreciated.


-Their answer.....

No permit is required for casual one-person use of a metal detector on the
Forest. However, anything found that is over 50 years old is subject to
the Antiquities Act, which prohibits the disturbance of artifacts. Even
digging something up to see what it is, is a potential violation of the law
with a possible penalty of up to six months in prison and a $5,000 fine.
Any further questions please feel free to email me back or give us a call
at (814) 723-5150. Thank you for your interest.


I asked about detecting the Allegheny National Forest and they gave me the exact response as you ..

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey Mole, I like that. So, let's say you find a 51 yr. old wheat penny. Since the mere act of metal detecting, as they say, is not forbidden, then what? I guess it's an honor system, and your own math skills at stake?

BTW, in the way you phrased your question: "is recreational metal detecting allowed?" Try it this way next time: "Is there anything that prohibits recreational metal detecting?". The way you worded it, it's almost like you're asking their permission. I mean, they can answer your question "no, just because we said so", or "no because we think you'll leave holes" or whatever. But asked the other way, puts it in context of them having to know that it is specifically addressed in writing, already.

We always want to ask if there is anything prohibiting md'ing, not "can I metal detect" or "can I have permission" etc... The latter puts them in a position to just say "no", without having a specific code, merely because their image is geeks with shovels.

 

[teverly]

They do not prohibit recreational detecting,but if you read what it says digging is prohibited.
So you would not even know if what you found is 50 yrs old or not.And the last time people asked i believe the park services defines digging as any disturbance of the topsoil.So even if you were just using your foot to scrape the surface you would be in violation.
Also from the cases that have i have read about they will confiscate your equipment,your car ect... and the cost of getting them back is just not worth it.
Again,this is the federal government.So 1 person may tell you one thing and someone else may tell you different....and then you have to woryy about how the rangers will interpret the law...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

teverly, what adds misery to all this, is when you get to a specific locale, where someone has been detecting since before the dawn of any of this came about. I mean, someone who, even as early as the 1970s, started detecting massive state parks. Hundreds of campsites, endless acres of usage over the past 100 yrs. In the 1970s, it never even dawned on them/us that one needed to even be aware of such things. I mean, afterall we reasoned, it's a public park right?

And as the years progressed, those doing so never heard/hear so much as a "boo". Now all of the sudden, in the 2000s, even though they've never been bothered, despite detecting in front of anyone and everyone, someone on a forum tells them they're doing something wrong? So they're faced with asking a ranger, and getting a "no" (from a ranger who probably never previously cared, but now has to look it up), or just ignoring forums like this, and leaving good enough alone? Wierd. I guess in their mind, they might think "why stop? I mean, had they not read a forum, they'd have never have known to even think something was amiss?

A friend of mine was one of the early people to run into a "wise" ranger. It was at Pinnacles National Monument. This was about 1980 or '81, not long after the 1979 ARPA revisions had come out. Some ranger saw him detecting, and came out to boot him. (no no, not confiscations, jail, etc.. a simple "scram", imagine that). My friend said "says who?" "why?" etc... The ranger stammered, heed and hawed, and said he'd be right back with the code. Awhile later he returned with some books, and showed my friend the 1979 ARPA wording. I don't think they got too deep into the meaning of the wording, but, as you know, it mostly concerns itself with indian stuff. So my friend objected: "The indians here had no refined metals, I'm not finding, nor can I find, any indian stuff, even if I wanted to!" My friend told him that he was, it turns out, leaving right then, but that he'd be back the next day to continue metal detecting. He told the ranger that if the ranger thought there was really anything wrong, that he was welcome to come issue a ticket at noon the next day. The next day my friend was back out detecting, and never saw a soul. No ranger, no one talked to him, etc.. Was that a wise idea for my friend to do? I dunno. Things were in their infancy then, and it seemed odd for anyone to tell us we couldn't look for modern silver coinage. I'm just reporting a true incident

 

[George (MN)]

I wouldn't risk it, because they cheat on their own laws

They tell you you can pick up coins on the surface if they are under 50 years old, but they might still say that person was wrong, or even use the ESP laws where they imprison people based on what they claim the person was intending to do. "Intent & conspiracy" to dig & steal 1 of a kind priceless antiquities of huge value. Then they may force detectorists caught to pay for several thousand $$$ worth of ads in newpapers saying turn in looters of priceless rare artifacts.

