copper body armor

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hmmm

hmmm

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Jun 9, 2007
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:hello: HI ALL
Not sure if this fits here , but what i have is a piece of copper that i think is a piece of body armor. it had woven bark covering it and i found it about 20 inches down.
it came from a island on the west side of Vancouver island. it was possibly connected to a seafaring people as it was found in the bush behind a beach in a calm lagoon.
there was a bronze looking spike near it as well. ill try post pictures, un fortunately the site is no longer available to detect.
have a look at the pictures and give me some feedback.
 

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..".dude, how can a storm cause big swells in this bay, pushing the copper into the dirt, 100 feet from the beach , also would it not be in the sand from the swells that cant reach it..."
---> The answer is a tsunami that happened in 1700.
The "1700 Cascadia earthquake" was a magnitude 8.7 to 9.2 megathrust earthquake that occurred in the Cascadia subduction zone at 21:00 on January 26, 1700. Created huge tsuanmi waves across the entire west coast... and also caused massive destruction to Japan. And there have been many smaller tsunami's since then as well, plus all the yearly winter storms with tidal surges.
-Rich
 

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That is very interesting ..although it would not have taken a Sunami. A l couple centuries of storms and shoreline changes would be plenty. The copper sheathing as opposed to lead was first adopted by the Royal Navy in 1761. It wasn't until after that it came into use on civilian merchant vessels. The rest of the artifacts pictured in his account of findings from the island are all consistent with a nineteenth century shipwreck. Vancoover Island is considered the graveyard of the Pacific ..when it comes to shipwrecks. He has provided zero evidence that his piece is what he claims. If cedar was readily available to the local ship builders that is exactly what would have been used as the underlayment in the sheathing process.
 

no, these are definitely two different things.
 

Those were found in the same place as the round spikes.. they are interesting. I just picked them up to photograph with the others because of the age and Association with the others.
 

1700 is too early for these things in this location
 

Correct... all of the other artifacts also point to the 18 hundreds.
 

If any ceramics were found in the area I could tell with a much narrower window of time. The stone alone.. in that cross is cut in a 19th century pattern... " rose cut"
 

I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now. The mistery is gone for me. This belongs in the shipwreck forum. I can pick it up there if he really wants to get to the truth.
 

hmmm said:
...tell why would they have woven cedar bark covering the copper. it just seams odd to me.
This bark is woven and attached to the copper, they are part of the same arifact and Coincidentally , :icon_biggrin: it is the same style of bark weaving that the fn used to make cloths. :laughing7:
I guess there is no way this guy, would think to punch in holes in his copper breast plate and weave the bark around it, it would be more, as Spock would say, its only logical to just hold the copper breast plate in front of him. :dontknow:
Home - American Indians of the Pacific Northwest - LCC Research Guides at Lane Community College
View attachment 725184
woven cedar bark is not what the white man used to cover the cooper sheathing used on ships, :icon_scratch:
but then you clearly are the expert of ships and fn artifacts made form copper and cedar bark , so who am i to argue.
i Will say , I am in the process of having a expert identifying it.
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Hey hmmm,

Did you take measurements and weigh this copper? Is it copper sheet? Does it show signs of being worked / hammered? What about those holes? Could you get all macro, photographically speaking, please?

