Coin World War II

[Omnivorous]

I welcome the respected community!
I ask the distinguished experts of this forum, comment on ...
Excavated from the ground in Belarus.
Tell me please, what is it??
Document? Badge? Pass??
Who belonged to? What is written on the coin? At 20:00 the numbers 1 and 4? 3 WB? The letters Z and M
How to use?
Thank you all commented on the

 

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[AU24K]

Is it possible that limited quantities exist due to the possibility that the counterstamped coins were not produced by the German government directly? Dies and or other instruments to produce counterstrikes were carried by the military to produce the counterstrikes by proxy at the local level of all territory taken?

Those are some very cool specimens!

Best,
Scott

 

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[Omnivorous]

This is a coin for the occupied territories.
On the coins of the stamp, the German occupation administration in Belarus.
Issued to the commanders of battalions, for distribution among the local population.

 

[lazooro]

I have Italian coin 20 centesimi 1918 with incuse Z M

 

[lazooro]

I have Italian coin 20 centesimi 1918 with incuse Z M

is it occupied Italy 1943??

 

[Omnivorous]

It's very interesting.
Can you show the coin?

 

[pumice]

very cool

Indeed...way cool

 

[High Plains Digger]

Any one notice that the buckle has a left handed swastika and the stamp in the coin is right handed? I notice this because I used to think the right handed was correct, but I figured out that the left handed is the official and orthodox. Makes you wonder who made the stamp and got it wrong. I don't think the use of the swastika was ambidextrous, was it? Except for the back side of the flag would be right handed. My 8th grade history teacher pointed that out. Something that makes you go hmmmm....... Is it fair to suspect that the stamp was not made by meticulous German tool makers, but possibly a occupied guy? Probably drew the swastika the way he knew it but when stamped, it was backwards. Perhaps the direction of the birds head says something also. Wonder if he was shot? The die maker, not the eagle. Surely the commander that authorized this work, as a probable nazi, would have quickly noticed the mistake. Even a bigger hmmm.......He must have had reasons to let the mistake circulate.

 

[Omnivorous]

The buckle on the inside of the photo
If you look at the buckle on the outside, the swastika is rotated to the right.

My sources from Germany.
On the coins, had the right to put the stigma of an eagle, only occupation administration.

 

[High Plains Digger]

I am not sure, but I think that Omniverous' last post said the photo of the belt buckle was taken from the back side, and that is why the swastika is backwards. Could be. I just checked a couple of pieces I have and Bingo--he is right. I couldn't verify by reading gothic german to see if it is backwards or not. I am so confused right now. I guess I have to go back and watch THE COLOR OF WAR a few more times and see if it is the flags in the parade that were backwards. So, forgive my post questioning German tool and die craftsmanship.

 

[Omnivorous]

Buckle on the other side.

 

[High Plains Digger]

Ok, I am clarified, but I still have a headache! Nevertheless, the counterstamped coins are very interesting.

 

[lazooro]

It's very interesting.
Can you show the coin?

oh no...i was wrong...but perhaps somehow related incuse letter

 

[Omnivorous]

Thanks, very interestingly.
Can tell, history of a coin?
What can mean these letters how you consider …?
Year of these coins, were used last time?

You discussed it at forums?

 

[High Plains Digger]

I would suspect that these coins were dumped as soon as the Soviet troops reoccupied whatever area these were found in. There was no love lost between the Soviets and the Germans. I think I read that 900,000 troops were captured after Stalingrad was retaken, and only a few thousand ever made it back to Germany. That is an amazing number of POW camp deaths. Or murders. But there were an amazing number of deaths on the Stalingrad side, too. A lot to have hard feelings over.

 

[Omnivorous]

During, and after deliverance of occupied territories,
I think, these coins were destroyed together with their owners.

 

[lazooro]

Thanks, very interestingly.
Can tell, history of a coin?
What can mean these letters how you consider …?
Year of these coins, were used last time?

You discussed it at forums?

Have no any clue about this coin...
I thought maybe Germans incuse Italian coins like they did on Russian??
Never asked anybody about this coin so i got no history on it.
Much luck and regards from Slovenia
HH

 

[Omnivorous]

LaZoOro
Thank you too, good luck in your endeavors ...
Greetings from Russia ...

More info ...
M43 - 43rd year of the sample
WB Wehrmacht Befehlshaber (Commander of the Armed Forces)
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3812

Z M - Zahlungsmittel, Zeitmarke, Zeitmark

 

[Omnivorous]

Sorry for the bad translation Google

Request was made in Bundesarhiv.

Studies of the occupation administration in Belarus showed that the records associated with these coins - not detected.