Metal detecting in National Parks, they said if they even see a fully assembled detector inside a vehicle, they would charge intent & conspiracy to steal.

Two guys were detecting in TX I think on Corps of Engineers land with permission, but some other Fed comes along & claims they're detecting too close to a demolished fort, so they're charged with intent to steal priceless relics and were told they'll be lucky to see daylight again.

Another time 2 people wanted to detect a ghost town in a National Forest & were told go ahead, but please draw a map of where it is (so they could later kick them out & get the rest). They also invaded at least 1 of their houses & took everything that might possibly have been found detecting.

Always remember that in The Land of the Formerly Free the imprisonment rate is 5 times the average country & 60% were non-violent offenses. Even if they don't put you in prison they can steal way more than your finds. George (MN)

 

[RON (PA)]

I was always told to stay away and don't even ask about the laws. If they suspect that you even have a detector in the car, they can bend their rules and confiscate your equipment. With all that land that is supposedly public recreation areas, it does not seem fair, but then again, it is the government. I would not chance it. They can bend their rules so quick, it will make you head spin. Just my two cents.

 

[kakcsdad]

i dont know if it is the same but i have stayed in a few corp of engineer parks and asked the park ranger if it was ok to hunt and they said no problem just cover the holes back up...

 

[fortbball9]

I know that in my area in Va. there are two places that you can MD in the National Forest and that is at two of the lake that have beach area where you can swim.Only the sand is where you can dig.No MD'ing in the woods at all.

fortbball9

 

[ibjeepn]

I just found this regarding the Allegheny national forest. Meta detecting is not prohibited on National Forest lands. However, you can not dig or excavate in any way without authorization (36 CFR 261.9(a)) and you can't remove anything (36 CFR 261.9(b)) especially anything of prehistoric, historic or archaeological value (36 CFR 261.9(h)).

Here is the code. http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/261-9-property-19770720

 

[wingmaster]

If you look at the federal law coins are not protected, so if you can be sure its a coin your digging you should be fine. HH

 

[Tom_in_CA]

arpa

If you look at the federal law coins are not protected, so if you can be sure its a coin your digging you should be fine. HH

Wingmaster, I assume you're referring to the verbage in ARPA that exempts coins and bullets, or something to that effect? If so, this is a common mis-interpretation of that passage in ARPA. If you read it closely, in context, it's only exempting the non-archaeologically sensitive "coins and bullets". So technically, someone could still claim that your 50+ yr. old coin is not one of the "exempt" coins.

But SERIOUSLY now dude, is anyone really standing there, looking over our shoulders, with a calculator, doing the math on the age of our coins anyhow?

 

[wingmaster]

Yes but I don't see how they could even say that as there are mint state examples of almost every coin ever made in the US, even the 1894S barber dime with 24 made is in a museum and all US coins no matter how old is still legal tender, unless of course its confederate money. If they are protected you wouldn't think the old protected ones would be able to be bought and sold no matter how they were obtained, but lets all just face it they do what ever they want this country is not as free as most would like to believe. Even England has a treasure trove law thats way better than anything we have here, you might not get to keep the items found but they pay you for them and tax free at that. If you find anything big over here you best not tell anyone or risk losing your equipment and jail time, you might not do time but it would sure cost you alot of money to stay out and your surely going to lose what you've found, I would even worry about this if I found it on my own property with our government.

Wingmaster, I assume you're referring to the verbage in ARPA that exempts coins and bullets, or something to that effect? If so, this is a common mis-interpretation of that passage in ARPA. If you read it closely, in context, it's only exempting the non-archaeologically sensitive "coins and bullets". So technically, someone could still claim that your 50+ yr. old coin is not one of the "exempt" coins.

