Curious: Oldest dated artifact known. Book, coin or any item?

[TORRERO]

When I was in Spain we dug a lot of old coins but the earliest DATED coins were from around 1599 Vatican coins..

And just to be clear, I have also asked similar questions, if coins were not really dated until the 1400s - 1500s time frame how did they keep track of the years from 0 to 1500 ? Who determined what year you were actually in ?
The Church I'm sure had something to do with it...
and I'm not really buying the "letter on this ancient coin means X year" because what would have been the first year they started from, because before "CHRIST" there really wasn't a starting year .... or if there was what was it and why did they start all over with Christ ?
When you put a date on something, there HAS to be an assumed starting point, you don't just pull a number out of thin air and say you will start HERE..

 

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[TORRERO]

Damn those are some old coins sir. But I believe some of the ancient coins were dated long before that. But you are correct in your previous post about what I was seeking... spot on! Thanks

I knew what you were asking because I have asked the same question... Spanish coins I dug in Spain did not seem to have dates earlier than 1600s those other coins being Vatican Papal state coins ....

 

[Limitool]

The answers are in post #8

Ok sir... I re-read your post and am trying to digest it. But.... it is possible that by the hands of man an item can be physically dated with a BC date...? Right? Or should I try again?

 

[Red-Coat]

When we use the term ‘BC’ for "Before Christ" (and only in the Christian world) we are counting backwards from the year of Christ’s birth designated as “year 1” (although, as I said earlier, we are using the wrong start date interpolated from the scriptures). The politically correct term to avoid offending non-Christians is now ‘BCE’ (Before the Common Era) but it has the same meaning in ‘numerical’ terms.

In the Roman and Christian world, the popular concept of a calendar using Christ’s birth as the start point was pretty much unknown until AD 525 when it began to be pushed by the monk Dionysius Exiguus, who lived in what is now Romania/Bulgaria. Up until then they would have used Caesar’s ‘Julian’ calendar (supplemented by counting the years of rule by emperors) and, before that, using Rome’s foundation date as the start point.

Obviously, no item could ever carry a date expressed as ‘BC’ since that would need Christ’s birth to have been anticipated before the event.

In Territories and cultures outside the Roman and Christian worlds, the concept of ‘BC’ would have been meaningless and they had their own systems with different start dates.

 

[Limitool]

And just to be clear, I have also asked similar questions, if coins were not really dated until the 1400s - 1500s time frame how did they keep track of the years from 0 to 1500 ? Who determined what year you were actually in ?
The Church I'm sure had something to do with it...
and I'm not really buying the "letter on this ancient coin means X year" because what would have been the first year they started from, because before "CHRIST" there really wasn't a starting year .... or if there was what was it and why did they start all over with Christ ?
When you put a date on something, there HAS to be an assumed starting point, you don't just pull a number out of thin air and say you will start HERE..

Exactly... Your above post is just another way to word my original thread starter one. I'm trying hard to digest what Red Coat and Envy to the mole people responded with above. That's why I referenced Christs death as "zero" but it appears I was missing a lot of information. I think there were several dating systems being utilized at once. I'm just confused about how anything can be hand dated with a BC date outside of science based.

 

[Limitool]

When we use the term ‘BC’ for "Before Christ" (and only in the Christian world) we are counting backwards from the year of Christ’s birth designated as “year 1” (although, as I said earlier, we are using the wrong start date interpolated from the scriptures). The politically correct term to avoid offending non-Christians is now ‘BCE’ (Before the Common Era) but it has the same meaning in ‘numerical’ terms.

In the Roman and Christian world, the popular concept of a calendar using Christ’s birth as the start point was pretty much unknown until AD 525 when it began to be pushed by the monk Dionysius Exiguus, who lived in what is now Romania/Bulgaria. Up until then they would have used Caesar’s ‘Julian’ calendar (supplemented by counting the years of rule by emperors) and, before that, using Rome’s foundation date as the start point.

Obviously, no item could ever carry a date expressed as ‘BC’ since that would need Christ’s birth to have been anticipated before the event.

In Territories and cultures outside the Roman and Christian worlds, the concept of ‘BC’ would have been meaningless and they had their own systems with different start dates.

