Cut Spanish Silver - My Finds and Observations

[Steve in PA]

I have been lucky enough to have dug 15 of these quaint little pieces. Thirteen were found in Southwestern PA and two in Virginia. I consider them half coin, half relic. Between digging them myself, observing others that are posted on the various forums, and communicating with other colonial relic hunters, I have drawn a few conclusions about these pieces. Here are my thoughts. Feel free to chime in or post your cut pieces.

1. More cut Spanish Silver is found in Virginia (especially the Tidewater area) than anywhere else.
2. Cut Spanish Silver rarely turns up in eastern Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New England even though plenty of complete Spanish Silver coins are found.
3. Cut Spanish silver is found in Southwestern Pennsylvania probably because the area was claimed by Virginia in colonial times.
4. The most commonly cut Spanish coin was the 2 reale Pistereen.
5. "Portrait" stlye Spanish coins are rarely found cut, even though the majority of complete coins found are portrait. This may mean the practice of cutting Spanish silver was phasing out by 1772 when the portrait style coinage was introduced.
6. Some coins (even the thick 8 reales) were cut very professionally, perhaps by silversmiths, while others appear to be very crude "field cut" pieces. This is obvious when looking at my examples.

Here are my pieces. Hopefully I can add a couple more in 2012.

 

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[calisdad]

Pretty amazing. They must mow their lawns more in Virginia.

Did you ever find 2 pieces from the same coin?

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Steve - as you know from our previous discussions on this, I agree with all your assessments. I've dug a total of around 120-125 colonial silver coins, and nearly 100 are spanish. Out of these around 40-45 are cut pieces which is a pretty high ratio. Sorry, but I don't have exact numbers as my coins are scattered about in different displays and difficult to count. That ratio would be even higher if not for the fact that out of the recent coin spill I found 7 out of 8 were whole coins, which was highly unusual down here. My theory is that due to the tremendous amount of commerce around the waterways here in colonial VA there was a need for smaller denominations of coinage, hence the need for cut pieces. And most all were of the earlier variety as you mentioned. At some point I need to take a thorough inventory of my spanish coins and provide you with a detailed breakdown of the types and varieties. That would make for an interesting article. Also, I wanted to point out that out of the 26 hammered silver and other non-spanish silver coins that I've dug, absolutely none were cut (that I can recall) except for the quartered pine tree shilling I dug about 3 years ago. I guess cutting coins wasn't practiced during the mid-1500s thru the mid-1600s, but for some reason it was started in the 1700s. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Steve in PA]

Steve - as you know from our previous discussions on this, I agree with all your assessments. I've dug a total of around 120-125 colonial silver coins, and nearly 100 are spanish. Out of these around 40-45 are cut pieces which is a pretty high ratio. Sorry, but I don't have exact numbers as my coins are scattered about in different displays and difficult to count. That ratio would be even higher if not for the fact that out of the recent coin spill I found 7 out of 8 were whole coins, which was highly unusual. My theory is that due to the tremendous amount of commerce around the waterways here in colonial VA there was a need for smaller denominations of coinage, hence the need for cut pieces. And most all were of the earlier variety as you mentioned. At some point I need to take a thorough inventory of my spanish coins and provide you with a detailed breakdown of the types and varieties. That would make for an interesting article. Also, I wanted to point out that out of the 26 hammered silver and other non-spanish silver coins that I've dug, absolutely none were cut (that I can recall) except for the quartered pine tree shilling I dug about 3 years ago. I guess cutting coins wasn't practiced during the mid-1500s thru the mid-1600s, but for some reason it was started in the 1700s.

Bill, I think pehaps the reason that all the Spanish in your recent coin spill were complete coins is because those coins represented what was in circulation in the 1830s. I believe cut pieces had fallen out of favor by then. Also, regarding the English hammered silver pieces, I have see quite a few cut ones that were found in England, so I do believe they were cutting coins in England in the 1500s and 1600s and brought the practice with them to the New World.

 

[birdman]

Neat topic. I have only found one and that was in South Carlina about a month ago. One of my favorite digs due to the history.

 

[Iron Patch]

Steve - as you know from our previous discussions on this, I agree with all your assessments. I've dug a total of around 120-125 colonial silver coins, and nearly 100 are spanish. Out of these around 40-45 are cut pieces which is a pretty high ratio. Sorry, but I don't have exact numbers as my coins are scattered about in different displays and difficult to count. That ratio would be even higher if not for the fact that out of the recent coin spill I found 7 out of 8 were whole coins, which was highly unusual. My theory is that due to the tremendous amount of commerce around the waterways here in colonial VA there was a need for smaller denominations of coinage, hence the need for cut pieces. And most all were of the earlier variety as you mentioned. At some point I need to take a thorough inventory of my spanish coins and provide you with a detailed breakdown of the types and varieties. That would make for an interesting article. Also, I wanted to point out that out of the 26 hammered silver and other non-spanish silver coins that I've dug, absolutely none were cut (that I can recall) except for the quartered pine tree shilling I dug about 3 years ago. I guess cutting coins wasn't practiced during the mid-1500s thru the mid-1600s, but for some reason it was started in the 1700s.

