✅ SOLVED Crossed Cannon Hat Plate

MonkeyBoy

MonkeyBoy

Bronze Member
Feb 6, 2006
1,600
57
Virginia
Detector(s) used
V3i
Found this yesterday, so far it has not been ID'ed in any of the books. It is one piece stamped brass, looks like there were hook on the reverse. It is a lot like a crossed rifle hat plate I saw dug in he same area. Circa 1830 - 1850s. I hae checked all the books and googlrd till I can't google no more!

If anyone ha any ideas, please let me know. There were bother Artty and rifle militia in the area during the time .

Update: It is 3 1/4" by 1 3/4". It looks like it had solder marks on the reverse, typical of the small wire you see on hat plates. It is very thin, so I have my doubts about it being a belt plate. The area it came from has produced everything from very early Virginia buttons to eagle and US belt plates. First picture is the obverse and the second is the reverse.

Thanks!
 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

Attachments

  • obverse.jpg
    obverse.jpg
    85.8 KB · Views: 112
  • reverse.jpg
    reverse.jpg
    91.7 KB · Views: 191
Last edited:
Sort by date Sort by votes
This piece doesn't say "hat plate" to me. Maybe a shoulder-belt plate? The clipped corners suggest the date range you suspect.


DCMatt

BTW - I mentioned to someone on the weekend that I hadn't seen you post in a while. Nice to see you on the forum again.
 

Attachments

  • shoulderbelt.jpg
    shoulderbelt.jpg
    58.2 KB · Views: 90
Last edited:
Upvote 0
DCMatt said:
This piece doesn't say "hat plate" to me. Maybe a shoulder-belt plate? The clipped corners suggest the date range you suspect.


DCMatt
Click to expand...

We talked about that... with the small solder marks on the back.. hat plate seems to make the most sense... but hey I'll take belt plate nooo problem!! I'd really just like to find a reference and date range.

Have not been digging much this year and not much to show for the few times I went out... a flying eagle, 1830s dimes, a few gardners, three ringers. a copper or two and some basic buttons but I'm back now!!! If the weather allows it! Figures we get 11" the day after I find this!!!


BTW - I mentioned to someone on the weekend that I hadn't seen you post in a while. Nice to see you on the forum again.
 

Upvote 0
nice early plate man!I agree it looks more like shoulder belt plate.awesome awesome find.
 

Upvote 0
I agree with DCMatt.... not a hat-plate. It looks a State Militia Artillery shoulder-belt or waist-belt plate, from sometime between the 1830s to 1880s.

That being said... precise width and height measurements are needed, because it looks unusually long, which tends to be a characteristic of military-school Cadet plates.
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
It seems to me that something made of stamped brass and as intricate as that plate is [detail wise], it would certainly have been mass produced. If it were mass produced for military purposes, militia or otherwise, it seems very odd that one would have avoided O'Donnel & Campbell's book, Sydney Kerksis' book, and William Gavins's book. I don't understand that.:icon_scratch:
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
In view of Creskol's wondering why it isn't in any of the civil war relic reference-books, I'll answer.

Some belt-plates (and also, buttons) were manufactured only once, to fill a relatively small order, such as for a just one specific Militia regiment or even a company-size unit, or a military school. Although technically being "mass-produced," less than 100 may ever have been made. Sometimes none or almost none have survived into modern times, and thus haven't made into any relic-reference book.

One of the exciting things for me about relic-collecting (and study) in the Internet age has been occasionally getting to see a newly-discovered version of Confederate buckle or button or artillery-shell which does not appear in any of the reference-books.
 

Upvote 0
TheCannonballGuy said:
In view of Creskol's wondering why it isn't in any of the civil war relic reference-books, I'll answer.

Some belt-plates (and also, buttons) were manufactured only once, to fill a relatively small order, such as for a just one specific Militia regiment or even a company-size unit, or a military school. Although technically being "mass-produced," less than 100 may ever have been made. Sometimes none or almost none have survived into modern times, and thus haven't made into any relic-reference book.

One of the exciting things for me about relic-collecting (and study) in the Internet age has been occasionally getting to see a newly-discovered version of Confederate buckle or button or artillery-shell which does not appear in any of the reference-books.
Click to expand...

Thanks Pete... That makes sense to me. However, it seems to me that this same type of argument was applied to a small sword belt plate a couple of years or so ago that someone found .. I think in Tennessee, that didn't appear in, or match any plates in any book, yet didn't match any known reproductions either. The theory was rebuked and the plate was deemed a fake, I guess, because nobody had seen one before.
 