"Obviously, no item could ever carry a date expressed as ‘BC’ since that would need Christ’s birth to have been anticipated before the event."

Thank you for stating that. Common sense says that also... I was beginning to doubt mine...! So I gotta ask this now:

So when anybody looks up an ancient coins date and it show up 467 BC it's probably been converted to a modern standard possibly...? Because I've seen this online and always wondered how in the hell would anyone know THAT. Thank you.

 

[releventchair]

"Obviously, no item could ever carry a date expressed as ‘BC’ since that would need Christ’s birth to have been anticipated before the event."

Thank you for stating that. Common sense says that also... I was beginning to doubt mine...! So I gotta ask this now:

So when anybody looks up an ancient coins date and it show up 467 BC it's probably been converted to a modern standard possibly...? Because I've seen this online and always wondered how in the hell would anyone know THAT. Thank you.

To add (?) to RedCoats post..

The Origin & History of the BCE/CE Dating System

The BCE/CE dating system was first used in the 17th century and has been used since in scholarly publications read by people of all faiths and cultures in an effort to be inclusive. This system is also...

www.worldhistory.org

 

[TORRERO]

Exactly... Your above post is just another way to word my original thread starter one. I'm trying hard to digest what Red Coat and Envy to the mole people responded with above. That's why I referenced Christs death as "zero" but it appears I was missing a lot of information. I think there were several dating systems being utilized at once. I'm just confused about how anything can be hand dated with a BC date outside of science based.

I think basically things are dated based on the years of a king or emperors rule, but then Science converts that time line into something modern people can understand as a timeline, this clearly is how Red-Coat is laying this out which makes a lot of sense. Timelines for ancient civilizations probably would have been short local related to the life of important people where you lived because most people back then did not look at their lives in a GLOBAL concept.. So a Chinese guy would date his world to the Chinese Rulers of the time he was alive, as a Roman might base his on the time frame of a Roman Emperor who ruled during his lifetime..

 

[Red-Coat]

"Obviously, no item could ever carry a date expressed as ‘BC’ since that would need Christ’s birth to have been anticipated before the event."

Thank you for stating that. Common sense says that also... I was beginning to doubt mine...! So I gotta ask this now:

So when anybody looks up an ancient coins date and it show up 467 BC it's probably been converted to a modern standard possibly...? Because I've seen this online and always wondered how in the hell would anyone know THAT. Thank you.

Yes... exactly that. The cataloguing uses modern terminology to express the date in terms that will be commonly understood, not how the date would have been expressed at the time the coin was made.

Obviously it would be possible to cut through any confusion or religious sensibilities by saying a coin is "2,400 years old" but that would be a nightmare for cataloguing because next year it would be 2,401 years old!

 

[Urien of Rheged]

As metallic objects go I don't think you'll find anything older than this 4000 year old axehead that I was lucky enough to unearth a couple of years ago.
It's laughably ludicrous that academics cling to the notion that the granite, marble and stone used to cut and construct the Great pyramids where done using tools like this. I find the idea just pathetic to be honest

 

[Limitool]

Thanks Red-Coat.... Never did I think this thread would get in the weeds like it did. But I did seek to learn and that was realized / accomplished. I thank you all. Maybe I should have tried and been more clear what I was seeking in Post 1 possibly. But I believe we would have gone down this rabbit hole anyway because of what I didn't know when posting.

SO.... Mr Red-Coat (or anybody!) what is the oldest known item(s) to be dated by mankind...? Probably Post #8... right...? Hopefully I added correctly below with the years old items.

OLDEST DATED BOOK... 2893 years old: The Chinese ‘Diamond Sutra’ is indeed the oldest book carrying a physical date, equivalent to 868 BC.

OLDEST DATED WRITINGS... 3825 years old: However, the Egyptian ‘Prisse Papyrus’ dates to c.1800 BC based on its reference to the 27th year of Khufu’s reign.

OLDEST DATED COIN... 2519 years old: The oldest coin known to have a physical date is probably a Samian Silver Tetradrachm struck in Zankle (modern-day Messina) in Sicily. It carries the letter ‘A’ for ‘year one’ of their calendar, equivalent to 494 BC.

