SorenCoins
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If anyone wants to do an "expedition" there to find it I'll come!
Colorado lost dimes
- Thread starter sthilcollector
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ecmjamsit
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Snow pack was 201% this year. That means all the creeks and river are or have flowed to the extreme. Been this way last couple of years. We had about five or six years of drought previously. All that water may have uncovered some treasure. On the other hand it may have very well buried it. On the upper Arkansas I have seen thousands of tons of gravel deposits disappear overnight!
JamesFariello
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PatrickD
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I was confused by the route taken to transport coins considering there were easier routes and other transportation methods that made more sense.
But after doing some research, it seems that it was common practice to take unusual or out of the way routes to deliver valuables and staying away from the main routes.
Patrick
Last edited:
PatrickD
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OK, I have been doing some research on this. I cannot find any newspaper articles about it from the research sites. That is not unusual. But, I have been trying to recreate the route taken and it makes no sense for them to end up on Black Rim road. Not only is it a dead end, there is no way down and across the river if they were going from Crawford area toward Montrose.
I do have it narrowed down to a couple sites to check that make more sense.
A fun treasure lead to be sure.
I do have it narrowed down to a couple sites to check that make more sense.
A fun treasure lead to be sure.
PatrickD
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Ref:
(
My software cannot find that GPS. 38.60 is the highest and 107.60 is the highest. Any suggestions?
(
N 38.73189 W 107.83836) I remember Smith Creek being down stream from us. Good luck.
My software cannot find that GPS. 38.60 is the highest and 107.60 is the highest. Any suggestions?
PatrickD
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There is something fishy with this treasure lead. Been doing some analysis on the details and it just doesn't add up. The information I turned up raise questions regarding what really took place. I can post the details but I seem to be the only one active in this thread anyway so it doesn't matter I suppose. Just let me know if anyone cares and I can summarize it. When all the details are laid out on the table, they smell fishy.
When I was a boy, KvM was over talking about treasure hunting stuff with my father. I somehow horned into the table and Karl looked at me and said something that startled me at the time. It was the way he said it, but there is wisdom in his words. "You have to do the math!" He almost shouted it. Then he explained aspects of treasure leads that defy reality. Like the millions in gold payroll that two guys had to run with while being chased by outlaws, indians, etc., During the running gun battle, they stop and bury the payroll., blah, blah, blah. In an example like this, the gold would have been too heavy for two guys to run with. Doing the math.
Simply put, with the new facts, the math just doesn't add up. I just don't think it happened the way it has been portrayed.
Just sayin,
Patrick
When I was a boy, KvM was over talking about treasure hunting stuff with my father. I somehow horned into the table and Karl looked at me and said something that startled me at the time. It was the way he said it, but there is wisdom in his words. "You have to do the math!" He almost shouted it. Then he explained aspects of treasure leads that defy reality. Like the millions in gold payroll that two guys had to run with while being chased by outlaws, indians, etc., During the running gun battle, they stop and bury the payroll., blah, blah, blah. In an example like this, the gold would have been too heavy for two guys to run with. Doing the math.
Simply put, with the new facts, the math just doesn't add up. I just don't think it happened the way it has been portrayed.
Just sayin,
Patrick
Last edited:
PatrickD
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OK Treasure Hunters,
As requested.
Read this and let me know what you think. I was going to drive over tomorrow and check out the area but not now. Let me know if my logic is sound with this one.
Colorado Lost Dimes?
Origin: What is the origin of this treasure lead? I find three or four websites with pretty much the same write up. It shows up in a couple of my treasure books. But, the origin has to be something more tangible than just a treasure lead on a website or in a book.
I searched the newspaper archives at Newspaper.com and cannot find a single reference to the described incident where the wagons went over the side. Nothing about lost coinage or money. Nothing about the mint reporting the incident. I suppose I could send an email over to customer service at the mint. I am sure they would respond with either a polite "go away crazy person" or "here is the information" or "we have no information". Standard form letter response. Regardless, I cannot find the event taking place in history. Maybe one of you can?
