Continental army button

[MikeyDigsIt]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this button is authentic or a reproduction. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

The shape and form of your button's thread-loop indicates it is an Original Period one, not a repro. Manufacturers of repro 1-piece buttons tend to use a form which is least "laborious," and therfore cheapest, to produce. Yours isn't one of those.

 

[CC Hunter]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this button is authentic or a reproduction. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The button is a modern reproduction. These are often sold for use on representative uniforms for historical reenactments, as well as souvenirs.

On original Continental Army USA buttons of the 18th century, the metal composition is different, the lettering and rim detail is slightly different, and the shank (loop) is different, as well as the mold seam. I've personally dug several original Rev War Continental buttons, in various styles, and can assure you this example here is modern.

CC Hunter

 

[HutSiteDigger]

I was wondering about that too CC Hunter, I have a Continental Army button and was looking at the rim details and shank and trying to compare it with this button and from what I can tell the rim & shank are slightly different, I was waiting for others to comment before I posted this, other then the rim&shank I can't tell from the photo but I was thinking modern reproduction also, though CannonBall could be right.

 

[CC Hunter]

The only original period Continental USA button that I can recall, having this style of thin lettering, with slightly rounded features, is the very rare large size, with no "pie crust" rim. The smaller Continental USA buttons with the border, have wider font lettering, with a flatter surface. Also, there is usually a very noticeable mold seam on the back of these, much like the mold seam we ofter see on cast musket balls.

The metal color does not look right to me either, even accounting for it being "Non Dug". Period pewter is generally high lead content, while modern pewter is environmentally proper and health safe lead free. The extra casting junk around the shank looks weird to me also, and almost like the shank was a separate piece, then other material was poured and cast up to it.

I've included one style of original Continental USA button here, for comparison. This is the very rare large size, of which maybe only a dozen or so have been accounted for in excavated collections. I have found two of these.

CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

Just realized I posted my "As Dug" photos of the buttons before cleaning.

Rather difficult to make out details under the dirt. Here is a better view, after cleaning.

Note the mold seam on the back of the original pewter USA button.

CC Hunter

 

[MikeyDigsIt]

Thanks guys. I know nothing about buttons but had a feeling it was a reproduction. It was only about 2" deep and cleaned up easy, so it probably wasn't in the ground long. I found it a field where I have also dug 2 George II halfpennies and a large cent, so i kinda had my hopes up.

 

[MikeyDigsIt]

Thank you for your help. The lettering is much thinner than other examples I've seen, and the seem on the back looks less defined also. I just read in another thread something about the shank being drilled meaning its modern, and mine appears to be drilled.

 

[Iron Patch]

The button is a modern reproduction. These are often sold for use on representative uniforms for historical reenactments, as well as souvenirs.

On original Continental Army USA buttons of the 18th century, the metal composition is different, the lettering and rim detail is slightly different, and the shank (loop) is different, as well as the mold seam. I've personally dug several original Rev War Continental buttons, in various styles, and can assure you this example here is modern.

CC Hunter

The face struck me as modern, and mold seam, or lack there of, pushed me more in that direction. Do all the USA buttons have the seam?

I'd never trust the look of the metal, just look at it as another factor because you could always get an oddball mix.... and then you add in some good ground conditions and you could have a pretty impressive looking button. As you know just digging a little deeper can make quite a difference in condition, and that was the case for me never seeing a Rev War pewter that wasn't completely oxidized white... until I dug one from about two feet and it was mostly grey. In fresh water you can get some brown color on pewter or lead, which is another reason I wouldn't try to judge something based only on the color or what looked like a certain metal composition.

PS: Most that look that good are too good to be true, but detecting miracles can and do happen!


oh, and I think CC calls it fake because it's nicer than his.

 

[CC Hunter]

The face struck me as modern, and mold seam, or lack there of, pushed me more in that direction. Do all the USA buttons have the seam?

I'd never trust the look of the metal, just look at it as another factor because you could always get an oddball mix.... and then you add in some good ground conditions and you could have a pretty impressive looking button. As you know just digging a little deeper can make quite a difference in condition, and that was the case for me never seeing a Rev War pewter that wasn't completely oxidized white... until I dug one from about two feet and it was mostly grey. In fresh water you can get some brown color on pewter or lead, which is another reason I wouldn't try to judge something based only on the color or what looked like a certain metal composition.

PS: Most that look that good are too good to be true, but detecting miracles can and do happen!


oh, and I think CC calls it fake because it's nicer than his.