Comment from the source Bundesarhiva Bundesarchiv - Das Bundesarchiv
A common problem in the German military history, the study records, the losses incurred during the war, documents destroyed during the fighting. In some aspects / periods of records lost or in part.


RESEARCH REPORT

record group RH 22 Befehlshaber rückwärtiges Heeresgebiet Mitte

RH 22/224 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 21.3.-31.8.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/225 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.9.-31.12.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/226 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.7.-31.12.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/227 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Juli-Dez. 41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/228 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB April-Dez. 41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/229 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia KTB Nr. 2 1.1.-30.6.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/230 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.1.-31.3.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/231 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.4.-29.6.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/232 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia KTB 1.7.-31.12.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/233 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.7.-30.10.42.

RH 22/234 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Okt. 42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/235 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Nov.-Dez. 42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/236 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Juli-Dez. 42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/247 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Qu KTB mit Anl. Nr. 1 15.5.-31.12.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/248 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Qu KTB mit Anl. Nr. 2 1.1.-30.6.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/249 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Qu KTB mit Anl. Nr. 3 1.7.-31.12.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/215 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte MilVerw. Abschlussbericht Teil 1.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/298 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte MilVerw. Abschlussbericht Teil 2.

Negative. Incl. a chapter about financial administration and tax but no information about any kind of occupation money etc.

record group RW 41 Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland

RW 41/79 WBOstland Ia Festlegung der Sicherheitsbereiche sowie Einrichtung von Wehrmacht- und Standortkommandanturenim Gebiet des Wehrmachtbefehlshabers Ostland Sept. 41.

Negative.

RW 41/49 WBOstland Ia Tätigkeitsbericht 16.7.-10.8.44.

Enthält u.a.:

Ausbau des Brückenkopfes Riga

Einsatz der Kommandanturen im Bereich Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland

Stellenbesetzung des taktischen Führungsstabes unter Generalleutnant John

Befehl zur Herauslösung des Stabes Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland und Aufteilung zwischen Armeeoberkommando 16 und 18

Übersicht der unterstellten Einheiten und Dienststellen

Monatsberichte Nr. 35 und 36, Juni - 8. Aug. 1944

Meldungen und Gefechtsberichte unterstellter Einheiten

Einsatzbefehle der Heeresgruppe Nord 1944

Negative.

RW 41/54 WBOstland Qu Besondere Anordnungen Nr. 1 – 43 4.1.-23.6.44.

Negative.

RW 41/55 WBOstland Int. 1.4.44 Sammlungen von Verfügungen des Wehrmachtbefehlshabers Ostland auf dem Gebiet der Verwaltung

Negative. Compedium of basic administrative orders regarding money, money transfer, currency regulations, prices. Payment with Rubel in the occupied Russian territory obligatory. No reference to special marking of coins, money etc.

record group RW 41 Wehrmachtsbefehlshaber Weißruthenien (former Stab „Kommandierender General der Sicherungstruppen und Befehlshaber im Heeresgebiet Mitte“. Became „Kommandierender General der Sicherungstruppen und Befehlshaber in Weißruthenien“ under command of Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland. „Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Weißruthenien“ since 18.4.1944

RW 41/58 WBWeißruthenien Ia Kriegstagebuch Nr. 6 1.1.-30.6.44.

Negative.

RW 41/60 WBWeißruthenien Ia Anl. z. KTB Nr. 1-99 1.1.-10.2.44.

Negative. Misc.

RW 41/59a WBWeißruthenien Ia Anl. z. KTB Nr. 100 – 351 11.2.-30.6.44.

Enthält:

Umgliederungen der Verbände

Auflösung von Kommandanturen

Verteiler

Einsatz von Kontrollkommisionen

Lage bei Heeresgruppe Mitte

Einsatzübersichten der Kommandanturen und Sicherungskräfte

Führerbefehl Nr. 11 "Feste Plätze"

Korpsbefehle

Verwaltungskarte

Polnische „Bandenbewegung“

„Aktivierung des Bandenkampfes“

Negative.

RW 41/59b WBWeißruthenien Ia Anl. z. KTB Nr. 100 – 351 11.2.-30.6.44.

Enthält:

Umgliederungen der Verbände

Auflösung von Kommandanturen

Verteiler

Einsatz von Kontrollkommisionen

Lage bei Heeresgruppe Mitte

Einsatzübersichten der Kommandanturen und Sicherungskräfte

Führerbefehl Nr. 11 "Feste Plätze"

Korpsbefehle

Verwaltungskarte

Polnische „Bandenbewegung“

„Aktivierung des Bandenkampfes“

Negative.