Upvote 0
creskol said:
Thanks Pete... That makes sense to me. However, it seems to me that this same type of argument was applied to a small sword belt plate a couple of years or so ago that someone found .. I think in Tennessee, that didn't appear in, or match any plates in any book, yet didn't match any known reproductions either. The theory was rebuked and the plate was deemed a fake, I guess, because nobody had seen one before.
Click to expand...

My partner dug a buckle tongue we have yet to find in any books either
 

Upvote 0
creskol said:
Thanks Pete... That makes sense to me. However, it seems to me that this same type of argument was applied to a small sword belt plate a couple of years or so ago that someone found .. I think in Tennessee, that didn't appear in, or match any plates in any book, yet didn't match any known reproductions either. The theory was rebuked and the plate was deemed a fake, I guess, because nobody had seen one before.
Click to expand...

Was this one the crossed cannons and bomb device?
 

Upvote 0
Do you folks think there is a chance that it is British?
Found this one.
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
Thank you for updating your original post with the plate's precise measurements. Your plate is unusually narrow (1.75") in comparison to its width/length (3.25"). Being made of very thin sheetbrass AND its "smallness" (1.75-inches) compared to Military-issue rectangular plates SUGGESTS (but does not PROVE) that it is a Military-School plate. The only plate with those long-but narrow dimensions is shown in the book American Military Belt Plates as being a "school plate" (see page 523).

I should mention, the Virginia Military Institute is known to have had a smaller-than-normal size of 2-piece Virginia buckle.

Also, there is something very unusual about the "form" of your plate's crossed-cannons emblem. The cannon barrels have four sets of raised rings on them. No CS or US Army crossed-cannons insignia that I've seen in any insignia-book have four sets of rings on the cannons. But one emblem like that (four sets of rings) is shown in the "American Military Belt Plates" book on page 509... which the authors say may be an 1885-1900 Stokes-Kirk "fabrication."

I'm just pointed out the "unusualness" of the four-sets-of-rings on your plate's emblem to help people recognize it if they see your plate's EXACT emblem somewhere in a book or on the internet.

I'm not asking you to tell exactly where you dug that plate, but it might help us to know what area of what state you found it at. For example... coastal VA, central VA, northern VA, southwest VA, or the Shenandoah Valley.
 

Upvote 0
I was hoping to get a picture of the cross rifle plate found in the same area, but it was sold long ago. It was of the same design, stamped not applied, and the same size. So, I'm thinking maybe militia and/or school usage. I did find buttons that were possibly Berkeley Military Academy. However, I also found many early Virginia buttons, standard issue Union relics, other state buttons etc.. so none of this information narrows anything down.

MB
 

Upvote 0
TheCannonballGuy said:
Thank you for updating your original post with the plate's precise measurements. Your plate is unusually narrow (1.75") in comparison to its width/length (3.25"). Being made of very thin sheetbrass AND its "smallness" (1.75-inches) compared to Military-issue rectangular plates SUGGESTS (but does not PROVE) that it is a Military-School plate. The only plate with those long-but narrow dimensions is shown in the book American Military Belt Plates as being a "school plate" (see page 523).

I should mention, the Virginia Military Institute is known to have had a smaller-than-normal size of 2-piece Virginia buckle.

Also, there is something very unusual about the "form" of your plate's crossed-cannons emblem. The cannon barrels have four sets of raised rings on them. No CS or US Army crossed-cannons insignia that I've seen in any insignia-book have four sets of rings on the cannons. But one emblem like that (four sets of rings) is shown in the "American Military Belt Plates" book on page 509... which the authors say may be an 1885-1900 Stokes-Kirk "fabrication."

I'm just pointed out the "unusualness" of the four-sets-of-rings on your plate's emblem to help people recognize it if they see your plate's EXACT emblem somewhere in a book or on the internet.

I'm not asking you to tell exactly where you dug that plate, but it might help us to know what area of what state you found it at. For example... coastal VA, central VA, northern VA, southwest VA, or the Shenandoah Valley.
Click to expand...

What about the one on page 127 of American Military Headgear Insignia.
"ca.1845-1855; Die Struck Brass; 2 inches wide.
 

Upvote 0
Pictures have been sent to several experts, still waiting to get a date range, use and, hopefully known association for this device.
 

Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.

SWISS MADE

⬅️ Previous Thread

Whale rib or mammoth tusk?

Next Thread ➡️

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
High Plains Prospectors

Latest Discussions

Back
Top