✅ SOLVED Crossed brass saber insignia help

[oldbattleaxe]

This badge measures 1 5/8" across and made of brass. I can find similar sabers but not a disc of this size. What time frame was this used for forum?

 

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[A2coins]

Nice relic sometimes is just as cool to not know as it is to know Great post yep there are many smart people on this forum wish I was one of em lol but I love watching the ID hatch

 

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[civil_war22]

Yours is a type 3a 1937-1943 Screwback. Same style hole as yours, the screw, and explains why yours has swiveled off its original position

 

[nhbenz]

20th century U.S. collar disks have never been this large. The lack of hangers on the sheaths, along with the enamel on the sword, makes me question if it it’s even military.

 

[broken_detector]

Yea I'm skeptical as well, seems like a novelty item from maybe a flea market or maybe a novelty item, especially since it has some sort of paint on it.

 

[civil_war22]

20th century U.S. collar disks have never been this large. The lack of hangers on the sheaths, along with the enamel on the sword, makes me question if it it’s even military.

That’s what I was just discussing with someone earlier. The model he is showing is missing the hangars, but like the other gentleman I spoke to said. They were easily broken off due to their location. They were also commonly purchased by soldiers after WW2. They measure 1 1/64. They are domed, or convex shaped.

 

[devldog]

This was still a nice find and save. A piece of American Cavalry History. Well Done on the ID also.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

All of the collar disks I have are right at 1 inch, I'm not sure what this one is, but I'll look a bit more this evening

 

[oldbattleaxe]

The collar discs are mostly WW2. I cannot find a Cavalry disc. Not sure if they used them in that war. The Badge measures 1 5/8" The sabers look like they are made of lead?

 

[civil_war22]

They were privately purchased. As were a lot of items. There was proof of cavalry soldiers wearing yellow ribbons across their insignias, and it wasn’t permitted, but they did it anyway. I’ve researched, and spoke to many different sources, and included many different examples all of which resemble that one to a T. Get a digital caliper a measure it. The book on all badges used during the First World War, and Second were in this book with references. It’s a concave screw on type. Whatever size it is, it was bought after the war ended by many soldiers.

 

[broken_detector]

They were privately purchased. As were a lot of items. There was proof of cavalry soldiers wearing yellow ribbons across their insignias, and it wasn’t permitted, but they did it anyway. I’ve researched, and spoke to many different sources, and included many different examples all of which resemble that one to a T. Get a digital caliper a measure it. The book on all badges used during the First World War, and Second were in this book with references. It’s a concave screw on type. Whatever size it is, it was bought after the war ended by many soldiers.

I feel like we have beaten this thing to death lol, in all honesty have u looked to see if the swords could have been mounted on there, meaning trench art.

 

[oldbattleaxe]

I guess I will leave it as unsolved. I am quite sure this badge has not been modified. A friend dug this item at the Barberton Ohio encampment area that was used for Span Am and WW1 soldiers. It could be a special order badge? I don't think I have ever seen a soldiers hat badge that was enameled. One spec of red on the saber guard. I thank all of you for showing your interest and help with it. Bill

 

[civil_war22]

I guess I will leave it as unsolved. I am quite sure this badge has not been modified. A friend dug this item at the Barberton Ohio encampment area that was used for Span Am and WW1 soldiers. It could be a special order badge? I don't think I have ever seen a soldiers hat badge that was enameled. One spec of red on the saber guard. I thank all of you for showing your interest and help with it. Bill

I know you’re not going to like my answer again, but I am a military specialist in militaria from Civil War(1861-1865), Indian wars(1865-1891), Spanish-America War(1898), Philippine-American War(1899-1902), Banana Wars(1898-1935), Moro Rebellion(1899-1913), Mexico(1910-1919), World War 1(1917-1918), World War 2(1941-1945).

I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that World War 2 hats contained the following: for Officers a large Eagle with Great Seal above its head on the front, and the sides where the strap was placed there were a button for each side containing Great Seal buttons. One on the left, one on the right, attached to a leather strap.
Enlisted men’s caps contained a large circular disc with the Great Seal in the middle, the leather strap contained the same two buttons on each side.
Cavalry, including all other Regiments, or Companies had a collar disc on each side. Army regulations issued in 1921 states that the Type 1 collar discs were to be bronze on service uniforms, and gilt on white uniforms. On November 25, 1924 the bronze discs were dropped, any discs still in service were to be polished to a bright finish.
Type 2 discs were issued from 1926-1937, and were primarily issued in gilt finish with a standard hatched background, and used a screw nut to attach to uniform. The left disc contained the Regiment number and Company Letter, or number/letter combinations for special assignments. The right collar discs had the same hatched background using the same style screw nut which would contain US, and could include regiment numbers or even national guard state over US along with Regiment numbers.
Type 3a collar discs were produced from 1937 until 1943 are a TWO piece construction consisting of a plain brass disc with a SQUARE hole in the center, and a has a screw post to fit into the hole. A separate piece screwed on the back to hold the disc, and device together. The assembly was attached to the uniform with a screw nut. They were discontinued due to the amount of brass used in their construction. In 1979, a similar multi piece disc became standard use. Collectors refer to the early discs LIKE YOURS as Type 3a, and the later as Type 3b. There were variations in sizes, some not as accurate as others, but close enough in size to not be much of a noticeable difference. As stated before your example is a Type 3a screw nut design, that has either lost the hangers due to corrosion in the ground, or simply breaking off while on the uniform. The way yours has rotated suggests it must have either came out enough that the square portion was up enough so that the assembly could rotate or was torn off the uniform, causing the hangers to break. Your convex, dome shaped button was made between 1937-1943, and could be no earlier or later.
There is enough evidence to show yours could have been standard military issue, or bought from a PX type building, for the individual to have personally showing what Unit he was in. Again here is your piece showing the domed button, along with a hint of the square hole in the background. Yours being figure 113, or had a series of letters explaining which company(supply company, G company, anti-tank battery, machine gun company. The lack of the sword hangers could be due to the company letters being broken off, as the company letters were attached to (solder, or some other type of joining of metals) the sword hangers, and could be adult broken off if snagged on something, you would lose your company insignia, but still have your Cavalry insignia

