Club claim question

[LRC253]

I'd like to first start this post by saying I'm not going to say any names unless I feel like it's necessary but I'm really trying to get down to the bottom of my concern.

I joined a well known club and recently while I was doing some research found out that half of the "claims" this club is advertising aren't actually claimed at all. According to lr2000 there aren't even any closed claims on the land that were theirs either.....nothing..
There are 2 in the owners/clubs name and the rest are owned by someone else who probably is just getting paid to use the claim.
I was also just told that 1 of their claims is on top of newer stream that was man made because the new Hwy was built on the old channel.

To me it feels like they are taking advantage of people, and the more I look into this, the more the pieces fall into place.
I would like to know if anyone has any input on this and if this is a common thing for clubs to do? or are my suspicions right?

 

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[Doug Watson]

I guess I was typing the same time as you were Bonaro as I repeated some of what you said.

 

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[Clay Diggins]

I have a different view of clubs. I think prospecting clubs are a good thing.

1. Prospecting clubs help the new prospector learn and provide experiences that can lead to actual successful mining or just an enjoyable outdoor hobby. That experience would be hard to come by without the help of clubs.

2. Prospecting clubs also provide a place to find gold without learning the ropes of land and claim status. That can be a huge benefit to people who just want to try prospecting out or go digging their friends for the occasional weekend.

It's the second one where many prospecting clubs fail. A lot of the smaller clubs just don't have the knowledge to properly locate and maintain claims. Most folks that manage prospecting clubs started with a club and never learned the trade beyond hobby prospecting and find themselves in way over their heads when it comes to maintaining claims status.

It's not just small clubs either. The largest club in the United States has "claims" that have never been recorded, claims that are mapped sometimes miles from their actual locations and claims that have no locatable minerals. They lost all their claims in California a few years ago because they forgot to send a check for the annual fees.

The largest club in Arizona just had to relocate dozens of void claims, at great expense to their members, because they didn't understand the requirement to prove a claim over 20 acres before they, as a club, could own it. The second largest club just went through the same process last year. Both clubs had to give up good claims and now have a much bigger annual bill for BLM fees.

Then there are the fly by night prospecting clubs. These may hang around for a few years and then just close with some weak excuse. I've seen five or six of these clubs just on Rich Hill over the last 15 years. They make claims, collect dues to prospect them and then sell the claims and close the club. They usually send a "sorry" email to their members before they leave town with the money.

Another "club" there collected dues and sent their members to other people's claims because the club owner didn't have any claims. One of the longer lived clubs there has been selling claims, raising their rates and sending their members to claims they don't own for several years.

A club out of Quartzsite lost all their claims last year due to claiming small miners on too many claims. This was a good club run by really nice people with some great claims. It's lack of knowledge that makes so many of these clubs fail. There are some bad apples in the club business but the majority of clubs aren't run to make a profit or to take people's money without delivering.

It's wise to check out a club before joining. Any club. LRC253 did the right thing checking out the club as he did. I don't know which club he is writing about but I'm not surprised by what he discovered about them. If more people did the research before joining a club the honest club managers would have to do a better job and the shady operators would move on to selling time shares or snake oil. That would help the reputation of prospectors and help newbies from having a bad experience that turns them away from prospecting.

Support your local prospecting club. We often pay dues to support good clubs even though we don't prospect club claims. Find the good clubs and give them your support.

Heavy Pans

 

[azblackbird]

Great info Clay. There's way too much virgin (unclaimed) gold bearing ground out there for me join a club. I'd rather venture out with the hopes of hitting a nice deposit, rather than be confined to something that's been pounded to death over the years. That's just me though...

 

[goldenIrishman]

Great info Clay. There's way too much virgin (unclaimed) gold bearing ground out there for me join a club. I'd rather venture out with the hopes of hitting a nice deposit, rather than be confined to something that's been pounded to death over the years. That's just me though...

NOPE!!! Not just you Blackbird! I'd much rather have my own claims or do "free style" prospecting than dig through others tailings on a club claim. Of course if I happen to hit a nice area while free styling I'll file on it asap.

 

[azblackbird]

Of course if I happen to hit a nice area while free styling I'll file on it asap.