RW 41/61 WBWeißruthenien Ia Tagesmeldungen unterstellter Einheiten 1.1.-30.6.44.

Negative. Incl. reports on Partisan activties only.

RW 41/63 WBWeißruthenien Ia Kriegstagebuch Nr. 7 1.7.-13.11.44.

Enthält:

Vorgesetzte Dienststellen: 1. Juli - 10. Juli 1944 Heeresgruppe Mitte

11. Juli - 13. Nov. 1944 Panzer Armeeoberkommando 3

Negative.

RW 41/64 WBWeißruthenien Ia Anlagen zum Kriegstagebuch Nr. 7 4.7.-16.9.44.

Enthält:

Sammlung von Versprengten

Kriegsgliederung

Übernahme der Befehlsführung im Raume Kurland

Übernahme der Aufgaben des Korück 590 mit Unterstellung der territorialen Dienststellen in Ostpreußen

Einsatz der Kommandanturen und Bereichsgrenzen

Einsatzübersicht der Kommandanturen und Bereichsgrenzen in Kurland

Negative.

RW 41/66 WBWeißruthenien Ia Berichte April 44.

Enthält:

Monatsberichte für April 1944 mit Einsatzkarte der unterstellten Verbände

Kriegsgliederungen

Tätigkeitsberichte

Negative.

RW 41/69 WBWeißruthenien Qu Kriegstagebuch Nr. 6 mit Anlagen 1.1.-30.6.44.

Enthält:

Stammlager 352 Minsk

Personelle Einsparungen

Kriegsgliederungen der Versorgungstruppen

Einsatz der 12./ Sicherungsregiment 51

Monatsberichte der Abteilungen

Negative.

RW 41/72 WBWeißruthenien Qu Kriegstagebuch Nr. 7 mit Anlagen 1.7.-13.7.44.

Enthält:

Geschäftseinteilung

Besondere Anordnungen für die Versorgung

Tätigkeitsberichte

Negative.

RW 41/70 WBWeißruthenien Qu Anl. z. KTB Bd. 1: 1. Jan. - 31. Mai 1944

Enthält:

Übersicht über Zug- und Waggongestellungen

Negative.

RW 41/71 WBWeißruthenien Qu Anl. z. KTB Bd. 2: 1. Jan. - 31. Mai 1944

Enthält:

Aufstellungen über zu zerstörende Objekte bei den Feldkommandantur 660, 812, 184, Wehrmachtskommandantur Minsk, Oberfeldkommandantur 400

Negative.

record group RW 31 Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206

RW 31/791Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 1. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/792Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 2. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/793Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 3. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/794Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 4. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/795Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 1. Vierteljahr 1943.

Negative.

RW 31/796Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 2. Vierteljahr 1943.

Negative.

RW 31/797Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 3. Vierteljahr 1943. Bd. 1: 1943-1943.

Negative.

RW 31/798Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 3. Vierteljahr 1943. Bd. 2: 1943-1943.

Negative.

RW 31/799Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 1. Okt. 1943 - 9. Jan. 1944.

Negative.

RW 31/807Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, Außenstelle 49, 26. Febr. - 31. März 1943.

Negative.

RW 31/808Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, Außenstelle 49, 30. Aug. 3. Dez. 1941.

Negative.

RW 31/956Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch Außenstelle Newel, 6. Aug. - 31. Okt. 1941.

Negative.

record group RHD 72 Kommandanten rückw. Armee- u. Heeresgebiete (official prints)

Negative. No prints re Russia/money etc.

record group RWD 17 OKW Wehrwirtschafts- u. Rüstungsstab (official prints)

Negative. No prints re Russia/money etc.

record group RWD 24 Territoriale Befehlshaber in der SU (official prints)

RWD 24/1 Verordnungsblatt des Wehrmachtsbefehlshaber Ostland Nr. 1-30 1941-44.

Negative.

..........record group RH 49 Einrichtungen des Kriegsgefangenenwesens

Checked finding aid online. In the finding aid are references to foreign money confiscated from POWs but nothing about special camp money etc.

..........record group R 6 Reichsministerium für die besetzten Ostgebiete (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

..........record group R 93 Generalkommissar für Weißruthenien in Minsk
1941-1945 (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

..........record group R 90 Reichskommissar für das Ostland 1941-1945 (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

..........record group R 91 Gebietskommissar im Geschäftsbereich des Reichskommissars für das Ostland 1941-1945 (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

MSG 2/10249 Fotoalbum Ost- und Westfront 1939 – 1943.

Enthält auch:

verschiedene Flugblätter

Besatzungsgeld

Negative. Incl. 2 Rubel notes without NS-signs.