I don't think it was "body armor," from what I have read of the northern coastal tribes. The woven cedar bark seems like a larger weave, than that used for cloth. More like the weave used in burden baskets, to my eyes.

~~~ I had computer issues last night. This is the 3rd response I've tried to post, concerning your great find.~~~

Let me posit a theory; long ago there was a beach comber / clam digger, who had combed the beach, and turned up less than a satisfactory haul of mollusks, she turned back to the water's edge and spied something...

It had the verdigris patina of weathered... COPPER! She approached slowly, cautiously. Was it? How did it? She looked around quickly, picked it up, and hurriedly placed it in her basket. She ran for the tree line, so she could examine it further. It surely looked like copper. She was scared. She couldn't have this copper. It was too valuable. The stuff of Chiefs.

She quickly buried it in her basket, and ran to seek the counsel of her husband...

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"This very large Haida copper shield (117 cm. high) once belonged to Albert Edward Edenshaw. He was a talented shield engraver and sold his decorated coppers as far south as the Fraser River. This copper portrays his female Grizzly Bear crest. Purchased from Mary Yaltatse of Masset in 1970. CMC VII-B-1595

Copper was the ultimate symbol of wealth among the native peoples of the Northwest Coast; like gold, it reflects the brilliance of the sun. According to Nuxalk legend, copper was given to the people by Tsonoqua, who received it from Qomoqua, the master of wealth who lives in a copper house at the bottom of the sea. According to Haida tradition, copper came from the territory of the Eyak people in the Copper River area of Alaska, where it occurs as pure nuggets in the river gravels. In the Prince Rupert harbour shell middens, the use of copper in the form of bracelets, pendants and tubes can be traced back more than 2,000 years, and thus appears to be an early feature of north coast trading and warfare.

Throughout the coast, shields made of copper denoted the high rank of their owners and were exchanged at ever higher values between chiefs at potlatch feasts. Among the Kwakwaka'wakw, coppers were particularly associated with the distribution of wealth at weddings. The Haida used coppers as a marker and symbol of wealth, and some wealthy chiefs owned a dozen or more. A copper which belonged to Albert Edward Edenshaw was sold to a Tsimshian chief for eight slaves, one large cedar canoe, one hundred elkskins and eighty boxes of eulachon grease. After a chief's death, his coppers were often fastened on his memorial pole." Civilization.ca - Treasures Gallery - Coppers
 

Quite the imagination. So now.. it came from a shipwreck... but you do not believe that the same cedar strips that the local native residents used because they were available and worked well would not have been used by someone of a different ethnicity utilizing the same raw materials in his surroundings. The only reason that Matting Is stuck to the copper Is because there was a layer of tar between the two..... pretty soon this thing is going to turn into a miraculous gift from the gods flown in by a bird of Fire.
 

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GatorBoy said:
I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now. The mistery is gone for me. This belongs in the shipwreck forum. I can pick it up there if he really wants to get to the truth.
Click to expand...
Grate gater dude, i do really like your insite to the fact that what i have found can only be copper sheathing from a ship, so ill take your advise and switch this to the ship wreck forum. wait for me there and we will pick up from here.
 

GatorBoy said:
Hello it's me mister obvious again....... why has nobody noticed the nail holes??????

View attachment 725497

Things like this whent in them.

View attachment 725501
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Hello GB,

You make some good points. Would you care to address how this copper was found with the woven cedar bark impressed into it?

I think I see 4, for sure holes, perhaps 3 more... I don't know if they are "nail holes," or are pierced in some other manner. I also think that I see the image of a crude horse's head near the top of the piece. I'm writing that off as a product of my own overactive imagination...

627912d1334857490-copper-body-armor-armor2.jpg


There was considerable surface copper found in BC, and the Northern Territories.

The "official" date for white man contact, up this way, is thought to be 1750. "Trade" copper could have migrated from other tribes...

Having said that, I do think it likely, given the "nail holes," that this may be white man copper, perhaps from a shipwreck or a damaged hull. If it is, it is still an incredible find for any Kwakiutl, Tlingit, Haida, or Bella Coola who may have discovered it.

The complex mythology of copper to these peoples is still not completely understood by the white man. It has all kinds of mythic and supernatural overtones.

May I direct your attention to this book: The Coppers of the Northwest Coast Indians: Their Origin, Development, and ... - Carol F. Jopling - Google Books

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The Antiquities of Wisconsin | Chapter 6
 

Its very easy to get yourself into a position of not being able to see the forest through the trees in environments where the artifacts from several cultures overlap. Through years of living..artifacting..and researching in exactly that type of environment I've learned not to "put the cart before the horse" so to speak. I hope nobody thinks I'm just trying to dash hopes.. his finds are exceptional.... but like I said many many posts ago.. just not what he thought.... IMO. also about the matting being stuck to the copper I explained that more than once. Like anyone else I'm human and can be wrong... however... my experience tells me..not this time.
 

i hope you are correct about the date of the cross being the 19th century, i just wish someone could id the badge.
 

GatorBoy said:
Its very easy to get yourself into a position of not being able to see the forest through the trees in environments where the artifacts from several cultures overlap. Through years of living..artifacting..and researching in exactly that type of environment I've learned not to "put the cart before the horse" so to speak. I hope nobody thinks I'm just trying to dash hopes.. his finds are exceptional.... but like I said many many posts ago.. just not what he thought.... IMO. also about the matting being stuck to the copper I explained that more than once. Like anyone else I'm human and can be wrong... however... my experience tells me..not this time.
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the matting is not stuck to the copper, it is part of the copper, like a sheathing or covering. A acheological dig would show a lot, the rest of the matting is still there.
 

coppers were often broken up like the above picture and given away in pieces...but this is a piece of copper not a "copper piece"
 

That was the most sensible response I've heard yet. This thread is turning into an epic.
 

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