Let's pretend for a second. Let's say you and I are two of the drivers in the four (I think four) wagons. And, let's say you are at the opposite end of the wagons when they started going over the edge. Would you have time to react? They definitely were not going that fast on that terrain. Thoughts?
Location? This is what gets a little odd. I pulled up old TOPOs and used Google maps satellite view and tried to reconstruct the route. Coming from the north on that trail is a dead end route. I could not see a single way down without making my way to the road and the bridge. I couldnt find a single way to get down that cliff side with wagons. I also tried to find a way they could make their way down that side and even take Red Rock canyon out. That is a dead end road now and may have made its way down to the highway (before it was a highway) and take that way.
So, what where they doing there?
Then, I find this in my research.
Plans to divert water from the Black Canyon’s more dependable Gunnison River were visionary. Beginning in 1894, surveys eventually revealed locations for both ends of a tunnel (in the canyon and the valley), with the intent of meeting in the middle. A road was scraped into the canyon slopes, descending to the river, and the town of East Portal (also known as River Portal) was born.
Early Exploration
An onsite inspection trip of Black Canyon and the Gunnison River was organized in 1900 under John Pelton, farmer, miner, and head of the local land office. Members included surveyor John Curtis, farmers Erik Anderson and Frank Hovey, and youthful William Torrence, director of the local electric company. The unexplored canyon proved to be a great challenge. At a place called “The Narrows” they abandoned their quest and clawed their way to the rim. However, the trip focused state and national attention on the proposal, and support for it increased.
In 1901, the U.S. Geological Survey sent Abraham Lincoln Fellows and William Torrence into the canyon to look for a site to build a diversion tunnel bringing water to the Uncompahgre Valley, which was suffering from water shortages due to an influx of settlers into the area.[17] Torrence, a Montrose native and an expert mountaineer, had taken part in a failed expedition the previous year, and his experience proved valuable on his second excursion. He opted to bring a single rubber air mattress instead of the heavy wooden boats that had doomed his previous journey into the canyon. They entered the canyon on August 12 equipped with "only hunting knives, two silk lifeline ropes, and rubber bags to encase their instruments." After a harrowing 10 days braving rock falls, waterfalls, and 76 river crossings, they emerged from the canyon with a suitable tunnel site.
Construction on the tunnel began 4 years later... This work required strong, hard-working men. In spite of good pay and fringe benefits, most disliked the dangerous underground conditions and stayed an average of only 2 weeks." 26 men were killed during the 4 year undertaking. The tunnel was finally completed in 1909.
The undertaking proved difficult and gargantuan. The plan called for workmen to dig two portals through Vernal Mesa--one would begin on the canyon floor and the other in the valley beyond-- with the goal of meeting in the middle. But first they had to scrape a road across the rugged mesa to the Gunnison River, roaring some 2,000 feet below the canyon rim. So tall were the canyon walls that they could tower over the Empire State Building. So steep was the road from rim to river that it descended in places at a 30 percent grade. Drilling equipment had to be eased down on skids, and it wouldn’t be until 1932 that an automobile succeeded in getting to the river, although it had to be pulled back up by a team of horses.
At the time, the Gunnison Tunnel held the honor of being the world's longest irrigation tunnel. On September 23, President William Howard Taft dedicated the tunnel in Montrose. The East Portal of the Gunnison Tunnel is accessible via East Portal Road which is on the South Rim of the canyon. Although the tunnel itself is not visible, the diversion dam can be seen from the campground.
https://www.nps.gov/cure/learn/historyculture/eastportal.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canyon_of_the_Gunnison_National_Park#cite_note-18
https://www.nps.gov/articles/colorado-gunnison-tunnel.htm
OK, Here is what rubs me the wrong way. That irrigation tunnel took 4 years to build and finished in 1909. That means the construction was taking place at the same time this incident with the coins going over the edge. I have been in places like this and it is quiet. You hear everything for a distance. I am sure the sound of wagons and coins going over the edge were heard. Or, were the miners involved?