Bill, I think pehaps the reason that all the Spanish in your recent coin spill were complete coins is because those coins represented what was in circulation in the 1830s. I believe cut pieces had fallen out of favor by then. Also, regarding the English hammered silver pieces, I have see quite a few cut ones that were found in England, so I do believe they were cutting coins in England in the 1500s and 1600s and brought the practice with them to the New World.

My experience is consistent with that. Dug about 20 Spanish, all pre 1800, no cut coins, and my only cut silver is from an 1800s American half.

PS: But I should add... all the coins from my hammered caches aren't cut either.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

My experience is consistent with that. Dug about 20 Spanish, all pre 1800, no cut coins, and my only cut silver is from an 1800s American half.

PS: But I should add... all the coins from my hammered caches aren't cut either.
[/quote]

Hey Iron Patch - I didn't know you had dug hammered caches. Can you post some pics or at least tell me what you found? Thanks ..... Bill

 

[Iron Patch]

My experience is consistent with that. Dug about 20 Spanish, all pre 1800, no cut coins, and my only cut silver is from an 1800s American half.

PS: But I should add... all the coins from my hammered caches aren't cut either.

Hey Iron Patch - I didn't know you had dug hammered caches. Can you post some pics or at least tell me what you found? Thanks ..... Bill
[/quote]


My hammered caches aren't cut because they don't exist.

Only one non Spanish hammered to show up here and that was a 1300s Edward penny.

 

[allen]

those are great and hope to find one myself some day !!

 

[timekiller]

I would agree on the cuts.Seems like from what I've seen posted,water is a factor & is where I hunt.Coins are rare finds on my sites but have found a few in my 3 years at it.And with the cob I found this year,my cob count is very close to my other spanish (3cobs).Here's my cut's & my only other coin not whole so throughed it in also.But believe it was snapped not cut.
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[timekiller]

Just some other to add....
I think my sites are turning out to be very early trade sites and the coinage is low value with 1reales being the norm besides the cut pieces.

 

[Don in SJ]

Nice subject, but there are complicated reasons why, I will try and respond later, still researching some old data I have done in the past on this subject. Do have one question, for those with the cut spanish (only) silver pieces, what percentage are Cross Pistareens? Bill, for the amount you have and for where you found them I would suspect the vast majority are.

Don

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Nice subject, but there are complicated reasons why, I will try and respond later, still researching some old data I have done in the past on this subject. Do have one question, for those with the cut spanish (only) silver pieces, what percentage are Cross Pistareens? Bill, for the amount you have and for where you found them I would suspect the vast majority are.

Don

You're right Don - they are. I found a pic I took about 6 years ago with just 17 cut pieces and nearly all appear to be cross pistareens (I do see one 1783 coin in the pic). And I'm sure the 25-30 others I've found since that time follow the same trend.

 

[Steve in PA]

Nice subject, but there are complicated reasons why, I will try and respond later, still researching some old data I have done in the past on this subject. Do have one question, for those with the cut spanish (only) silver pieces, what percentage are Cross Pistareens? Bill, for the amount you have and for where you found them I would suspect the vast majority are.

Don

Don,

Here are my Spanish Silver stats. A couple things stand out. 15 of my 30 complete coins are Portrait, but only 1 of my 15 cuts is Portrait. 6 of my 15 cuts are from 8 reales (40%). I believe that Bill has only found less than 5 from 8 reales out of all cuts he has found. 7 of my cuts are from Pistareens. None of mine were found anywhere near water.

(7) PILLAR HALF REALS
(10) BUST HALF REALS
(2) PISTEREEN ONE REALS
(3) PILLAR ONE REALS
(3) BUST ONE REALS
(2) PILLAR TWO REALES
(1) BUST TWO REALES
(1) COB TWO REALES
(1) BUST EIGHT REALES
(1) CUT ONE REAL (PISTEREEN)
(1) CUT ONE REAL (PILLAR)
(6) CUT TWO REALE (PISTEREEN)
(1) CUT TWO REALE (PILLAR)
(5) CUT EIGHT REALE (PILLAR)
(1) CUT EIGHT REALE (BUST)

 

[Steve in PA]

Just some other to add....
I think my sites are turning out to be very early trade sites and the coinage is low value with 1reales being the norm besides the cut pieces.

Timekiller,

Thanks for sharing your cut pieces. I forgot to mention that they turn up regularly in the Carolinas and Georgia, but still not in the numbers we see from Virginia. Your sample seems to fit the distribution we are seeing - looks like you have a pillar, a portrait, and the rest are pistareens.

 

[Don in SJ]

First off, I believe between my son and I we have approximately 50 Spanish Silver coins, NONE are cut pieces, nor any cobs. Only TWO PISTAREENS out of those totals.

My friend in a county a tad north and west of me reported in a C4 article he had found (as of 2003) 90 SPANISH SILVER COINS, 60 (1/2 REAL), 9 (1 REAL), 7 cut (COUNTERFEIT 8 Reales), 4 genuine cobs, 1 counterfeit cob. I believe I only saw TWO PISTAREENS out of his 90 Spanish Silver and they were not cut.