RW 19/913 OKW/Wehrwirtschafts- und Rüstungsamt Maßnahmen der Reichsverteidigung 1941.

Enthält:

Prägung von Münzen und Druck von Rentenbankscheinen

(Aufstellung), 25. Apr. 1941

Vorläufige Abschlußzahlen für die im Osten 1941

angefallene Luftwaffenbeute (Schaublatt), Dez. 1941

Negative.

 

[Omnivorous]

Despite the fact that the documents in the archives have not yet been found, I insist on a version of the document, this was written, the source of the Bundesarhiva.

Imagining the coins in the occupied territory, it is necessary to understand who could pick up and use a coin in the occupied territories.
It may be just what you category of people from the Soviet collaborators working in the occupied territories to Germany voluntarily (spies, informers, informants, etc.)

My guess is that this coin - the document has confirmed a German dealer, Alfred Beck Beck Militaria - Ihr Fachhändler für militärische Antiquitäten aus allen Epochen, a few months ago, explaining that this document does not say what kind of document.

A comment from one of Russian forums.
Story of a German veteran of five years ago, that the coins spread the battalion commanders, among the local population - does not contradict the version of the one who wanted to, he took ...

A comment from one of Russian forums forums.
Such a stigma, seen on a coin, even in 199 × g for 15 kopecks in his youth did not show any interest.

The coin, marked abbreviation, as it is today and the driver's license or insurance certificate, there is a name that makes sense, there is a print, and expiry date. At 4 shared coins have it all in acronyms, and understanding the meanings of the stigma of one character to another.

One symbol, emblem of the Soviet Union, destroyed another symbol, an eagle with a swastika.
One explanation - the current, a Soviet officer, acting at the same time, a German, a voluntary worker, etc.
M43 - 43rd year of the sample document.
WB Wehrmacht Befehlshaber (Commander of the Armed Forces) - who have been issued at the last stage, the unit commander Axis History Factbook: Abbreviations - W
It does not matter that some documents can not see the M4, those who need, and so aware of them, the most important figure is screwed into the stamp, which put the year of issue and validity of the document (temporary one year).
At number 3 on the outer edges, visible angular shape hexagon, the year of issue and validity of the document.
I suppose that number 3 is carved on the hexagon which is screwed into the stamp.
No. 4, is far from the number 3, the distance between the digits, allows using a key or other tool, it is easy to replace, the figure of the stamp on the desired year, could be placed over the years of occupation numbers 1-2-3-4.
ZM - Zeitmarke, Zeitmark - namely, a temporary document, which was valid for one year of issuance.

The coins were dug up in Belarus, a small heap, one man with a metal detector, about 3 years ago ...
All sold out, but perhaps, in his several thousand coins still exist, as these two ...

Coins from the M43 WB - are worn, there are traces of use, the stigma of an eagle and the letters on the reverse of the outer edges are smoothed over a coin hanging in the pocket throughout the year, among his own kind of 20-30, where she very well could hide, well is sometimes used for other purposes.
Coins from the M43 WB, having fulfilled his own, were returned to former owners, their commander unit - WB Wehrmacht Befehlshaber (Commander of the Armed Forces), which they gave the new M44 year.
The old, 43 years old, lay with the new documents, forms, blanks with the seal of an eagle.
In issuing the document, left, only to put a stamp of release ...

The coins with one eagle, well see that the edge of the stigma of characters do not have the marks of use, wear, like a coin with the M43 WB.

Blanks, blank stamped for new documents were in one place with the old, the sample 43 years old, used documents.

 

[Omnivorous]

Comment from the source Bundesarhiva.

If the coins were Abwehr business (espionage etc.) record group

RW 49 Nachgeordnete Dienststellen und Einheiten des OKW/ Amtes Ausland / Abwehr

would be interesting. The RG includes the surviving records of Abwehr units in Russia but it’s only a small rest of what existed originally.
Checked the finding aid. The record titles do not refer to identity discs (but this was not to expect because the finding aid titles are quite general). But to check all Russia records would take plenty of time and the chance for success is very small. That’s why I can not recommend research.


Possibly the coins were issued by a local commander or secret service officer. That means they could have been only of local use. Then there is no chance to find information because of small units and local commanders no records survived.


Often I saw forms and orders for identity cards for militias and collaborators but saw nothing about secret identity discs for Russians. But the existence of identity cards does not automatically exlude identity discs.

But most of the records of the secret service units are lost. The records in RW 49 are only a small rest. That means the chance that we can find docs in the Abwehr records is very small. Notwithstanding cheching the files would need plenty of time. That means the research will be expensive and the chance for success is very small.


But so many unauthorized things happend that it makes no sense to say: Impossible.