If it was an inside job, pushing the wagons over and a small amount of the coins would make sense to throw off anyone trying to recover the coins from the cliff at the time.
Not trying to be analytical but there is something in these details that doesn't sit right with me. There was no legitimate reason for them to be on a dead end road at the far end of it.
Anyone care to add some thoughts to this?
Patrick
As requested.
Read this and let me know what you think. I was going to drive over tomorrow and check out the area but not now. Let me know if my logic is sound with this one.
Colorado Lost Dimes?
Origin: What is the origin of this treasure lead? I find three or four websites with pretty much the same write up. It shows up in a couple of my treasure books. But, the origin has to be something more tangible than just a treasure lead on a website or in a book.
I searched the newspaper archives at Newspaper.com and cannot find a single reference to the described incident where the wagons went over the side. Nothing about lost coinage or money. Nothing about the mint reporting the incident. I suppose I could send an email over to customer service at the mint. I am sure they would respond with either a polite "go away crazy person" or "here is the information" or "we have no information". Standard form letter response. Regardless, I cannot find the event taking place in history. Maybe one of you can?
Let's pretend for a second. Let's say you and I are two of the drivers in the four (I think four) wagons. And, let's say you are at the opposite end of the wagons when they started going over the edge. Would you have time to react? They definitely were not going that fast on that terrain. Thoughts?
Location? This is what gets a little odd. I pulled up old TOPOs and used Google maps satellite view and tried to reconstruct the route. Coming from the north on that trail is a dead end route. I could not see a single way down without making my way to the road and the bridge. I couldnt find a single way to get down that cliff side with wagons. I also tried to find a way they could make their way down that side and even take Red Rock canyon out. That is a dead end road now and may have made its way down to the highway (before it was a highway) and take that way.
So, what where they doing there?
Then, I find this in my research.
Plans to divert water from the Black Canyon’s more dependable Gunnison River were visionary. Beginning in 1894, surveys eventually revealed locations for both ends of a tunnel (in the canyon and the valley), with the intent of meeting in the middle. A road was scraped into the canyon slopes, descending to the river, and the town of East Portal (also known as River Portal) was born.
Early Exploration
An onsite inspection trip of Black Canyon and the Gunnison River was organized in 1900 under John Pelton, farmer, miner, and head of the local land office. Members included surveyor John Curtis, farmers Erik Anderson and Frank Hovey, and youthful William Torrence, director of the local electric company. The unexplored canyon proved to be a great challenge. At a place called “The Narrows” they abandoned their quest and clawed their way to the rim. However, the trip focused state and national attention on the proposal, and support for it increased.
In 1901, the U.S. Geological Survey sent Abraham Lincoln Fellows and William Torrence into the canyon to look for a site to build a diversion tunnel bringing water to the Uncompahgre Valley, which was suffering from water shortages due to an influx of settlers into the area.[17] Torrence, a Montrose native and an expert mountaineer, had taken part in a failed expedition the previous year, and his experience proved valuable on his second excursion. He opted to bring a single rubber air mattress instead of the heavy wooden boats that had doomed his previous journey into the canyon. They entered the canyon on August 12 equipped with "only hunting knives, two silk lifeline ropes, and rubber bags to encase their instruments." After a harrowing 10 days braving rock falls, waterfalls, and 76 river crossings, they emerged from the canyon with a suitable tunnel site.
Construction on the tunnel began 4 years later... This work required strong, hard-working men. In spite of good pay and fringe benefits, most disliked the dangerous underground conditions and stayed an average of only 2 weeks." 26 men were killed during the 4 year undertaking. The tunnel was finally completed in 1909.
The undertaking proved difficult and gargantuan. The plan called for workmen to dig two portals through Vernal Mesa--one would begin on the canyon floor and the other in the valley beyond-- with the goal of meeting in the middle. But first they had to scrape a road across the rugged mesa to the Gunnison River, roaring some 2,000 feet below the canyon rim. So tall were the canyon walls that they could tower over the Empire State Building. So steep was the road from rim to river that it descended in places at a 30 percent grade. Drilling equipment had to be eased down on skids, and it wouldn’t be until 1932 that an automobile succeeded in getting to the river, although it had to be pulled back up by a team of horses.