Why would you want to do that? Filing a claim in an area that has had little (if any) activity in many years is just alerting somebody that there must be something worth filing for. I'm working a remote area right now that historically has produced 1/2 ounce per ton. I know for a fact the early day prospectors didn't cover every wash, gully, hillside, hilltop, etc. Back in the late 1980's there were a ton of claims (mostly by scammers) filed in the general area. Since then... nada! If I was to ever hit a nice deposit, there's no way in hell I'd even think about filing a claim. Even though the area is fairly remote and hard to get too, a claim with a nice GOLD STRIKE has a way of enticing those with the means and the funds to find a way to get to just about anyplace on the planet. You do what you want, and I wish you the best of luck... but for me... mums the word!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Why would you want to do that? Filing a claim in an area that has had little (if any) activity in many years is just alerting somebody that there must be something worth filing for. I'm working a remote area right now that historically has produced 1/2 ounce per ton. I know for a fact the early day prospectors didn't cover every wash, gully, hillside, hilltop, etc. Back in the late 1980's there were a ton of claims (mostly by scammers) filed in the general area. Since then... nada! If I was to ever hit a nice deposit, there's no way in hell I'd even think about filing a claim. Even though the area is fairly remote and hard to get too, a claim with a nice GOLD STRIKE has a way of enticing those with the means and the funds to find a way to get to just about anyplace on the planet. You do what you want, and I wish you the best of luck... but for me... mums the word!

What is the legality of mining on 'not your claim'?

 

[azblackbird]

What is the legality of mining on 'not your claim'?

Depends on how much of a "disturbance" you're creating. Simple drywashing, sampling, or the digging out a vein (in my opinion) doesn't warrant the filing of a claim until you think you have commercial viability. Once you've opened that can of worms, you might as well go big time and start playing the game with investors, geologists, drillers, environmentalists, filing of your NOI's, POO's, and start bringing in the heavy equipment and really go to town.

Speaking for myself, until I hit that point in time... mums the word.

 

[Bonaro]

What is the legality of mining on 'not your claim'?

Unclaimed Federally managed land is open for prospecting to anyone, with a few exceptions. If you want to secure the area you picked so others cannot mine it you must file a claim

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

What is the legal distinction between prospecting/mining? And are you supposed to have a claim before the latter?

 

[fowledup]

I would say legally they are one in the same, the difference being; when prospecting your are searching or looking for it, and when mining you have already located, claimed, and are actively extracting it. "It" being what ever material you are searching for.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

So then there is no limit to how much material you can mine under the guise of prospecting?

 

[azblackbird]

So then there is no limit to how much material you can mine under the guise of prospecting?

Yes... there is. Depends upon whether your on FS land or BLM land. Most generally it's 5 acres or 1000 tons, and it all needs to be non-mechanical without creating a "significant disturbance". Meaning no bulldozers or excavators.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

What about recirc or high bank? (pumps) I suppose gotta throw dry washers in there too.

 

[azblackbird]

What about recirc or high bank? (pumps) I suppose gotta throw dry washers in there too.

Depends on who the land managers are and which state you reside. Here in my neck of the woods, the land managers are okay with us running small engine processing equipment for casual use. Where you reside... maybe not.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

That mechanical idea could even apply to a hand suction tool, or hand powered shaker if it had a gear, crank or similar moving parts to transfer motion.

 

[fowledup]

As long as you are within land use restrictions, such as a hands and pans only area or non mechanical mean only, I would say what ever means you feel are prudent for you would apply.

 

[fowledup]

That mechanical idea could even apply to a hand suction tool, or hand powered shaker if it had a gear, crank or similar moving parts to transfer motion.

Yes it could, the regulations are at times rather ambiguous, best to get a clarification in writing from the regulating agency in charge of the area you want to go, before you go. Each area is often different as they often approach the laws and regulations as "subject to interpretation".
*Get the response from as high up the food chain as you can, as obviously a supervisors interpretation would out weigh the area rangers, or law enforcement officers.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I would think the mechanized prohibitions would be intended for the materials removal/collection end of things. Pumping water in a recirc really doesn't affect the environment. Ditto with drywash. Perhaps that argument could be made if they jump on pumping.

 

[fowledup]

I would think the mechanized prohibitions would be intended for the materials removal/collection end of things. Pumping water in a recirc really doesn't affect the environment. Ditto with drywash. Perhaps that argument could be made if they jump on pumping.

Nope the methods are one and the same whether or not your prospecting or mining

 

[Bonaro]

I would think the mechanized prohibitions would be intended for the materials removal/collection end of things. Pumping water in a recirc really doesn't affect the environment. Ditto with drywash. Perhaps that argument could be made if they jump on pumping.

As already stated, the rules are vague and much depends on how far left the ranger for the area leans.
Prospecting is the search of the deposit.
Mining is the removal of the located deposit.
A claim is your exclusive ownership of the deposit