I agree, that the appearance of excavated metal can vary greatly depending on location and other factors. For every rule there is an exception. I had no idea this button here was even a dug item. With that being said, there is yet another skeptical point added. There are just too many things not looking right to my eye here, on various details of this particular button. I wouldn't try to judge based only on color either, as that is not acceptable in politically correct society.

Note the lettering styles, shank, and mold seam details on these examples:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/b...77-usa-continental-army-soldier-s-button.html

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/293707-continental-army-button.html

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/w...icity-continental-army-usa-button-update.html

Stack's Bowers Galleries - Lot #7693 - (Circa 1776-1780) Continental Army USA Button. Albert GI2A. Pewter. VF.

Stack's Bowers Galleries - Lot #1042 - (Circa 1777) Continental Army USA Button. Tin. 19 mm. Fine.

Stack's Bowers Galleries - Lot #7694 - (Circa 1776-1780) Continental Army USA Button. Albert GI2Av. Pewter. EF.

Fine Dug Revolutionary War USA Intertwined Cast Pewter Coat Button w/ Shank

USA Continental Army Button - Friendly Metal Detecting Forums


P.S. Mine is as pretty as a "Centerfold", so why envy "falsies"? LOL

CC Hunter

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

I am not disregarding any of CC Hunter's statements, which are well-reasoned, as usual. However, I am reluctant to consign any dug button to the Reproduction bucket without being fully 100% certain that it's a repro.

As I mentioned in my reply above, all of the pewter "intertwined-USA" reproduction buttons I've seen have a wedge/pillar shank with a drilled hole. However, as I've said many times in this forum, I do not believe I've seen everything there is to see. I haven't attended RevWar battle reenactments and examined the repro buttons for sale there by "sutlers" selling repro uniforms & equipment.

So, as research for this reply, I did a websearch for reproduction pewter intertwined-USA buttons. The only result I got was: View the United States of America "USA" Pewter Button, 5/8" [#GPB33] at http://www.gggodwin.com
That button looks very similar to MikeyDigsIt's button, but not quite completely exact. The seller says it has a cast shank, but there's no photo showing what its shank looks like. (As I said, a repro interwined USA pewter button I own has a cast wedge/pillar shank.) The seller also says it is 5/8-inch in diiameter. MikeyDigsIt, please measure your button super-precisely, to see if it is exactly 5/8-inch. Also, you could email photos of your button to the owner of that website and ask him if its loop/shank is the kind he sells.

Thee is another reason I am hesitant to consign MikeyDigsIt's button the the Repro bucket. In Alphaeus Albert's button book, he says (in a remark under a GI-2Av intertwined-USA pewter 19-millimeter button), "There are a number of variants in this pattern, with slight differences in the monogram." That means he knew of variants which are not shown in his book. So, before tossing your button into the Repro bucket, I suggest you make several additional well-focused closeup photo of its front and back, and email them to Willaim Leigh at civilwarbuttons.com and to Don Troiani, via the Contact form at his website Troiani Collector

Mr. Troiani wrote the book "Military Buttons of the American Revolution." I know both William and Don personally, and I'll testify they are both "helpful-minded" guys about military-button ID requests.

Meanwhile... I usually ask posters for precise measurements of objects they want identified, but I failed to do so in my previous post about your button. Please tell us the precise measurement of your button, in millimeters or 16ths-of-an-inch.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Is it my eyes or does the loop look like it was added at a later date, the colour looks different to the button back, the loop looks a lot thicker than would be expected

SS

 

[smokeythecat]

I've owned numerous Rev War buttons over the years. I would not write this off as a repro,but can't determine for sure if it's genuine. The shank is totally unlike the repro shank, but the face is a variant of most authentic rev war buttons. Hang onto it.

 

[hogge]

CC---Thanks for using the one I found as an example. This particular button was found at about 2". The flat rock it was on, helped preserve it from the soil. (it's what I believe anyways) Cannot dismiss it as period, but just doesn't look right to me. Good Luck! Hogge

 

[Iron Patch]

I've owned numerous Rev War buttons over the years. I would not write this off as a repro,but can't determine for sure if it's genuine. The shank is totally unlike the repro shank, but the face is a variant of most authentic rev war buttons. Hang onto it.

Write Don T., even being fake he'll probably be able to give you the history on it... make that story, I guess. I'd gladly pay $500+ for a genuine one that nice, but would not pay $20 for that particular button. I've dug many early buttons and have bought many, and my gut and checkbook would not let me go near that one.