At the time, the Gunnison Tunnel held the honor of being the world's longest irrigation tunnel. On September 23, President William Howard Taft dedicated the tunnel in Montrose. The East Portal of the Gunnison Tunnel is accessible via East Portal Road which is on the South Rim of the canyon. Although the tunnel itself is not visible, the diversion dam can be seen from the campground.
https://www.nps.gov/cure/learn/historyculture/eastportal.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canyon_of_the_Gunnison_National_Park#cite_note-18
https://www.nps.gov/articles/colorado-gunnison-tunnel.htm
OK, Here is what rubs me the wrong way. That irrigation tunnel took 4 years to build and finished in 1909. That means the construction was taking place at the same time this incident with the coins going over the edge. I have been in places like this and it is quiet. You hear everything for a distance. I am sure the sound of wagons and coins going over the edge were heard. Or, were the miners involved?
If it was an inside job, pushing the wagons over and a small amount of the coins would make sense to throw off anyone trying to recover the coins from the cliff at the time.
Not trying to be analytical but there is something in these details that doesn't sit right with me. There was no legitimate reason for them to be on a dead end road at the far end of it.
Anyone care to add some thoughts to this?
Patrick
Jason in Enid
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The story is BS. it makes no sense for the coins to be transported by horse and wagon like this. It would have been moved by train, it would have been more than just dimes, and it would have had armed escorts. Lastly, an incendent like this would have been in papers across the country. The fact that no stories exist is just more proof of how fake it is.
TheHunterGT
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^ This. I mean hell...the hunt began when a "guy" ran across another "guy" sitting at a campfire. That guy just happened to be a "treasure hunter" who had a story to tell.... Sounds rad.
Until somebody can provide a picture of 1907 dimes that have been found on-site....I'm a skeptic. Not a single picture ever of found dimes...just stories of guys who knew guys who knew guys.
TiredIron
Sr. Member
Just to keep this thread going....I have to give my opinion on this story. As it was said many posts earlier....the "math just doesn't add up". There is virtually nothing that makes any logical sense. Here's my pro's and con's.
CON'S- 1. I would be interested in knowing how the Denver Mint in 1907 packaged coinage. The story keeps just saying 4-6 wooden kegs of dimes. They didn't have forklifts in those days...so a keg of almost solid silver would have to be manageable. Next.....I can't see the Mint counting out 10,000...25,000...50,000 loose dimes into a wooden keg....knowing that at the receiving end somebody is going to have to count out that same huge number...to sign for them. I'm sure they didn't count them out by weight...by the pound. So to me....the whole wooden kegs of loose dimes doesn't seem plausible. I'm sure the Mint would know "exactly" how they would of been counted...and packaged in those days.
2. As everybody has already stated...there are no Newspaper stories or other documents recording this event. I can assure you if a shipment of this many coins was totally lost and unaccounted for...the Denver Mint would have a very permanent record of this loss. I haven't heard of anybody verifying this loss with the Mint..
(unless I'm mistaken..?)
3. Why would you put "one" keg each...on a wagon... each with a team of horses with a driver and maybe a co-rider....for a total of supposedly...four wagons, and drive them on a "remote route"...over treacherous terrain, to get them delivered from Denver to Phoenix, when the Railroad has been operating for nearly 25 years and train robberies have become almost non-existent.. A route that has been researched to be the worst possible choice...NOT commonly used...NO stage stops to water or change horses...
4. IF...you were driving four teams of loaded wagons and horses...over very treacherous terrain...would you be going so fast that if the first wagon crashed or went over a cliff...the following three wagons couldn't stop and would all crash and go right over the cliff behind the first one......"people please".??
5. It has been previously stated in other posts that "SOME PEOPLE" have already found several GALLONS of these Denver 1907 Dimes over fairly recent years...and others have found handfuls...yet nobody can remember exactly where. AND have you recently looked up what a Denver Mint 1907D Dime is valued at..?? Gallon or two...??