I think reading the Colonial Newsletter (CNL-116) gives perhaps the best explanations for why cut silver is/was so prevalent in the Tidewater areas of Md and Virginia, especially the Spanish Pistareens. NOTE: Most are probably not aware that the vast majority of "Spanish" Silver we find is by far minted in the Americas,(Mexico, Peru, Guatemala) and not in Spain, but the Pistareens were actually Spanish, how about that! Anyway, the Pistareen which by far was the major circulating coin in the early mid 1700s in the Tidewater area was a DEBASED silver coin. Not nearly as much silver as any of the New World minted Spanish Silvers...

With that in mind, Virginia and Maryland had Royal governments at that time, the people were poor and England intended them to stay that way and would not pay cash for the big export crop of the area, instead they exchanged goods, thus there was a money shortage in the region, which was aptly called the Tobacco Colonies (Va,Del,Md).

Since Virginia had not one big major seaport, but had many inlet and river landings, their commerce was dealing mostly with England but it allowed Spanish ships to sail in and "buy" Tobacco and thus the Pistareen was introduced into the area, especially closest to the tidewater ports as the most common coinage in use. Again, England would not pay for the Tobacco with cash, but instead did a trade in goods, but also considered all goods in the colonies as their property anyway.

So, one main reason for first the Pistareen being so common in the early mid 1700s was because the Spanish sailing ships would bring many with them to buy goods in the West Indies and then up into Virginia.

The reason for cutting them was of course to make change, since the vast majority were 2 Reale Pistareens, they had to make change, thus so many cut pieces in the area.

One reason the English did not commandeer the Spanish silver was because it was inferior in quality, being debased silver.

There are a myriad of other reasons, I am just giving what I think are some of the more historic reasons. If you read the article you will see that the sinking of the 1715 Spanish Fleet off the coast of Florida believe it or not is one reason of such an influx of Pistareens years later. (Starting around 1721)

The demise of the Pistareen was do to several reasons also, the best reason is perhaps once the Charles III Bust silver from Mexico City became so numerous and the fact that I believe the value on one Bust silver to a Pistareen was so much more that the Pistareen faded away and since the Bust Silver was more fractional, cutting was not needed nearly as much to make change, thus so many Half Reals in circulation.........

Reasons cut spanish silver is not found too often outside the area would be we did not have the influx of dealing with the Spanish ships at port like the South did, thus the Pistareens were not circulating in other areas to the same degree.
Remembering that the majority of cut Spanish silver are Pistareens, debased silver coins from SPAIN, not Mexico or other South America areas.

Anyway, it is a great subject, I surely am no expert on it and there is a lot of literature out there already on Spanish silver, and the CNL article is a must read................... I need to reread the entire article over again myself.

Here is the link to the Tobacco Colonies story on Cross Pistareens

http://numismatics.org/wikiuploads/CNL/Pistareens.pdf

Don

 

[Steve in PA]

Don, that makes a lot of sense as to why the pistareens were prevalent and why they were cut - a lack of half reals prior to the introduction of pillar and bust coins. There also seemed to have been a lack of copper coins in Virginia for some reason, which is why England issued the Virginia Halfpenny from what I understand. I wonder why I turn up a significantly higher percentage of cut 8 reales than they see in Virginia? All of my cut pieces were found at sites along major colonial roads that led to Pittsburgh, and many may have been lost by soldiers or travellers from Virginia, since Pittsburgh was a "jumping off' point to take the Ohio River into the interior of the country in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

 

[Don in SJ]

I wonder why I turn up a significantly higher percentage of cut 8 reales than they see in Virginia? All of my cut pieces were found at sites along major colonial roads that led to Pittsburgh, and many may have been lost by soldiers or travellers from Virginia, since Pittsburgh was a "jumping off' point to take the Ohio River into the interior of the country in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

Steve, if you look at my post you will see my friend from the county north of me that he found seven cut 8 Reales, all counterfeits. Have you ever checked to see if your cut pieces of 8 Reales are counterfeit, if so there might be something in common with the NJ finds.

I will see if I can address the copper difference, I know Bill and I had discussions on that in the past, just cannot remember right now the reasons I found in researching.

Don

 

[Steve in PA]

I wonder why I turn up a significantly higher percentage of cut 8 reales than they see in Virginia? All of my cut pieces were found at sites along major colonial roads that led to Pittsburgh, and many may have been lost by soldiers or travellers from Virginia, since Pittsburgh was a "jumping off' point to take the Ohio River into the interior of the country in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

Steve, if you look at my post you will see my friend from the county north of me that he found seven cut 8 Reales, all counterfeits. Have you ever checked to see if your cut pieces of 8 Reales are counterfeit, if so there might be something in common with the NJ finds.

I will see if I can address the copper difference, I know Bill and I had discussions on that in the past, just cannot remember right now the reasons I found in researching.

Don

Mine are all solid 100% silver. If they are counterfeits, they used high grade silver

 

[SC Keith]

Very interesting post and one of my favorite type of finds to make--Congrats on some nice pieces Steve!