 

[CC Hunter]

Reproductions are made for various reasons, and can span many decades, long before present. Historical events and celebrations, have often brought about reproductions of earlier military items. Civil War Reunions and veterans organizations, even had reproduction buttons, that are now well over a century old. No doubt the Centennial in 1876, brought demand for Revolutionary War style uniforms for parades and historical displays. Point is, this particular intertwined USA button of pewter-like material, may not match known reproduction examples of similar buttons, yet, it is unlike most actual known authentic period Continental Army buttons in so many details, as to throw a prominent red flag in my mind.

I honor and applaud PCG in seeking confirmation, and respect the points provided. Properly identifying historical items is a never-ending challenge, as we constantly encounter truly prized items regarded as trash by the finder, and more frequently the "flip side of the coin" as well.

CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

Is it my eyes or does the loop look like it was added at a later date, the colour looks different to the button back, the loop looks a lot thicker than would be expected

SS

Silver Searcher, your eyes are seeing many of the same discrepancies in the loop/shank, that I was attempting to describe as being suspect. I've never seen an original 18th century cast pewter button with rough casting or extra sprue junk around the shank like we see here. MikeyDigsIt also describes the shank as having what appears to be a drilled hole, which is not seen on period pewter buttons. There are authentic cast brass buttons of the late 18th and early 19th century, with drilled shanks. However, I cannot recall ever seeing a drilled shank on a period pewter button.

CC Hunter

 

[Silver Searcher]

Silver Searcher, your eyes are seeing many of the same discrepancies in the loop/shank, that I was attempting to describe as being suspect. I've never seen an original 18th century cast pewter button with rough casting or extra sprue junk around the shank like we see here. MikeyDigsIt also describes the shank as having what appears to be a drilled hole, which is not seen on period pewter buttons. There are authentic cast brass buttons of the late 18th and early 19th century, with drilled shanks. However, I cannot recall ever seeing a drilled shank on a period pewter button.

CC Hunter

Wanting to know more, I googled some of the pictures on the net, and noticed a difference on the letter U on the one posted, the bottom seems more flat, than on the original USA pewter buttons, also on the original letters, they seemed to be more pronounced(thicker) than this one.

SS

 

[VERMONTPACKRAT]

I cant say if your button is real or not but I can show a few photos of A pair of buttons that I dug a few years back for comparison. I am 99.99999999999% sure these are real.

VPR

 

[MikeyDigsIt]

I am not disregarding any of CC Hunter's statements, which are well-reasoned, as usual. However, I am reluctant to consign any dug button to the Reproduction bucket without being fully 100% certain that it's a repro.

As I mentioned in my reply above, all of the pewter "intertwined-USA" reproduction buttons I've seen have a wedge/pillar shank with a drilled hole. However, as I've said many times in this forum, I do not believe I've seen everything there is to see. I haven't attended RevWar battle reenactments and examined the repro buttons for sale there by "sutlers" selling repro uniforms & equipment.

So, as research for this reply, I did a websearch for reproduction pewter intertwined-USA buttons. The only result I got was: View the United States of America "USA" Pewter Button, 5/8" [#GPB33] at http://www.gggodwin.com
That button looks very similar to MikeyDigsIt's button, but not quite completely exact. The seller says it has a cast shank, but there's no photo showing what its shank looks like. (As I said, a repro interwined USA pewter button I own has a cast wedge/pillar shank.) The seller also says it is 5/8-inch in diiameter. MikeyDigsIt, please measure your button super-precisely, to see if it is exactly 5/8-inch. Also, you could email photos of your button to the owner of that website and ask him if its loop/shank is the kind he sells.

Thee is another reason I am hesitant to consign MikeyDigsIt's button the the Repro bucket. In Alphaeus Albert's button book, he says (in a remark under a GI-2Av intertwined-USA pewter 19-millimeter button), "There are a number of variants in this pattern, with slight differences in the monogram." That means he knew of variants which are not shown in his book. So, before tossing your button into the Repro bucket, I suggest you make several additional well-focused closeup photo of its front and back, and email them to Willaim Leigh at civilwarbuttons.com and to Don Troiani, via the Contact form at his website Troiani Collector

Mr. Troiani wrote the book "Military Buttons of the American Revolution." I know both William and Don personally, and I'll testify they are both "helpful-minded" guys about military-button ID requests.

Meanwhile... I usually ask posters for precise measurements of objects they want identified, but I failed to do so in my previous post about your button. Please tell us the precise measurement of your button, in millimeters or 16ths-of-an-inch.

Wow, that one looks just like it to me. But the diameter of mine is a hair over 18mm. Once i get better camera i wild definitely email Mr. Leigh or Mr. Troiani cause i would love to be %100 either way. Thanks for your help.