6. The stories go on to state that "Four Wagons" have been found...or whats left of them. But no other remnants....no bones of eight horses...no graves...no hoops from 4-6 wooden barrels....nothing? If any of the the drivers lived...wouldn't they have tried to collect up the dimes...wouldn't THEY have reported this...?
PRO's
1. The Denver Mint decided it was SO important to get a shipment of New Dimes to Phoenix that they sent this Wagon Train from Denver....through the Rocky Mountains (just getting to Gunnison in those days was a challenge) when they could of gone and easier Southern Route...Northern Route...or by Train. A wagon train of Four wagons with NO armed escort...and they all crashed with no survivors.
2. Because this make a great treasure story...and gives us all hope. I'm a Treasure Hunter and I want to believe it as much as the ....
The Lost Clover Leaf Gold Ingot Story....BUT as it was said earlier..."Nothing about the Math & Logic...Ads UP. PLEASE give me a rebuttal...tell me where I er in my reasoning..."give me hope to keep looking".
TiredIron
CON'S- 1. I would be interested in knowing how the Denver Mint in 1907 packaged coinage. The story keeps just saying 4-6 wooden kegs of dimes. They didn't have forklifts in those days...so a keg of almost solid silver would have to be manageable. Next.....I can't see the Mint counting out 10,000...25,000...50,000 loose dimes into a wooden keg....knowing that at the receiving end somebody is going to have to count out that same huge number...to sign for them. I'm sure they didn't count them out by weight...by the pound. So to me....the whole wooden kegs of loose dimes doesn't seem plausible. I'm sure the Mint would know "exactly" how they would of been counted...and packaged in those days.
2. As everybody has already stated...there are no Newspaper stories or other documents recording this event. I can assure you if a shipment of this many coins was totally lost and unaccounted for...the Denver Mint would have a very permanent record of this loss. I haven't heard of anybody verifying this loss with the Mint..
(unless I'm mistaken..?)3. Why would you put "one" keg each...on a wagon... each with a team of horses with a driver and maybe a co-rider....for a total of supposedly...four wagons, and drive them on a "remote route"...over treacherous terrain, to get them delivered from Denver to Phoenix, when the Railroad has been operating for nearly 25 years and train robberies have become almost non-existent..
A route that has been researched to be the worst possible choice...NOT commonly used...NO stage stops to water or change horses...4. IF...you were driving four teams of loaded wagons and horses...over very treacherous terrain...would you be going so fast that if the first wagon crashed or went over a cliff...the following three wagons couldn't stop and would all crash and go right over the cliff behind the first one......"people please".??
5. It has been previously stated in other posts that "SOME PEOPLE" have already found several GALLONS of these Denver 1907 Dimes over fairly recent years...and others have found handfuls...yet nobody can remember exactly where. AND have you recently looked up what a Denver Mint 1907D Dime is valued at..?? Gallon or two...??
6. The stories go on to state that "Four Wagons" have been found...or whats left of them. But no other remnants....no bones of eight horses...no graves...no hoops from 4-6 wooden barrels....nothing? If any of the the drivers lived...wouldn't they have tried to collect up the dimes...wouldn't THEY have reported this...?
PRO's
1. The Denver Mint decided it was SO important to get a shipment of New Dimes to Phoenix that they sent this Wagon Train from Denver....through the Rocky Mountains (just getting to Gunnison in those days was a challenge) when they could of gone and easier Southern Route...Northern Route...or by Train. A wagon train of Four wagons with NO armed escort...and they all crashed with no survivors.
2. Because this make a great treasure story...and gives us all hope. I'm a Treasure Hunter and I want to believe it as much as the ....
The Lost Clover Leaf Gold Ingot Story....BUT as it was said earlier..."Nothing about the Math & Logic...Ads UP. PLEASE give me a rebuttal...tell me where I er in my reasoning..."give me hope to keep looking".
TiredIron
Last edited:
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