If the above is correct that's what I was curious about. If anybody can go back further please chime on in and we'll correct. That was fun....! My thanks to all.... Brad

 

[Limitool]

As metallic objects go I don't think you'll find anything older than this 4000 year old axehead that I was lucky enough to unearth a couple of years ago.
It's laughably ludicrous that academics cling to the notion that the granite, marble and stone used to cut and construct the Great pyramids where done using tools like this. I find the idea just pathetic to be honest

Thanks for sharing sir. While VERY OLD I was only inquiring about items that were hand dated by the hands of mankind. I'm assuming there is no date on your item....?

But that does lead to this.... What's the oldest hand dated tool known to man...? I bet the Egyptian writing's age above (3825 years old) wins out...?

 

[TORRERO]

As metallic objects go I don't think you'll find anything older than this 4000 year old axehead that I was lucky enough to unearth a couple of years ago.
It's laughably ludicrous that academics cling to the notion that the granite, marble and stone used to cut and construct the Great pyramids where done using tools like this. I find the idea just pathetic to be honest

I'm with you bro... I have actually been to the pyramids and I can't see how men actually made them,
you understand don't you ? that these things can't be carbon dated, so their age is estimated based on civilization remains found around them, but why couldn't they have been there like we found them, the same for the Egyptians ?
Maybe they found them there also ? No pyramide has ever been found to contain a burial or mummy or any deceased person... There is an assumption that the bodies were moved at some point in time, to the Valley of the Kings... but nobody is alive today to verify that ....
Why do we have to assume, that just because they are there... that PEOPLE built them ?

 

[Urien of Rheged]

I'm with you bro... I have actually been to the pyramids and I can't see how men actually made them,
you understand don't you ? that these things can't be carbon dated, so their age is estimated based on civilization remains found around them, but why couldn't they have been there like we found them, the same for the Egyptians ?
Maybe they found them there also ? No pyramide has ever been found to contain a burial or mummy or any deceased person... There is an assumption that the bodies were moved at some point in time, to the Valley of the Kings... but nobody is alive today to verify that ....
Why do we have to assume, that just because they are there... that PEOPLE built them ?

I don't entertain the idea they weren't built by man. I'm of the belief they where made utilising advanced but forgotten technology.

 

[TORRERO]

What's the oldest hand dated tool known to man...?

I have never heard of a tool having a date on it, accept maybe a patent date...

 

[releventchair]

Thanks for sharing sir. While VERY OLD I was only inquiring about items that were hand dated by the hands of mankind. I'm assuming there is no date on your item....?

But that does lead to this.... What's the oldest hand dated tool known to man...? I bet the Egyptian writing's age above (3825 years old) wins out...?

Ngwenya Mine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red-Coat]

... No pyramide has ever been found to contain a burial or mummy or any deceased person...

I often see people trot this out, but it’s not true. Although pyramids are obviously easier to locate than underground burials, a number of Egyptian pyramids have been found to contain sarcophagi that hadn’t been desecrated or looted and with various mummified human remains. Some examples:

The first Egyptian pyramid – the Step Pyramid of Djoser- contained a rib, humerus, foot, and part of the stomach of a mummy in its stone sarcophagus. They were not of Pharaoh Djoser himself and from unidentified multiple individuals, but the skull of a princess was also found (the first known royal to be buried in a pyramid).

The second pyramid contained the remains of the son of Sekhemkhet, who commissioned it to be built.

The ‘Red Pyramid’ at Dahshur, commissioned by Sneferu, contained his mummified remains. Sneferu was the father of Khufu, the architect of the Great Pyramid. Khufu’s remains were not found but his wife’s mummified viscera were recovered from a subsidiary pyramid.

The mummy of King Neferefre, was found in an unfinished pyramid. He had died suddenly before it was completed.

One of the most complete and best-preserved mummies found in a pyramid was identified as probably Reputnub, wife of Nyuserre, the last pharaoh to raise his pyramid at Abusir.

 

[Red-Coat]

What's the oldest hand dated tool known to man...?

I have never heard of a tool having a date on it, accept maybe a patent date...

This one probably:

 

[Limitool]

This one probably:

View attachment 2187183

Now let's not get carried away Red-Coat... you were on a roll....

 

[TORRERO]

This one probably:

View attachment 2187183

That's BCE to you !!