But SERIOUSLY now dude, is anyone really standing there, looking over our shoulders, with a calculator, doing the math on the age of our coins anyhow?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The reason why seemingly common coins (even a 1916 d dime had 264k of them made!!) can still be considered "archaeologically sensitive", is not d/t the rarity or uniqueness of the specific item found. It's d/t the CONTEXT of where it was found. Even down to the specific depth it was found at, items next to it, etc.... An archie will remove it with tweezers and a paint brush, etc... And even if nothing but a common CW button or bottle neck or whatever, can deduce .... supposedly .... volumes of info on who lost it, their type of diet, lost before or after such & such fire came through (d/t whether it was above or below the ash layer), and all such sort of "sensitive" stuff. So that's why an archie gets all excited over a certain type of fish bone found at a site, of a fish that is known to only be in the waters off the coast of Louisiana, because that tells them that "there was trade with coastal Louisiana, this far north, during the civil war, thus proving the connection between such and such, blah blah blah blah.

Heck wingmaster, you wouldn't want future generations of your descendants to be deprived of such information, because you selfishly pillaged the country-side for your own fun and enjoyment, now would you?? So you see, it IS for the "freedom" of individuals. The "individuals as a WHOLE", not for wingmaster himself, in his own selfish ambitions, to hoard them for his own mantle place.

As you can see wingmaster, I jest. But I'm giving you the answer they would give you. And as much as I dislike all this fru-fru protectionism and such myself (given my chosen hobby), yet if you've ever gone to Mexico, where no such protections exist (or at least are not enforced d/t the corruption and such), and if you've ever seen the wide-spread destruction of priceless old buildings, where there's nothing to stop someone from using dynamite to blow out the walls of old cathedrals abandoned out in the country-side, in their search of treasure. Or nothing to stop someone from tearing down and repaving over history, etc.... And when you see the REAMS of trash d/t there's no environmental laws from stopping people there from simply taking their trash and abandoned cars down to the nearest ravine and dumping it. .... then you start to have an appreciation for the minutia that's implemented up here.

Oh, and by the way, if "future generations" wish to "enjoy" their history that has been deprived of being in a museum, because Tom in CA or wingmaster has dug it up already for their own collections, well then they're MORE THAN WELCOME to come "enjoy" it, by coming over to our descendant's homes, and seeing it on their mantle places there ..... right? ha

 

[wingmaster]

Yes I get that but you and I both know that if a big company wanted to build on a site and grease the right palms it will be built and paved over in a heart beat. The treasure hoard found by the guy in England I think his name was Terry he had a White's XLT was an awesome find but they will never know who or how it got there, they can guess or speculate but will never truely know. I have never sold any of my finds as I plan on passing them down to my grandkids when they get old enough and I'm sure all of us are aware that any copper or bronze coins are just wasting away as we speak, I've found plenty that are ate up so bad you can't even hardly tell what they are let alone get a date off of them. I for one could mark where it was found and the dates ect. heck I can even guess who dropped it and how it got there, if I was to bury all my coins in my back yard and then someone a hundred years from now finds them know one will ever know that I detected them other places and how they ended up there unless I was to leave a note and I have never found any note with the coins I've found.

 

[LaPlata]

While detecting in the forest I wood keep any coins I found out of sight. If a Ranger aske you just simply tell him you are Prospectingg for Gold or any other locatable minerals the Mining Law of 1872 gives you the right to disturb a 50x50 sq ft. area of which you need no permission, Operating Plan, any thing else. Detecting / hunting/ ? No you are prospecting. On public lands Forest or BLM as long as there not withdrawn from mineral exploration like wilderness area. Now the detector is a exploration tool just like a gold pan a pic or a shovel isn't it? It is to me. Like some one else said it's how you answer but don't aske just respond -if asked what ya doing.