 

[civil_war22]

Might go back, and recheck the hole for possible missing letters or numbers. The domed design of your button made it easily susceptible of breaking the letters, and numbers(if they had them) also some have been excavated with the hangers missing due to them being raised, and broken off. Two sets of examples of how yours is lacking the sword hangers, due to them being torn off, either by the company Letters or numbers being broken off, taking the hangers with them.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Ok, Here's what I think is going on here.. At 1 5/8ths the disk is too big to have been a collar device, but just the right size for a WW2 and later Enlisted cap badge. Is there a small hole through it off of center? If so that is what it is. I think a screwback WW2 era Cavalry Officers collar sabres were added to it by someone wanting to make their own cap badge. I'm almost certain that's what we're looking at.

 

[broken_detector]

Ok, Here's what I think is going on here.. At 1 5/8ths the disk is too big to have been a collar device, but just the right size for a WW2 and later Enlisted cap badge. Is there a small hole through it off of center? If so that is what it is. I think a screwback WW2 era Cavalry Officers collar sabres were added to it by someone wanting to make their own cap badge. I'm almost certain that's what we're looking at.

I've been saying that since the beginning that its 2 different pieces probably put together. But guess what guys he got what he wanted his thread to be alive again.

 

[civil_war22]

During WW2 the shortage of brass, and enormous amount of troops enlisted made the US go to a pot metal disc for some time. The soldiers often bought their own badges, from private firms, do to the dislike of the cap badges of the time. I can find no design from the early 1920’s to the end of WW2 with 1 5/8 as a size for a cap badge. Some not even close. If the theory of drilling a hole into the button to fit Calvary sabers is correct then we know a square won’t fit in a round hole. The design of the two piece button along with the area of the square hole suggests it’s a variant of a collar disc. The argument being well they weren’t that big, look at the various examples of hat badges vs collar discs over the years, and the argument becomes invalid. I’m the time of WW2 there was such a shortage of brass that the military made some ugly buttons, cap badges, collar discs, because of the need to save brass for war needs, and the growing number of enlisted officers, also another key part is the government had come up with so many different units the cost of using all the brass was enormous. So the only valid reasoning here is it can only be a private purchased collar disc. I don’t care about the size. Because it’s not far off some of the standard collar discs, if it was privately purchased it could have been any size, as long as it was close enough to match the needs of a soldier and his uniform they would buy them. People tend to forget just how few brass hat badges, and collar discs there were back in WW2, due to all of the war efforts, and demand for brass, and copper going to munitions.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

View attachment 1786948
During WW2 the shortage of brass, and enormous amount of troops enlisted made the US go to a pot metal disc for some time. The soldiers often bought their own badges, from private firms, do to the dislike of the cap badges of the time. I can find no design from the early 1920’s to the end of WW2 with 1 5/8 as a size for a cap badge. Some not even close. If the theory of drilling a hole into the button to fit Calvary sabers is correct then we know a square won’t fit in a round hole. The design of the two piece button along with the area of the square hole suggests it’s a variant of a collar disc. The argument being well they weren’t that big, look at the various examples of hat badges vs collar discs over the years, and the argument becomes invalid. I’m the time of WW2 there was such a shortage of brass that the military made some ugly buttons, cap badges, collar discs, because of the need to save brass for war needs, and the growing number of enlisted officers, also another key part is the government had come up with so many different units the cost of using all the brass was enormous. So the only valid reasoning here is it can only be a private purchased collar disc. I don’t care about the size. Because it’s not far off some of the standard collar discs, if it was privately purchased it could have been any size, as long as it was close enough to match the needs of a soldier and his uniform they would buy them. People tend to forget just how few brass hat badges, and collar discs there were back in WW2, due to all of the war efforts, and demand for brass, and copper going to munitions.

It has to be a cap badge disk with the sabres added to it. even through the height of the war they were still brass, and had a square hole in the center where the eagle device attached and a small pin hole for a stud on the back of the eagle which kept it from rotating, Here is a pic from my collection that clearly shows the cap badge with the eagle on it, they were all between 1 1/2 inches and 1 5/8ths depending on the maker